Were we visited before?

[SkinWalker]

Could you elaborte on the other geological features of the Sphinx that point towards its construction during the 4th dynasty? The only real evidence I know of, besides chemical dating methods, is the Pharoah who is supposedly carved on the face of the Sphinx. Using his time as ruler of Egypt to date the Sphinx.

There are two leading theories by geo-archaeologists (Harrell and Reader come to mind) on the age of the Sphinx based on the weathering of the Limestone. Much of this is connected with the amount of time needed for weathering to have done the job as well as whether or not there was sufficient water available (and when) to do the job.

Reader suggests that the Sphinx was constructed during the 2nd Dynasty (Reader, 1999) [I'll try to find a webpage that has his paper online] between 5000 and 7000 BCE. Harrell maintains that it was during the 4th Dynasty, between 2500 and 3000 BCE.

Reader, who's actually a geological engineer, points out that the sand and debris filled limestone quarry nearby (which dates to the 4th Dynasty) collects surface runoff and, therefore, prevents the surface hydrology from eroding the Sphinx.

Harrell contends that there is significant anecdotal accounts of current surface runoff actually reaching the Sphinx and that if surface water (from storms, flash-flood type torrents, etc.) reaches the Sphinx now, then it certainly did throughout history. He also disagrees with Reader's point that most of the runoff would remain surface flow and contends that a significant amount would become sub-surface flow after absorbtion by the limestone.

In short, Harrell sees the erosion as physical and chemical weathering brought on by surface and subsurface hydrology.

Either way, the evidence seems clear that the Sphinx is no older than the 2nd Dynasty and this is based upon the stratigraphy of the area. The strata that the Sphinx doesn't intrude upon are older than 7000 BCE.

Here's a link that I had from some college notes... to be fair, I only skimmed it, but it appears to sum up both the "old Sphinx" and the "young Sphinx" arguments. www.uiowa.edu.

I, personally, find the debate fascinating and both sides are persuasive (Reader and Harrell). I don't, however, give Schoch and West much credit... their contention that the Sphinx and the Giza plateau constructions are the work of other-than-Egyptians doesn't appear to hold much water.

Can you comment on my other questions regarding the documenting of the Great Pyramid's construction, and the lack of hyrogliphics within its walls. This to me, is very damaging to the standard theories. Where is the documentation for its construction?

I really couldn't say... I also couldn't find any literature on the topic. But I suspect that this is an ethnographical problem. The purpose of the Egyptian pyramids was a funerary one. Perhaps the builders didn't see the logic in leaving behind a record of their work inside a tomb. Even if the dead do rise, they wouldn't stay there in the dark, they'll exit the tomb.

That's but one hypothesis, and quite off the cuff at that.

Sources:

J.A. Harrell, (1994). "The Sphinx Controversy - Another Look at the Geological Evidence", KMT Vol 5 No. 2, p70-74.

Reader, Colin (1999). Khufu Knew the Sphinx. To date, unpublished, but Reader has used this for numerous lectures, etc..

 

[Chalaco]

The other thing I think is that perhaps at the time they were made Titans ruled the Earth. That wouldn't make it so hard to build the pyramids if a race of Titans built them.

w0w!


I think you just might be special

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Medicine Woman
Has a very valid concept. The Nephilim of old were supposed to be the off spring of “fallen angels” ET?, and mankind. Many of the legends speak of them. What gifts of powers (technological gadgets hidden in swords and shields *grins*) may have been given we don’t know. Our education system in the usa is so damned biased, and act like fanatical religionists just as much as the scientists do, that pure research looking for true answers and not a bunch of mumbo jumbo get very difficult and frustrating. The answers are there, just digging through all the crap to get to them makes it a pain in the ass. Then when you want to discuss these investigations there seems to be ones that want to twist the topic, and the topic poster, till they leave in frustration. Ever wonder why?

 

[SkinWalker]

Medicine Woman
Has a very valid concept.

Not at all. There isn't a shred of validity to the idea of "Titans" roaming the planet prior to early dynistic egypt.

The Nephilim of old were supposed to be the off spring of ?fallen angels? ET?, and mankind. Many of the legends speak of them.

There are many legends and superstitions in the world... there were many things that early civilizations couldn't explain, so they created metaphysical explanations. The metaphysical has no place in science since it cannot by definition be measured.

Our education system in the usa is so damned biased, and act like fanatical religionists just as much as the scientists do, that pure research looking for true answers and not a bunch of mumbo jumbo get very difficult and frustrating.

Don't you mean, "the metaphysical and speculative explanations get sidestepped for explanations and theories that are supported by evidence?" In that case, the bias is justified. Metaphysical garbage (UFOs, magic, religion, esp...) has no place in the classroom.

