We need more discussion of Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis

Perhaps it is a matter of "resistance" on your part?
Is that the best you can do in response to my post?

I just told you - again and in detail - why I object to Tegmark's hypothesis.

How do you respond to the points I raised? Do you agree with me? Disagree? Think I'm wrong about something? What?

Nothing from you, except you want to pretend that my rejection of Tegmark's hypothesis is based on a personality deficit that I have.

Stop the ad hominem. You're the man who complained that there wasn't enough in-depth discussion of Tegmark's hypothesis. But the minute you see any, you run a mile from it. Why?
 
Is that the best you can do in response to my post?
You're the man who complained that there wasn't enough in-depth discussion of Tegmark's hypothesis. But the minute you see any, you run a mile from it. Why?
Do you see me go anywhere? It is usually you who issues threats of removal.

Actually, I am very pleased that I pioneered this subject for discussion. This turned out to be a very productive exchange of perspectives after all. I could not hope for better.
 
I am watching a debate between Brian Greene and Max Tegmark (apparently they are good friends).
Tegmark mentioned the platonic solids and Brian Green responded that all there is are approximation which is true.
But this gets pretty close to the self-organization of Platonic solids in nature.
M-rough-diamonds.jpg

Diamonds in the rough, note the regular octahedral forms and trigons (of positive and negative relief) formed by natural chemical etching. Photo credit: Wikimedia.
 
Do you see me go anywhere? It is usually you who issues threats of removal.

Actually, I am very pleased that I pioneered this subject for discussion. This turned out to be a very productive exchange of perspectives after all. I could not hope for better.
I watched the video but that's it, do you have the book?
 
I posted Massimo's criticism of Tegmark/Shapiro in post 50. Peter Woit gives a thoroughly damning review of his ideas, as expresed in a recent book, here: https://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=6551
I read the reviews and yes they are damning. More style than substance is the impression I am getting from Tegmark.
Very surprised he did not reference any note worthy mathematicians in this thesis, this is ultimately a book about the universe BEING mathematics!
Things have certainly moved on since 2014 and modern cosmology DOES favour some models of the universe that are infinite.
Interesting part regarding Gödel too, a universe with in built logical absurdities?
String theory too? 40 years with no results?
I want to check on Tegmark see what he is doing now. I will feedback.
 
I watched the video but that's it, do you have the book?
No, I can't afford it. I have read excerpts and watched other videos,
"Mathematical Universe" is lecture at the Royal Institute,
and "Consciousness is a Mathematical Pattern", a lecture at Ted Talks
which I found particularly well-reasoned and elegant in scope.

Note that Tegmark does not claim to have the TOE, he merely proposes that a mathematical universe is discoverable via mathematics and by a surprisingly small quantity of relational numbers and a dozen equations.

Pixels in a reflecting water surface
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Mathematical Universe" is lecture at the Royal Institute,
The video you posted says next to nothing that is novel about the universe, next to nothing about his thesis.
Are you telling me this is all you know of Tegmark's MUH?
A few YT videos?
 
The second idea is the "simulation hypothesis". This is the claim that the outside world that you are aware of is generated entirely by some external agency pumping sensations into your head, which you take as real. You might, for example, be a brain in a vat, fed sensory information directly into your neurons by some sort of computer. This idea is different from solipcism because it does not assume that your mind and everything else in the (apparent) universe are one. It contemplates the existence of other beings or entities ourself of yourself, which have their own, separate existence beyond your ability to perceive.
I'm afraid this is not entirely correct. The simulation hypothesis is not that we could be some brain in a vat, but rather that we are ourselves a simulation. Not some VR or other physical existence where only the inputs are simulated, but we ourselves are simulated. We ourselves are nothing but 1s and 0s.This is a very different proposition to being a brain ina a vat. ;)
You're quite correct, though, in that it is not falsifiable, and I only raised it as an interesting aside that offers a different argument for at least our existence being "mathematical" in nature. But it is still worth correcting you on your understanding of it, so that one can appreciate the overlap of ideas with the MUH.

