What a lovely example

[Raithere]

Where did everyone's brains go? All of a sudden the threads are flooded with vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, misunderstanding, name calling, bigotry, swearing, racism, and hatred.

I simply cannot believe that people who derive their values from God almighty would behave in such a hypocritical fashion or that their stated beliefs and values have so little to do with their every day behavior. That these values fashioned by the Lord are tossed away in the heat of anger only to be supplanted by that which is anathema to those values.

Oh, wait, what am I saying? Of course I can.

Thanks to all of you for providing such a wonderful example of how much religion contributes to peace and understanding in the world.

NOT

~Raithere

 

[guthrie]

"Hear Hear"

 

[Cris]

But where else does one go to have a good fight?

I suspect religion and territory are the two most divisive issues in the history of mankind.

And guess what, in Israel the two issues are combined.

 

[stretched]

Mmmm...

Methinks religious dogma and doctrine be the root of all evil. One is taught how to think, respond and act. Thereby disempowering our very own wonderfully capable human intuition regarding our actions and attitudes.

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind...

 

[Bells]

Well said Raith. You hit the nail right on the head

 

[thefountainhed]

Because I also can

Raithere,

Although this does not apply to me, I simply cannot help myself when I see crap like the above.


Talk about a thread filled with "vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, and misunderstanding"….


Vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity and misunderstanding:

Whose brain's are you talking of? Did some brain eating monsters steal everyone’s brains? Why were yours spared—or are you also brain dead? Who are the individuals who DERIVE their lives from a "God almighty"? What is hypocritical about their acts?

hypocrisy, insentitivity, misunderstanding:

That these values fashioned by the Lord are tossed away in the heat of anger only to be supplanted by that which is anathema to those values

I could have sworn you did not believe in "the Lord". If you in fact do not, then to what esteem do you hold these values to make such a statement?

Thanks to all of you for providing such a wonderful example of how much religion contributes to peace and understanding in the world.

I would like to thank you for showing me that you are also not beyond the inane and the hypocritical.

 

[MShark]

Raithere:

Are you saying that religion causes: stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, misunderstanding, name calling, bigotry, swearing, racism, and hatred?

I think people would do all of that on their own. It is possible that even in the community of non belivers you might find some of these same characteristics.

Just because God chooses to be associated with us doesn't make her bad.

 

[Cris]

Rait,

QED.

 

[wesmorris]

What 'lovely example' do you have in mind Raith?

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Cris
But where else does one go to have a good fight?

I love a good fight but whatever happened to a good clean fight? It's not the proclivity to argue that I'm against; it's just that I would think that people who espouse 'high' moral values would be a bit chagrined to display such behavior.

Originally posted by thefountainhed
Talk about a thread filled with "vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, and misunderstanding"….

Where did I say that everyone was guilty of such behavior? I'm simply attempting to hold up a mirror for those who seem to miss the fact that their actions belie their words; or rather their words belie their words. Certainly I have been guilty of such at times but rarely with the displays of rage and hatred that have been flavoring this forum lately and when addressed I quickly repent. I decided specifically not to mention individuals, as the trend seems broad enough to address publicly; though I did have a few people in mind when I began this thread; if the shoe fits...

Originally posted by MShark
I think people would do all of that on their own. It is possible that even in the community of non belivers you might find some of these same characteristics.

I wouldn't say that it's a cause, as much as it's an excuse. Nor are non-believers free of such, people generally have strong tribal and xenophobic tendencies. Still it seems rather poignant to me that something intended for one purpose works so dramatically for the exact opposite effect.


All:
What I'm attempting to address is the irony of the situation. Where behavior belies proclaimed intent, where practical application not only falls short of the desired results but actively works against it.

Indeed what does it say about a paradigm when its application seems to be so inherently self-contradictory, when its effect is so destructive? And at what level can the paradigm be considered self-annulling?

~Raithere

 

[Tiassa]

How odd

Do you folks protesting really not get it?

 

[MShark]

Love God, Love your neighbor, Love your enemy, Forgive those that want to be forgiven, Turn the other cheek, and Do not judge.

Other than loving God is there really anything wrong with the message.

I do not know of a better code to live by for me or for the people I come into contact with.

 

[Raithere]

The exception proves the rule.

In contrast we might consider this:

"Hindu helps faithful Muslims fast"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3232850.stm

While such behavior is not unknown, we might take note that it seems a rare enough occurrence to spark a journalist's interest and get into the daily news.

~Raithere

 

[Cris]

Mshark,

Love God, Love your neighbor, Love your enemy, Forgive those that want to be forgiven, Turn the other cheek, and Do not judge.

Other than loving God is there really anything wrong with the message.

I do not know of a better code to live by for me or for the people I come into contact with.

If this was universally accepted then it would have real merit. But in practice if you show love for your enemy your enemy tends to take advantage of that and you die. Turning the other cheek tends to have the same adverse effect. But for true Christians it should not be a problem if they die while following these teachings since the real reward will come in eternal paradise after death.

