What belief in God really means.

brokenbutnotbeat said:
i believe in a creator, i think it's important because, he gave us free-will, but i think it's important to acknowledge the creator, like a father.
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It's difficult to acknowledge something you don't believe exists.
Sure, if you believe, then feel free to acknowledge that a creator exist. But that is just saying what is important once you believe. But what is so important about believing? Do you think one can force yourself to believe?
i think it has both to do with consequence and rationality, believing could give you strength and a reason to live, (just believing, whether or not a creator exists).
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How do you propose one go about believing in something one can not rationally accept? Can you force yourself to believe that 1+1=3, for example?
I wholly agree that belief itself can be of great benefit. But that is not reason itself to believe, at least not for me. I see it as nothing but an appeal to consequence.
i think denying the existence of a creator outright is ignorant since they can't be sure, and agnostics don't completely close themselves off to the possibility that god exists.
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If by "denying the existence outright" you mean "believe does not exist" then not all atheists do believe that. I would hesitate about saying that a large majority do not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was that.
Most atheists simply reject/deny the belief that a creator exists but do not go so far as to believe that a creator does not exist. Most atheists, in my experience, are agnostic - their agnosticism leads them to be atheists.
 
Sarkus said:
It's difficult to acknowledge something you don't believe exists.
Sure, if you believe, then feel free to acknowledge that a creator exist. But that is just saying what is important once you believe. But what is so important about believing? Do you think one can force yourself to believe?
How do you propose one go about believing in something one can not rationally accept? Can you force yourself to believe that 1+1=3, for example?
I wholly agree that belief itself can be of great benefit. But that is not reason itself to believe, at least not for me. I see it as nothing but an appeal to consequence.
If by "denying the existence outright" you mean "believe does not exist" then not all atheists do believe that. I would hesitate about saying that a large majority do not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was that.
Most atheists simply reject/deny the belief that a creator exists but do not go so far as to believe that a creator does not exist. Most atheists, in my experience, are agnostic - their agnosticism leads them to be atheists.
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as for beliving 1+1=3, it makes no sense, and is ridiculous, but i think god is very different from math. because I believe god is rational and i have all the proof i need.

well i have heard from some atheists that they do reject god, i know I can't speak for everybody.

i can't say people can't be good without good, but i think belief will surely walk you down the right path, and just like knowing that committing a crime leads to consequences (imprisonment), and it keeps people in check, similarly believing in consequences can keep people in check knowing that not you're judged even after death.
 
Daecon said:
If the only thing keeping you from raping, murdering and pillaging is the threat of eternal damnation in hell, they you're obviously not a moral person to begin with.

Check out Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development.
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not saying everybody needs to believe in consequences after death to not murder or rape, but I don't see any harm in believing there may be consequences even after death.
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
as for beliving 1+1=3, it makes no sense, and is ridiculous, but i think god is very different from math. because I believe god is rational and i have all the proof i need.
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What "proof" do you have?
well i have heard from some atheists that they do reject god, i know I can't speak for everybody.
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Some do. Many don't. Please don't lump all atheists with what is, at least on this site, a minority.
i can't say people can't be good without good, but i think belief will surely walk you down the right path, and just like knowing that committing a crime leads to consequences (imprisonment), and it keeps people in check, similarly believing in consequences can keep people in check knowing that not you're judged even after death.
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If you feel you need to believe to keep you in line, that's for you to decide. But for those of us that do not believe in God, we also don't believe in an afterlife - so the idea of believing in something to make us behave so that we are judged favourably at a time when we think we are non-existent is a non-starter. It's a cyclical argument - you need to believe in God and an afterlife in order for God to be a meaningful deterrent for your time in the afterlife, a consequence that you see is justification for belief in God. But if you don't believe in either then there is no need to have such a belief.
Simples, really.
 
Sarkus said:
What "proof" do you have?
Some do. Many don't. Please don't lump all atheists with what is, at least on this site, a minority.
If you feel you need to believe to keep you in line, that's for you to decide. But for those of us that do not believe in God, we also don't believe in an afterlife - so the idea of believing in something to make us behave so that we are judged favourably at a time when we think we are non-existent is a non-starter. It's a cyclical argument - you need to believe in God and an afterlife in order for God to be a meaningful deterrent for your time in the afterlife, a consequence that you see is justification for belief in God. But if you don't believe in either then there is no need to have such a belief.
Simples, really.
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proof of a creator is everywhere in this complicated world, most don't see it that way, proof of good comes into you when you see things from a different perspective.

at some point you might find god or not, you never know. just the fact that people can tell good from evil is proof that god exists,

i don't need god to keep in line, but i do fear consequences, belief is a system that is fail-safe, in my opinion, believing in god is no harm, and gives you more reason to be a good person.
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
proof of a creator is everywhere in this complicated world, most don't see it that way, proof of good comes into you when you see things from a different perspective.