Anyhoo... Carry on. :)
 
I read the reviews and yes they are damning. More style than substance is the impression I am getting from Tegmark.
Very surprised he did not reference any note worthy mathematicians in this thesis, this is ultimately a book about the universe BEING mathematics!
Things have certainly moved on since 2014 and modern cosmology DOES favour some models of the universe that are infinite.
Interesting part regarding Gödel too, a universe with in built logical absurdities?
String theory too? 40 years with no results?
I want to check on Tegmark see what he is doing now. I will feedback.
Yes, do that. I'd be interested, in particular whether he has addressed Pigliucci's suspicion that he is simply confusing the order displayed by nature, much of which* can be expressed by mathematics, with it actually being mathematics, and if so what he means by that.

*By the way, I am far from convinced that all of nature can be expressed by mathematics. Certainly it looks as though all of physics can, but there is more to nature than physics, provocative remarks by Lord Rutherford notwithstanding.

Over the years I have got the sense that Americans scientists, in particular, seem to have a great reverence for mathematics. It is commonplace on science forums for Americans to dismiss ideas by saying "show us the math[sic]" , or something equivalent. Maths seems to have been put on a pedestal, such that it is considered the apotheosis of scientific endeavour to reduce everything to maths. Tegmark looks like what happens when this process goes to completion.

With most ideas in which there is an element of truth, taking it to extremes tends to lead to silly results. I wonder if this is what we are seeing with the Tegmark/Shapiro phenomenon.
 
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Do you see me go anywhere? It is usually you who issues threats of removal.
So you're not going to respond to my on-topic post about Tegmark's hypothesis then.

Are you just trolling now?

Also, where have I issued "threats of removal"? What are you talking about? This is something I "usually" do? Be specific in your complaint. Have I threatened you or your posts with "removal"?
 
I'm afraid this is not entirely correct. The simulation hypothesis is not that we could be some brain in a vat, but rather that we are ourselves a simulation. Not some VR or other physical existence where only the inputs are simulated, but we ourselves are simulated. We ourselves are nothing but 1s and 0s.This is a very different proposition to being a brain ina a vat. ;)
My mistake. You're right, of course.

Nevertheless, the simulation hypothesis still implies that our 1s and 0s are encoded in some physical substrate somewhere. The simulation must run on something. It also wouldn't make our universe mathematics.

The brain the vat is not very different. It just assumes that the relevant substrate for the simulation to run on is, in part, a physical human brain.
 
No, I can't afford it. I have read excerpts and watched other videos,
"Mathematical Universe" is lecture at the Royal Institute,
and "Consciousness is a Mathematical Pattern", a lecture at Ted Talks
which I found particularly well-reasoned and elegant in scope.

Note that Tegmark does not claim to have the TOE, he merely proposes that a mathematical universe is discoverable via mathematics and by a surprisingly small quantity of relational numbers and a dozen equations.

I am asking you what extent have read about Tegmark's thesis? You have mentioning him Hameroff and MT at every turn. Let us focus just on Tegmark for the sake of the direction of thread.

What is his thesis besides the universe is mathematics?
 
Nevertheless, the simulation hypothesis still implies that our 1s and 0s are encoded in some physical substrate somewhere. The simulation must run on something. It also wouldn't make our universe mathematics.
It's not as simple as that, though. If we are a simulation, then nothing in our universe is real, including ourselves. The substrate upon which those 1s and 0s reside does not exist in our universe. Our universe is entirely the 1s and 0s, and the relationships between them. I.e. mathematics. There is no need to even consider the substrate, as it is irrelevant to our universe (the simulated universe).
The brain the vat is not very different. It just assumes that the relevant substrate for the simulation to run on is, in part, a physical human brain.
No, it is very different, I think. The Brain in a Vat (BiaV) gedanken is merely about a change in the perceptions, from reality to a virtual reality. The processing and substrate still exist within the universe, in both universes (real and virtual). This makes it very different to the SH, where there is no such substrate that exists in the simulated universe.
There is/may be outside of that universe, but the MUH concludes that our universe is mathematical, and the SH would seem to conclude the same. So to dismiss it as casually as you do is to misunderstand it, I think, or at least its relevance to the MUH.