But let’s agree here, there are very very few true Christians who would be prepared to follow such teachings, hence the hypocrisy of Christianity. As our born again Christian leader Bush demonstrates so well that when enemies strike then he will respond with maximum force and kill as many as needed, the innocent and the guilty, in his own defense.

Islam of course has no such teachings and actually has the opposite; Muslims are encouraged to defend their faith against enemies and we see Muslims do this daily, and often very aggressively.

In reality those who follow a religion are little different to anyone else. If they are attacked, or their beliefs are attacked then they generally react by defending themselves and quite fiercely. The conduct in this forum seems to accurately reflect those attitudes.

The issue of non believers is not so clear since as a group they have made no moralistic statements about how they should behave. Raithere’s arguments about brains though does seem to apply in some cases.

As a non believer who expects no reward after death then I will indeed defend myself and will kill doing so and without hesitation if needed. I also make no claims that I should be nice to everyone or that universal love is a good idea or even desirable. I believe there are bad people and unpleasant people as well as good and pleasant people, and that I have a right to defend myself against the bad and at their cost if needed.

But I do follow a guiding principle that everyone should be free to do as they wish except if their actions would interfere with the freedom of others. IOW I don’t care what you do or believe but just don’t get in my way or try to force your ideas on me. Unfortunately religions and especially Christianity do tend to interfere with my freedom and hence I feel bound to oppose them.

 

[thefountainhed]

Raithere,

Where did I say that everyone was guilty of such behavior?

Who cares? In the unknown that is your "intention", we could all be the accused.

I'm simply attempting to hold up a mirror for those who seem to miss the fact that their actions belie their words; or rather their words belie their words.

And I am saying that you have not earned that freaking right! You should have looked into that damned mirror yourself when you first envisioned this thread.

Certainly I have been guilty of such at times but rarely with the displays of rage and hatred that have been flavoring this forum lately and when addressed I quickly repent.

WOW. Guess what? I blew off a guy's head the other day for he was annoying the living hell out of me. I felt very, very sorry the next moment after I blew his head off. Should I escape the death penalty for I "repented"? And where the hell does an atheist like yourself get off using words like "repent'?

I decided specifically not to mention individuals, as the trend seems broad enough to address publicly; though I did have a few people in mind when I began this thread; if the shoe fits...

Fuck this hypocritical cowardice. This stupid thread was named " a lovely example"! So name that freaking example! Perhaps, you were subconsciously telling us all that this thread is the loveliest example of all, in regards to a thread filled with "vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, misunderstanding, name calling, bigotry, swearing, racism, and hatred. "

What I'm attempting to address is the irony of the situation. Where behavior belies proclaimed intent, where practical application not only falls short of the desired results but actively works against it.

Do you have no freaking clue what hypocritical or irony is?

Indeed what does it say about a paradigm when its application seems to be so inherently self-contradictory, when its effect is so destructive? And at what level can the paradigm be considered self-annulling?

What is there to say? Stop your self-righteous nonsense! At what level can the "paradigm" be self-defeating? Case and point this ridiculous thread! I would love to have seen the response this thread would have garnered were it onkinrus spewing the nonsense you spewed Raith.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Raithere
Where did everyone's brains go? All of a sudden the threads are flooded with vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, misunderstanding, name calling, bigotry, swearing, racism, and hatred.

I simply cannot believe that people who derive their values from God almighty would behave in such a hypocritical fashion or that their stated beliefs and values have so little to do with their every day behavior. That these values fashioned by the Lord are tossed away in the heat of anger only to be supplanted by that which is anathema to those values.

Oh, wait, what am I saying? Of course I can.

Thanks to all of you for providing such a wonderful example of how much religion contributes to peace and understanding in the world.

NOT

~Raithere

Nice post Raithere, and I am sure that special person got the message and behaving or atleast trying. But thanks for atleast making a point.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by thefountainhed
Who cares? In the unknown that is your "intention", we could all be the accused.

Indeed. Take it as a call towards introspection, as it was intended.

And I am saying that you have not earned that freaking right!

Says who; you? I think not. I've participated in this forum for long enough to earn the right to comment upon the trends I see. Not to mention freedom of speech and all that.

You should have looked into that damned mirror yourself when you first envisioned this thread.

I do. That's pretty much the point. If you cannot see that then I suggest you leave alone what you do not understand.

Should I escape the death penalty for I "repented"?

Where am I calling for the death penalty, thefountainhed? I'm attempting to examine the paradigm at work here, the contrast between what is declared and what is done.

And where the hell does an atheist like yourself get off using words like "repent'?

I fail to see a problem, perhaps you're unfamiliar with the definition:
repent

1. To feel pain, sorrow, or regret, for what one has done or omitted to do.
2. To change the mind, or the course of conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction.
(Webster's Unabridged)

Fuck this hypocritical cowardice. This stupid thread was named " a lovely example"! So name that freaking example!