The answers are there, just digging through all the crap to get to them makes it a pain in the ass.

"Digging through all the crap" to get answers is the lifelong passion of many, if not most, scientists. But the metaphysical explanations (i.e. the consideration that an ancient civilization's explanation for something is empirical evidence of ET's) are necessarily discarded.

Then when you want to discuss these investigations there seems to be ones that want to twist the topic, and the topic poster, till they leave in frustration. Ever wonder why?

Nope. They can leave. Fuck em. This is a "Science" board and the "Pseudoscience" forum is about discussing that garbage to expose the faults in pseudo- and alternative sciences as far as I'm concerned. You kooks can avoid sciforums altogether and I won't miss you.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Oh but we would miss the science boards self-appointed preacher like TheVisitor is in religion. If yah can’t beat the evidence, beat up on the one presenting it, Wonderful tactic Skinwalker. The evidence is there, but you wont and cant refute it, only muddy and spoil the clarity of what someone posts.

 

[SkinWalker]

The evidence is there, but you wont and cant refute it, only muddy and spoil the clarity of what someone posts.

Evidence of some advanced civilization circa 10000 BCE?

I can't refute what you keep in your brain-housing-group.

 

[FieryIce]

Was a date ever mentioned?...10000 BCE?
We never mentioned a date of 10,000 BCE

 

[SkinWalker]

"We?" I don't recall you saying anything at all in this thread. But okay... let me revise to this: "evidence of some advanced civilization prior to the dynastic Egypt? I can't refute what either of you keep in your brain-housing groups."

Better? Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

But that wasnt in any post by me or her,,, yer funny, and cant read either.

 

[SkinWalker]

But that wasnt in any post by me or her.

Then perhaps we're speaking of two different things. I was referring to MedicineWoman when she said:

I believe they were made by an intelligent race with the use of precise technology and possibly anti-gravity. The other thing I think is that perhaps at the time they were made Titans ruled the Earth.

And then you said:

Has a very valid concept.

And I said, "Not at all. There isn't a shred of validity to the idea of "Titans" roaming the planet prior to early dynistic egypt."

And you said:

The evidence is there, but you wont and cant refute it

.

But I still can't refute "evidence" locked away in your brain-housing group.

yer funny, and cant read either.

If yah can?t beat the evidence, beat up on the one presenting it,

 

[FieryIce]

The Nephilim were known to be giants and have six fingers and six toes. The Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D. C., has or had human skeletal remains in particular femar of huge size. There are records of humans born even today with six fingers and six toes.

 

[SkinWalker]

The Nephilim were known to be giants and have six fingers and six toes.

Known to whom? The only reference to this mythological being that I recall is from the Book of Genesis, which refers to Nephilim as the offspring of marriages between "daughters of humans" and "sons of God."

The Bible, particularly Genesis, is a dubious source of information at best.

Give a citation to a "Nephilim" discovery or the "giants of the Smithsonian," and perhaps I'll believe what you saying.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

Try using your typing skills in the search engines SkinWalker, all you do is flap your fingers at the keys and see what you track down. Who knows you may just find something that isn’t know here? Or at least KNOWN to those that have already done those searches. Most are tired of bottle feeding people like you that refute with out evidence of their own. Well except the evidence of naivete and ignoring of posted information. Like, 1957 – Smithsonian – femur – 20+ feet. Type that into your address bar for a search about it. Besides, those that want to post about this kind of research, do you really think that they give a shit IF YOU believe? Get some social skills would yah?

 

[SkinWalker]

Try using your typing skills in the search engines SkinWalker, all you do is flap your fingers at the keys and see what you track down.

I rarely rely on "search engines" as you put it. Google is good to get a direction to go in, look for a bit of current information, etc., but when it comes to anthropological information like you just mentioned I utilize databases such as Anthropology Plus to get the citation and then track down the article in a specific journal

Who knows you may just find something that isn?t know here?

I tried to translate that in babelfish.com, then I realized you were just "flapping at the keyboard." There's nothing regarding "giants" or "nephilim" to find anywhere except on the kook boards.

You come in here and try to talk the talk, but in the end you can't do it. Simply applying some scientific sounding words to your half-baked ideas doesn't make your theories true. All it does is create a bit of ambiguous credibility for those that are already gullible. You overtly appeal to authority in many of your posts, citing how NASA is interested in your "research" and how you've "submitted proposals for funding," etc, but then admonish those who "are too blind" to see your brand of evidence.

Or at least KNOWN to those that have already done those searches. Most are tired of bottle feeding people like you that refute with out evidence of their own.