But, that said, I am not sure how either the SH or MUH are testable. They seem to be more metaphysical and philosophical than anything else.
Maybe Write4U can explain how the MUH is testable?
 
I've bailed on much of this discussion, especially the derailments, but am nevertheless trying to keep up.

What's the difference between declaring the universe a "physical structure" and declaring it a "mathematical structure"?
'Physicial' in this context seems to be a reference to the mathematical structure of which we are a part. We consider the primitives of that structure to be physical, and give them physical names like 'electron' and such. A simple mathematical structure (a given triangle say) doesn't seem meaningfully physical. It's just a geometric planar polygon. The words we use to describe one are tools of abstraction, but a triangular mathematical structure is just that simple thing. It isn't a graph or a picture or any other abstract representation, all of which are mental and physical concepts.

If the latter is completely disassociated from graphics or pictures, then "mathematical structure" might become radically different by consisting purely of technical description
Well, it's the thing in itself, not a description at all. The description is one of the things one needs to disassociate from it. A system of just a triangle has nothing capable of creation of a description of anything.
A tesseract is a 4D mathematical structure, and yet one that cannot be physical. It cannot be approximated in our universe, which lacks sufficient spatial dimensions..

But that's the point where few, if anybody, can fathom what mathematical realists (in general) are claiming with respect to their abstract entities being "real", or how they exist.
Unlike Tegmark, I'm not a mathematical realist, which is another word for mathematical Platonism. I perhaps can defend that the universe is a mathematical structure, but I would not go so far as to suggest it has (or needs) the property of being real. A triangle has 3 sides and 3 angles, no? Or does one have to first establish that it has this other property before it can the property of having 3 angles? A relational ontology makes more sense to me, and that seems somewhat irrelevant to MUH.

So one structure that often comes up is the Mandelbrot set, which is often approximately represented via a 2D image. The name we gave it is human. It is, in its fundamental form, nothing but a mathematical set of complex numbers that have a certain property, as being distinct from the rest of the complex numbers that do not have that one property..

We've not yet discovered the description of the nature of the mathematical object that is us. It would be something on the order of some wave function, and its evolution as per something resembling the Schrodinger equation. The actual written expression of these things is not required, only for us to abstract it. Like the tesseract, that structure has certain properties that are independent of some abstract entity actually considering it. So one of the properties of our structure is that it has observers capable of learning the nature of the structure itself. To deny that is to deny that mathematics alone can describable our universe, which so far doesn't seem to be the case. It also can be a denial of naturalism, but then the view is anti-science. Searle comes to mind as an example of this.

The MUH is philosophy, and apparently Tegmark, while an accomplished Physicist, is an unaccomplished metaphysician. He proposes all sorts of empirical tests for his view, none of which hold water. On the other hand, the view is quite open to logical and statistical analysis, and it is in these areas it needs to defend itself. In particular, I paraphrase Carroll, whose words regarding a somewhat unrelated topic seem nevertheless appropriate:
"The issue is not that the MUH hypothesis is ruled out by data, but that some MUH theories are cognitively unstable: they cannot simultaneously be true and justifiably believed."
That's a mix of his words (not speaking of MUH) and mine. Tegmark does not address this problem. The gist of the problem is that so many mathematical structures are uninteresting, to the point where it is far more likely that we're one of the uninteresting ones instead of the interesting one we posit. That's a painful criticism of MUH, one for which I have no easy reply.