The funny thing is I wasn't thinking of you at all at the time. On several occasions I've addressed specific individuals in the appropriate thread but it seems enough of a trend that I thought I'd comment on it's implications in a broader scope. If you can't find what I'm talking about then say so because it's rather obvious to me and several others who have posted in this thread.

Perhaps, you were subconsciously telling us all that this thread is the loveliest example of all, in regards to a thread filled with "vast overgeneralizations, stupidity, insensitivity, close-mindedness, misunderstanding, name calling, bigotry, swearing, racism, and hatred."

I laid the sarcasm on pretty thick at the top but that's just PR. Sometimes you have to tweak a nipple to get a response. So I suppose you might consider that a bit insensitive but as to the rest, sorry, no.

Do you have no freaking clue what hypocritical or irony is?

Indeed I do, I've pointed it out.

What is there to say? Stop your self-righteous nonsense!

Ummm.... No.

At what level can the "paradigm" be self-defeating? Case and point this ridiculous thread!

Really? Show me where.

~Raithere

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by MShark
Other than loving God is there really anything wrong with the message.

I don't even really have a problem with the loving God part. What I do not generally see though is the message having much of an effect. Honestly, do you?

Originally posted by Markx
Nice post Raithere, and I am sure that special person got the message and behaving or atleast trying. But thanks for atleast making a point.

Thanks. I really had more than one person in mind but maybe the point will get across to some of them. The problem is that those to whom this behavior is most directly attributable to I have already attempted to make the point. It seems to have gotten lost.

~Raithere

 

[MShark]

Cris

if you show love for your enemy your enemy tends to take advantage of that and you die.

In the story Old Yeller his boy loved Old Yeller very much but when Old Yeller got rabbies the boy shot him. The boy did not stop loving Old Yeller but he did what needed to be done. I do not see any conflict with loving your enemy and killing them to protect - self, family, and country.

Turning the other cheek is a very practical and strong message that says to the attacker "You do not have the power to provoke me". I am not sure that it implies that we should let ourselves be killed.

But let’s agree here, there are very very few true Christians who would be prepared to follow such teachings, hence the hypocrisy of Christianity.

I know a lot of very good people who are Christians. People who truly care about other people, who aren't judgemental, and who would accept you along with your beliefs without trying to change you. So no I do not think good Christians are rare. Unfortunatly boorish, abnoxious, and hypocritacal Christians are also common. Perfect Christians however are very rare. If you think that a Christian that falls short of Christs teachings is a hypocrit then I guess we all are.

Bush is a .. well lets just say embarasing on so many levels.

 

[thefountainhed]

I do. That's pretty much the point. If you cannot see that then I suggest you leave alone what you do not understand.

You see, it is dishonesty like this that annoys me. You were not being scarcastic, sardonic, or whatever the hell you wnat to call it! My first response was intended as a freaking test and you failed misearably when you responded with this crap:
Where did I say that everyone was guilty of such behavior? I'm simply attempting to hold up a mirror for those who seem to miss the fact that their actions belie their words; or rather their words belie their words. Certainly I have been guilty of such at times but rarely with the displays of rage and hatred that have been flavoring this forum lately and when addressed I quickly repent. I decided specifically not to mention individuals, as the trend seems broad enough to address publicly; though I did have a few people in mind when I began this thread; if the shoe fits...

Indeed. Take it as a call towards introspection, as it was intended.

You lie. It was not the intent.

Says who; you? I think not. I've participated in this forum for long enough to earn the right to comment upon the trends I see. Not to mention freedom of speech and all that.

When did simple experience entail a right? I am saying you have not earned the right because you are being hypocritical and unable to see yourself in the mirror-- until it was of course pointed out to you.

Where am I calling for the death penalty, thefountainhed? I'm attempting to examine the paradigm at work here, the contrast between what is declared and what is done.

BAH. If you are examing this so called paradigm, then how can you miss a pretty ovious analogy?

I fail to see a problem, perhaps you're unfamiliar with the definition:
repent

1. To feel pain, sorrow, or regret, for what one has done or omitted to do.
2. To change the mind, or the course of conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction.
(Webster's Unabridged)

Oh please, quit your annoying pretense. The third definition is this:

3.To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

And within the context of the thread, and its location, I daresay only the 3rd def matters.

The funny thing is I wasn't thinking of you at all at the time. On several occasions I've addressed specific individuals in the appropriate thread but it seems enough of a trend that I thought I'd comment on it's implications in a broader scope. If you can't find what I'm talking about then say so because it's rather obvious to me and several others who have posted in this thread.

Of course I know you did not have me in mind. Again, you act cowadly and then suggets that your broad generalizations should be accepted; who are these individuals?

I laid the sarcasm on pretty thick at the top but that's just PR. Sometimes you have to tweak a nipple to get a response. So I suppose you might consider that a bit insensitive but as to the rest, sorry, no.

BAH. Your response to my first post told me there was no intended scarcasm.

I do, I've pointed it out.

Irony, perhaps, now you do...hypocrisy, I still sense denial.

Ummm.... No.

You will.

Really? Show me where.

Are you that blind? What of the nature of most responses?