at some point you might find god or not, you never know. just the fact that people can tell good from evil is proof that god exists,

i don't need god to keep in line, but i do fear consequences, belief is a system that is fail-safe, in my opinion, believing in god is no harm, and gives you more reason to be a good person.
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Perhaps the Ancient History of god would " enlighten "
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
proof of a creator is everywhere in this complicated world, most don't see it that way, proof of good comes into you when you see things from a different perspective.

at some point you might find god or not, you never know. just the fact that people can tell good from evil is proof that god exists,

i don't need god to keep in line, but i do fear consequences, belief is a system that is fail-safe, in my opinion, believing in god is no harm, and gives you more reason to be a good person.
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And it makes otherwise good people do evil things. And if your proof is subjective, then it's worthless.
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
It can make people do evil things? can you explain?
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Sure, as with Christianity for instance. It encourages people to beat their children, hate gay people, own slaves, commit genocide, stone adulterers, and ignore environmental issues. Islam creates a condescending attitude towards non-believers that may rise to the level of actual violence, and it treats women like property. Judaism is also anti-women's rights, and they cut off baby penises and suck the blood, which is a vector for disease. Buddhism in Japan has historically encouraged a detached dispassionate worldview between soldiers and the war they fight, making war crimes easier on the psyche.
 
spidergoat said:
Sure, as with Christianity for instance. It encourages people to beat their children, hate gay people, own slaves, commit genocide, stone adulterers, and ignore environmental issues. Islam creates a condescending attitude towards non-believers that may rise to the level of actual violence, and it treats women like property. Judaism is also anti-women's rights, and they cut off baby penises and suck the blood, which is a vector for disease. Buddhism in Japan has historically encouraged a detached dispassionate worldview between soldiers and the war they fight, making war crimes easier on the psyche.
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Well i for one don't agree with everything religion has to say, anyone who lets their religious beliefs get in the way of being a good person is unfit for society. I think the books are a distorted version of god's words, I am free to choose what i have to do and not do. so I don't condone stoning, or violence of any kind.

There are lot of people who do really bad things in the name of god, but they just use god's name
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
Well i for one don't agree with everything religion has to say, anyone who lets their religious beliefs get in the way of being a good person is unfit for society. I think the books are a distorted version of god's words, I am free to choose what i have to do and not do. so I don't condone stoning, or violence of any kind.

There are lot of people who do really bad things in the name of god, but they just use god's name
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Religion is the source of the rules that you think leads to better behavior. It seems you agree that this notion is not always true. And I don't care if religion does some good things if it also does awful things. We don't need it to be good.
 
brokenbutnotbeat said:
proof of a creator is everywhere in this complicated world, most don't see it that way, proof of good comes into you when you see things from a different perspective.
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I see no proof of God, and no one has yet provided me with any, regardless of perspective I have taken.
at some point you might find god or not, you never know. just the fact that people can tell good from evil is proof that god exists,
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No it is not.
First there is the entire question of whether good and evil actually have objective meaning, or whether they are merely subjective views.
Secondly, that someone can tell what they think is good from what they think is evil is merely proof of a brain capable of processing information to cording to a set of value judgements it has developed over the course of its life and/or through its DNA.
But if you can explain to me why you think it proof of God, please do.
i don't need god to keep in line, but i do fear consequences, belief is a system that is fail-safe, in my opinion, believing in god is no harm, and gives you more reason to be a good person.
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That believing in god is no harm, is fail-safe, is really just Pascal's wager.
As for giving me more reason to be a good person, wanting to live a happy life is sufficient reason for me to be a good person. I find I am much happier doing what I consider good things rather than what I consider to be evil things. Society treats me better, which fuels my happiness. I need no belief in God to make me do good things out of fear.
And is it not better that we willingly do such good things because we want to of our own volition rather than because of threats?
 
Sarkus said:
I see no proof of God, and no one has yet provided me with any, regardless of perspective I have taken.
No it is not.
First there is the entire question of whether good and evil actually have objective meaning, or whether they are merely subjective views.
Secondly, that someone can tell what they think is good from what they think is evil is merely proof of a brain capable of processing information to cording to a set of value judgements it has developed over the course of its life and/or through its DNA.
But if you can explain to me why you think it proof of God, please do.
That believing in god is no harm, is fail-safe, is really just Pascal's wager.
As for giving me more reason to be a good person, wanting to live a happy life is sufficient reason for me to be a good person. I find I am much happier doing what I consider good things rather than what I consider to be evil things. Society treats me better, which fuels my happiness. I need no belief in God to make me do good things out of fear.
And is it not better that we willingly do such good things because we want to of our own volition rather than because of threats?
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I can't separate good and evil from god, and we all look at things in different ways.

it is better if we willingly do good things of our own volition, not everyone needs consequences to be good, but some do. It keeps them in check.
 
spidergoat said:
Religion is the source of the rules that you think leads to better behavior. It seems you agree that this notion is not always true. And I don't care if religion does some good things if it also does awful things. We don't need it to be good.
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i think i should clarify that I find flaws in religion, or religious books at least, at times i wonder why god lets such horrible things happen, maybe he's not a perfect being, maybe he just created us, and has his own problems, maybe he likes being praised, and doesn't like it when people don't acknowledge him.
 
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