Which seems to be an obscured way of mathematical realists claiming (without the directness) that the universe is a simulation.
Those that suggest that seem to not realize the difference between a mathematical structure and a simulation of one. By definition, our universe cannot be a simulation. It can be simulated (not by any classical means, but still...). And those that posit it often confuse a simulation with virtual reality, without knowing the difference between the two.
 
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The big philosophical problem is the question of what is the true nature of existence. In the context of the present discussion, there are two ideas that I think we should exclude upfront.
Pretty much all of philosophy is unfalsifiable, at least the valid views. I agree with your list (both versions of solipsism) because indeed, both render empirical evidence meaningless. Perhaps MUH does as well, per my post just above. To you list I would add any kind of anthropocentrism. Both in your list are versions of it, and I name the more general case. Nothing can really be known about the nature of reality if reality is all about me.

The first idea is the problem of hard solipcism. Solipcism is the claim that we cannot be sure that anything exists, apart from our own minds. Actually, you can't be sure that my mind exists, except as some notion in your mind. This means that there's no way to know whether ducks - or anything else normally considered external to your mind - actually exist separately from your mind.

We come, then, to Tegmark's claim that the universe is mathematics. One thing to note, before we go on, is that if the simulation hypothesis is correct, that doesn't support Tegmark's hypothesis.
What you described in your post is a VR hypothesis, a version of solipsism. Tegmark does not seem to suggest anything of the kind. He says mathematics is fundamental. Both the simulation and the VR thing posit a more fundamental reality on which our reality is being implemented. So no machine under the mathematics. Nobody seems to get that.

[/QUOTE]So, let's step away now from these unfalsifiable philosophical hypotheses and accept, for the sake of argument, that you really do exist separately from ducks (that they aren't just things in your head) and that, as far as we can tell, our universe is "real"[/QUOTE]The universe doesn't have to 'be real' in order for me to be separate from the duck, for the duck to not depend on me or any other observer to be a duck. I suppose it depends on humans to have the human name 'duck' attached to it, but that's about as far as it goes.

I find it more useful to define 'real' or 'exists' as a relation of A measures B. So the duck is real relative to anything that measures it, like say the water. The water is affected by the displacement of the duck, so the duck exists in relation to the water. That's seems a more useful definition, a relation instead of a property. But that's just me. Tegmark is pretty obviously a realist, and says the duck is part of the universal structure, and so are you, so there cannot be a duck without you since you're both part of the same thing. But the universe, being real, exists as much as any other mathematical structure. That's the level-4 multiverse thing going on. His assertions, not mine, but more mainstream (and also naive in my opinion).

in the sense that it will go on existing after you're no longer aware of it.
You seem to have a presentist definition of existence, that things stop existing after a time. Just something I notice. The MUH thing seems incompatible with presentism since it would entail the mathematical structure existing within time, making time more fundamental than the mathematics, a contradiction of the premises.


Let us also agree that, even if we are in a simulation, there appear to be certain rules and regularities that we can investigate from inside the simulation, even if we can never look outside it. Let's do what we can do.

Now we're into the realm of observation and science. We observe that that there are two types of things in our world - physical objects and ideas. Put simply, physical objects are things that can be touched or otherwise sensed. They exist outside our minds which, for the sake of argument, we are accepting as separate from one another and from the universe at large. Ideas, on the other hand, are thoughts in our heads. They are information. We can communicate them to other people, to a certain extent using physical media, but they cannot be touched or otherwise sensed.
This again is the VR idea, with artificial inputs to real minds. Dualism does indeed have empirical falsification tests, which nobody seems to pursue since I suspect the proponents fear the falsification. It becomes a matter of faith. All the arguments seem to be faith and incredulity based. If I am a real mind controlling a simulated avatar body, it is pretty easy to show that the decisions made by the avatar do not come from the avatar itself, but from outside.

What is mathematics? Is it a physical object (or collection of physical objects) that we can touch or otherwise sense? I say: it is not. It is a collection of ideas.
The mathematics in context of the MUH is not about ideas or abstractions. Once again, nobody seems to get that, and thus the incredulity. The hypothesis is not suggesting that the universe is the product of any abstracting entity, a sort of higher level universe implementing the lower one.