So stop talking bullshit and provide a direct citation to something that you claim. You seem to think that the burdon of proof for your wild-ass claims needs to be on those that read your posts. Only the gullible will accept what someon like you says at face value. But I'm not running to Google or other search engines just to find something on a kook board to back you up. Put up or shut the fuck up.

Well except the evidence of naivete and ignoring of posted information. Like, 1957 ? Smithsonian ? femur ? 20+ feet. Type that into your address bar for a search about it.

And just for the sake of argument, I did. Here's what came back. Show me what I was supposed to see.

Besides, those that want to post about this kind of research, do you really think that they give a shit IF YOU believe? Get some social skills would yah?

If they are actually doing research, yes. The goal of research is to explain. If they are concocting half-baked ideas based on some bullshit they read on the kook boards, no. I'd expect that they would stay on the kook boards and off of the science boards and my social skills would be moot only.

 

[craterchains (Norval]

The babel continues.

Sorry, I had made an assumption that wasn’t true. Quite apparently by your link everyone can see I was wrong in my afforded assumption you had computer research skills.

There are other words that you may want to try, but try them each also. Words like giant
giants
Nephelim (with various spellings)
help on search engine usage
kook sites
.edu sites

 

[Magnetic XL]

Yesterday (04/25/04) on one of the Discovery A&E Channels I viewed the program entitled "UFOs vs. The Government"
I became interested in this SOBEPS group and the following of the "Belgium Wave"

On a number of eyewitness accounts they make mentioning to the building (where the UFO was hovering over a kind of housing for elderly people.

I'd like to know if anyone got a list names of the occupants in the housing complext???

 

[Avatar]

I really couldn't say... I also couldn't find any literature on the topic. But I suspect that this is an ethnographical problem. The purpose of the Egyptian pyramids was a funerary one. Perhaps the builders didn't see the logic in leaving behind a record of their work inside a tomb. Even if the dead do rise, they wouldn't stay there in the dark, they'll exit the tomb.
That's but one hypothesis, and quite off the cuff at that.

I don't have any particular history book to quote now, but...
All the rest of the pyramids(also the proposed more ancient ones than the Great pyramid) have stone carwings and drawings in them (did you know that the outside of the pyramids was actually painted in colours?) Early theories said that pyramids were used for grain keeping, nowaday we say that it is for funeral purposes, but as I've been studing egyptian mythology (a hobby) I see that pyramids are not tombs (as resting places) , but constructs that were made with 2 purposes.
1. for the safekeeping of pharaohs body (no life in afterlife if your body is severly damaged by whatever factors in the living world).
2. they were the doors for the pharaohs Ka (spirit) to the land of the dead. You see, ancient egyptans believed that one first has to get to the land of the dead and that the fact of dying is not enough. A life in the land of the dead would mean immortality (as long as the body preserves) so even pharaohs who were god-kings had to earn their share of immortality. This was done by passing a varies of tests and also the Ka was weighted.Several ridles had to be answered, "word formulas" had to be spoken.
You see, egyptians were sneaky and they knew what questions they'd be asked so as every student today if he get's the exam questions prior to the exam itself you do two things- study the question, make a small paper in order to cheat. This iswhat the ancient egyptians did. Each pyramid has these guidelines of how to pass the test in the underworld: preset answers to questions that have to be answered, to which authoroty to turn to etc etc etc... these were preset instructions for every man, the particular personality wasn't important. And these word formulas... well my subjective oppinon-> Without such a formula before your eyes you'd have to have a hell of an exellent memory to pass the test. A pharaoh would have to be a "professor of divine science" to pass it /sarcasticaly speaking/
-> and also ->
when the soul was wighted in the underworld not only questions were asked but the person had to prove his identity and his good deads, his social standing, that he deserves to be a god after death (egyptian pharaohs had the privilege to become real gods after their death, not only immortal inhabitants of the land of the dead)
So there were carvings and paintings with pharaohs deeds and accomplishments. as every pharaohs name his name was inscribed and with a circle around it to point to his(her) divine rights. without the pharaohs name in the tomb pharaoh couldn't get through the trials, it was like an ID card/passport nowadays.
(of course to show his wealth treasures were put besides him and food and drinks and slaves to make his life in the underworld merrier, but that is not in the carving subject)
-> so for a pyramid to offer it's second most important
(in no priorities of order) function it simply had to have these guidlines, cheats, id cards and other evidence of pharaohs divinity. Without these no afterlife and afterlife was the whole point to even build that pyramid.
So a pyramid was useless to it's functions if it didn't have these carvings.

that is why the Great pyramid is so interesting. It seems that it was not built with the thought of ensuring immortality to a pharaoh or any other pharaoh to come because there were not the preset guidlines that each individual had, personality not important.
. I am not suggesting any other functions myself , I don't wan to speculate, I simply don't have any facts to work on, but to my knowledge the Great pyramid was/is useless as a doorway to immortality. and I don't think egyptians (or any other civilization) would have built smthing without a purpose. Purpose there was.