Tegmark, on the other hand, says that mathematics and physical objects are one and the same. He wants to abolish the distinction.
That's a misrepresentation of what he says. A tesseract for instance is not physical. To us, it is an abstraction, an idea, the map so to speak. An actual tesseract would be neither of these things. A physical approximation of a triangle could be made, but our physics does not support the creation of an actual physical triangle.

In Tegmark's world, the number 3 is on the same ontological footing as a real-life duck.
That's a begging statement since you're implying that the duck is real life and 3 is not. Attack the hypothesis on its own ground instead of adding your own premises. The duck is part of a mathematical structure, and 3 is a valid mathematical structure on its own, so perhaps in Tegmark's world, 3 is on somewhat more solid ontological footing than is the duck, a mere component of a far more complex structure. The duck is physical because anything that is part of our structure is considered 'physical' by other parts of that same structure. The word 'physical' is merely a means of self reference in that regard. I saw no suggestion that 3 was a physical thing.

The main problem I have with Tegmark's hypothesis is that I think it's a dead end in terms of suggesting any useful programme of research to better understand the universe in which we find ourselves (simulated or otherwise, as the case may be).
Agree there. It's philosophy, and almost all of philosophy has this problem. Research is for science. MUH is not science.

What follows? Having abolished the distinction between ideas and physical objects,
This distinction has never been abolished. The hypothesis is not about ideas at all. So much of your post here obviously assumes otherwise. You cannot critique the hypothesis if you don't get that.
 
Sarkus:
It's not as simple as that, though. If we are a simulation, then nothing in our universe is real, including ourselves. The substrate upon which those 1s and 0s reside does not exist in our universe. Our universe is entirely the 1s and 0s, and the relationships between them. I.e. mathematics. There is no need to even consider the substrate, as it is irrelevant to our universe (the simulated universe).
This sort of response is why I took some time to explain why I didn't want to discuss the simulation hypothesis. It's a distraction from Tegmark's hypothesis.

Tegmark's hypothesis is, I assume, about our universe - the universe we perceive and have access to. Tegmark claims that our universe is mathematics. I say that, in our universe, there is an obvious and clear distinction between ideas and physical things, and that mathematics is firmly in the realm of ideas rather than physical things. Hence, physical things cannot be "made of mathematics". It's a category error to assume that they could be.

As for the simulation hypothesis, which as I pointed out is an unhelpful distraction from the topic we're supposedly discussing here, if there is a physical substrate on which those 1s and 0s are being stored and processed - necessarily a substrate that is not part of our measurable universe, as you said - then it is not true to say that our universe is mathematics, as a matter of fact.

The simulation hypothesis is an unhelpful distraction because it merely bumps Tegmark's ideas up one metaphysical level, in effect, where they are found to be wrong for the same reasons.
No, it is very different, I think. The Brain in a Vat (BiaV) gedanken is merely about a change in the perceptions, from reality to a virtual reality. The processing and substrate still exist within the universe, in both universes (real and virtual). This makes it very different to the SH, where there is no such substrate that exists in the simulated universe.
It's not very different.

In the simulation hypothesis, you have universe A being a simulation run on a computer of some kind that has some physical existence in universe B. Universe B is, of course, completely unperceivable from inside universe A.

In the brain in a vat scenario, you have a computer and a human brain in universe B, which creates the perception of a simulated universe A in the brain. Again, the person experiencing simulated universe A has no effective access to universe B.

You are trying to teach me to suck eggs by telling me that the brain in a vat is fundamentally different from the simulation hypothesis. But from the point of view of the person perceiving universe A, it is really no different at all. In both cases, universe B is equally out of reach for the person who perceives universe A. When the person who perceives A tries to determine the ultimate nature of his reality, he is necessarily restricted because the only observations he can make occur within universe A. It doesn't matter whether A is a simulation in a biological brain or in some other kind of computer.

As for Tegmark - just to repeat - whether or not we're in a simulation, Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis still fails to distinguish between mathematics and physics - a clearly meaningful distinction in the only universe we can test - universe A.
 
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Halc:
What you described in your post is a VR hypothesis, a version of solipsism. Tegmark does not seem to suggest anything of the kind. He says mathematics is fundamental. Both the simulation and the VR thing posit a more fundamental reality on which our reality is being implemented. So no machine under the mathematics. Nobody seems to get that.
I get it. It was, in fact, precisely the point I was trying to make post #79. Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. I have tried again in post #98, above.
The universe doesn't have to 'be real' in order for me to be separate from the duck, for the duck to not depend on me or any other observer to be a duck.
How could you not believe that the universe is real? (Are you thinking of a simulation? Does a simulation have no reality? I just don't know what you're talking about.)
I find it more useful to define 'real' or 'exists' as a relation of A measures B. So the duck is real relative to anything that measures it, like say the water.
So, while I sit here in Australia, is the Eiffel tower real? I'm not currently measuring it. Are you confident that something else is measuring it, to keep it real? What gives you that confidence?

I'm a little worried that your definition leads to the idea that reality is merely a matter of perception. It threatens to lead us down a slippery slope towards things being "real for me" and "not real for you", simultaneously, which I think is highly metaphysically problematic.
Tegmark is pretty obviously a realist, and says the duck is part of the universal structure, and so are you, so there cannot be a duck without you since you're both part of the same thing.
I don't think he says there can't be a duck without me. He says that a duck is mathematics, and I am a separate bit of mathematics, and we both exist in a universe that is entirely mathematics. But I don't think he would consider either myself or the duck to be a necessary part of that universe.
But the universe, being real, exists as much as any other mathematical structure.
Mathematical structures don't have the type of "existence" that I want from my universe.

I also think there are many mathematical structures that are not instantiated in any way in our physical universe, which seems like a problem for Tegmark's hypothesis. If our universe is mathematics, why just this mathematics, and not some other mathematics?
You seem to have a presentist definition of existence, that things stop existing after a time.
Maybe I do. In what sense would you say that things don't stop existing after a time? Is there some problem you think I need to correct?
The MUH thing seems incompatible with presentism since it would entail the mathematical structure existing within time, making time more fundamental than the mathematics, a contradiction of the premises.
In the MUH, surely time would just be more mathematics?
This again is the VR idea, with artificial inputs to real minds. Dualism does indeed have empirical falsification tests, which nobody seems to pursue since I suspect the proponents fear the falsification.
Can you give me an example of a test that falsifies (or could falsify) dualism?
If I am a real mind controlling a simulated avatar body, it is pretty easy to show that the decisions made by the avatar do not come from the avatar itself, but from outside.
How would you go about showing that? (Please read post #98, above, first.)
The mathematics in context of the MUH is not about ideas or abstractions. Once again, nobody seems to get that, and thus the incredulity. The hypothesis is not suggesting that the universe is the product of any abstracting entity, a sort of higher level universe implementing the lower one.
I agree. This is why talk of solipsism and simulation hypotheses are not relevant to the discussion of the MUH. It's why I wanted to take a little time to set those things to one side, because it seems to me that some people here think they are important for the MUH.

Unfortunately, I think I might have had the opposite effect. Now people seem more interested in talking about the peripheral matters than the ones that are actually relevant.
That's a begging statement since you're implying that the duck is real life and 3 is not.
That's exactly what I'm implying. It's my major objection to Tegmark's hypothesis. How can "3" make a duck?
Attack the hypothesis on its own ground instead of adding your own premises.
Which premises do you think I have added?
The duck is part of a mathematical structure...
That's Tegmark's claim. I think it is misguided, for reasons I have explained.