Well, as I'm a supporter of a pre-egyptian/summerian civilization I have an assumption which is only mine and you don't have to make anything of it (but the written above still counts as it deals with the egyptian civilization, which I don't think anyone of you would say - it didn't exist /smiles)
my proposal is that the great pyramid was built by a previous civilization for their own special unknown purposes, because the Great pyramid contradicts the very essence why egyptians built them.

and also it is interesting to note that all the later day pyramids were only copies of the great pyramid, they were smaller and less grand. well, maybe it had to do smthing with funding lol - I'm not suggesting this as proof for my assumption/theory, it's only a fact for you to think on yourselves.

----
this post was dedicated not to show that some pre-egyptian civilization existed, it was to show tha the great pyramid is outside of egyptian society, mythology, culture and religion. It doesn't fulfill it's functions, it has no afterlife function (just entombment of a body won't get you immortality). Therefore there are 3 versions:
1. it looks as if it is non-egyptian , then it was built by some others
2. it is of egyptian making, but is totally outside their culture (it was centered on death/afterlife). it doesn't do what a pyramid has to do. Like an arf with no strings - useless. If it was made by egyptians then the purpose is a real mystery and it certainly was other than afterlife and immortality of the pharaoh.
3. stone carvers were on strike (insert any other social event)
but to my mind it would be redicilous, because pharaohs powers were of a god-king.

p.s. pyramids cost an enormous sums of money and resources to build.
why didn't some later day pharaoh just use the empty pyramid, carve his name in it and make it his divine ascent place (they have done such things with simpler tombs)? maybe the Great pyramid had some very special purpose unlike other pyramids and was a taboo to touch.

 

[Lemming3k]

pyramids cost an enormous sums of money and resources to build.

My research indicates they didnt cost so much money, they were built for the pharaohs as you say but the labour was free and the stone blocks were only made for the purpose of building pyramids, it was built for the pharaoh because he demanded it and because they were thought to be close to the gods everyone contributed to it, almost as a thankyou for being our glorious ruler sort of thing, your correct about resources and manpower though.

 

[spidergoat]

MW--"How else could we have evolved beyond apes?"
Language. Actually for a very long time we were rather smart apes, but we could only pass on what we learned in a limited way. We might have used fire and clubs, but only in a limited way. We can see this from excavations of Dragon Bone Hill in China. Human culture existed relatively unchanged for hundreds of thousands of years. We scavenged off the kills of larger predators. The evolution of the human tapeworm shows this. Then, something radical happened, and technology developed rapidly, coinciding with the loss of our massive skulls, which was replaced with brain mass. I believe this was the result of language. Language allowed hunting technology to accumulate. Even the tapeworm took advantage of our skills, and evolved a separate line, just for humans. With the leisure time afforded by adequate food supply, culture evolved. It is quite amazing, but hardly supernatural.

As to the accomplishments of the ancients, they spent much more time outdoors, and were quite clever, they also had loads of free time, since they didn't have jobs. They used celestial guides to draw straight lines in Nasca, Peru, much like Pacific Islanders used stars to navigate.

 

[Avatar]

My research indicates they didnt cost so much money, they were built for the pharaohs as you say but the labour was free and the stone blocks were only made for the purpose of building pyramids, it was built for the pharaoh because he demanded it and because they were thought to be close to the gods everyone contributed to it, almost as a thankyou for being our glorious ruler sort of thing, your correct about resources and manpower though.

Your research is outdated.

According to the latest research the workers were paid with clothes, food, housing, free healthcare and maybe even tax cuts.
There are many carvings that show pyramid workers getting paid in food and clothing. There are many sceletons that show signs of mended bones and that the person had been cured and continued to work after. There were many traumas and doctors were all but free in the ancient world.
and that goes only for big hard larbour mass, highly qualified and well-paid workers (intellectual) were well paid in gold and exellent housing (not just housing).
You don't just build a pyramid by calling together 40 000 peasants, even with today's general education.
and of coure don't forget the "office" workers (distribution of food, clothes, money, paying the wages, organising it all, etc etc
and don't forget that in the ancient world gold and money was quite rare. Most things were paid not in shiny metal pieces, but in food, clothes, state benefits, tools (axes, jars, etc) things you could use everyday. And that was all over the world. Money usually was used just by the most rich people, not the general peasant.

and these all resources were given from the state budget