What do you think? Do you think that a duck is a mathematical structure?
..., and 3 is a valid mathematical structure on its own, so perhaps in Tegmark's world, 3 is on somewhat more solid ontological footing than is the duck, a mere component of a far more complex structure.
No. They are both mathematics, according to Tegmark, so are on an equal footing, like I said.
The duck is physical because anything that is part of our structure is considered 'physical' by other parts of that same structure. The word 'physical' is merely a means of self reference in that regard. I saw no suggestion that 3 was a physical thing.
As I said, I think that this idea abolishes the useful - not to mention common-sense - distinction between matter and ideas. It seems more obfuscatory than useful.
This distinction has never been abolished. The hypothesis is not about ideas at all. So much of your post here obviously assumes otherwise. You cannot critique the hypothesis if you don't get that.
Do you claim that mathematics is something other than conceptual?
 
This sort of response is why I took some time to explain why I didn't want to discuss the simulation hypothesis. It's a distraction from Tegmark's hypothesis.
Then don't reply, James R. The more I think about it the more I find it is useful in this discussion, and not a distraction at all.
Tegmark's hypothesis is, I assume, about our universe - the universe we perceive and have access to. Tegmark claims that our universe is mathematics. I say that, in our universe, there is an obvious and clear distinction between ideas and physical things, and that mathematics is firmly in the realm of ideas rather than physical things. Hence, physical things cannot be "made of mathematics". It's a category error to assume that they could be.
It appears to be, given what I know of the MUH, but then I am not an expert in his arguments. I find comparing to the SH helps, though. What are his arguments for either ignoring or accepting what you perceive to be this category error? I assume you know, to be able to assert his hypothesis as being based on this error?
As for the simulation hypothesis, which as I pointed out is an unhelpful distraction from the topic we're supposedly discussing here,...
And which I'm pointing out is useful and not a distraction...
if there is a physical substrate on which those 1s and 0s are being stored and processed - necessarily a substrate that is not part of our measurable universe, as you said - then it is not true to say that our universe is mathematics, as a matter of fact.
???
Just above you refer to the MUH as being "about our universe - the universe we perceive and have access to". No disagreement there. But now here, with regard the SH, you're not giving the same benefit. Yet you say specifically that any substrate "is not part of our measurable universe". Both the MUH and the SH are about the universe that those within the universe experience. Therefore any substrate of the SH is an irrelevant consideration. All that is relevant is whether the universe under consideration is mathematical or not. The SH universe would seem to be - the abstract 1s and 0s and the maths that guides their interactions. All abstract. All maths.
The simulation hypothesis is an unhelpful distraction because it merely bumps Tegmark's ideas up one metaphysical level, in effect, where they are found to be wrong for the same reasons.
They are both in relation to this universe. The SH doesn't bump his ideas anywhere, as they are talking about the same thing. Whereas the SH specifies that it is a simulation, with the substrate being outside of the universe in question, the MUH is really just asserting that our universe is akin to the 1s, the 0s, and the relationships between them... in this universe.
So, no, to me at least, and perhaps to others, the SH is not an unhelpful distraction, but rather a parallel idea that can help people wrap their heads around what Tegmark might be trying to argue for, even if not entirely the same. That you don't find it helpful, sure, I get that. Then feel free to not reply to it. Don't let it distract you.
It's not very different.
Sure, whatever you say. This I actually do find to be an unhelpful distraction. Whether you understand the fundamental difference I'm trying to explain to you or not is actually irrelevant to the wider discussion. So I won't push it.
As for Tegmark - just to repeat - whether or not we're in a simulation, Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis still fails to distinguish between mathematics and physics - a clearly meaningful distinction in the only universe we can test - universe A.
I'll ask again: have you read and understood his MUH sufficiently to be able to assert this? Or do you mean that you are not aware of how he has distinguished it, if he has? I'm just trying to see whether you're saying you think the flaw is definitely with the MUH, or perhaps that you don't know enough about it, about his arguments, to understand how he has distinguished, if he has?
 
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