We need more discussion of Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis

(continued...)
I could rag on you for not being a knowledgeable psychologist, yet you see fit to label me mentally incompetent without scientific knowledge of the mind.
If you don't even understand the basics of the topic you said you wanted to discuss, even after months of years of discussion, that raises some questions for me about your mental competence, at least when it comes to being able to distinguish superficially similar claims from one another, when it is actually the underlying differences that are supposedly the point of debate.

You have yet to demonstrate that you understand what is being discussed here. You can't articulate what my objections are to Tegmark's MUH, for instance, even though I have attempted to explain them to you several times. I don't think the problem's on my end.
Are you a psychologist qualified to judge my mental capacity? What do you know about me ?
What we know about you is what we can gather from the content of your posts to this forum, Write4U. Believe it or not, those provide quite a lot of information on which people can form judgments about you, including your likely mental capacity.

Have you formed no opinions at all on the likely mental capacities of the people whose posts you have read?

Important note: please understand that a lack of capacity in one area does not imply lack of capacity in other areas. Your failure to grasp what Tegmark is claiming about the nature of reality says nothing about your capacity for being a world-class accountant, for instance. You might also be a brilliant swimmer, or something, for all I know. But this stuff, here, obviously isn't your forte.

Also, please understand that I am never critical because a person lacks the capacity for having a useful discussion about a particular topic on this forum. I am critical of those who pretend to capacities they do not demonstrate.

Which brings us to this:
Pinball1970 said:
How can our external reality BE mathematics?
Convert everything into relational values interacting via generic mathematical principles.
Notice how Pinball1970 asked you a straightforward question, directly pertinent to the topic you said you wanted to discuss. Notice how your reply (a) does not attempt to answer the question that he asked you, (b) fails - again - to engage with the main sticking point in the current discussion, and (c) just strings some random words together, pretending like they mean something when put together in that order.

Points (a) and (b) demonstrate, once again, that you lack the capacity for discussing the topic at hand. But let's leave that to one side for now.

Point (c) strikes me as a sort of nervous twitch. It's the sort of thing you come out with whenever somebody puts a question to you that you don't understand, that you think you need to respond to (note: not answer, just respond to).

Your non-answer to Pinball1970's question makes no sense at all. It's just word salad, again. At some level - unless you actually have less mental capacity that I suspect you have - you must have been aware of that when you wrote it. But, just in case I'm wrong, here's what wrong with it.

You said "convert everything into relational values". But your claim all along has been that everything is already "relational values". If that's the case, then there's nothing to convert.

And then there's what I pointed out, but you ignored, in posts #151 and #152, above: that the term "relational values" has no actual meaning. It literally means nothing when you use it. It's just an empty place-holder that only conveys the meaning "something should go here, but Write4U doesn't know what". And the same goes for "generic mathematical principles".

And look what happens when somebody calls you on your bullshit:
What do you think it means.
relational = concerning the way in which two or more things are connected.
values = let K be a physical constant.
The value of K is defined as the number of units of the specific physical quantity that go to make up K
generic = relating to, or noting a genus, class, group, or kind; not specific; general.
mathematical= relating to, or according with mathematics. 2. a. : rigorously exact : precise.
principles = the foundation for a system of beliefs or behavior or a chain of reasoning.

Make a well-balanced word salad and add a dressing, you get a gourmet dish.
btw, "word -salad" = a mathematical object.
Somebody asked you what you meant by that word-salad nonsense of a sentence you wrote and your response to them is "What do you think it means"?

Obviously, when you post something, you're supposed to know - before you post it - what you're trying to say by writing it. An ex post facto rationalisation to yourself about what you might possibly have meant doesn't cut the mustard, Write4U.

And how about that rationalisation? What do we get from you, as far as that goes? Basic dictionary definitions of the individual words you used, but no explanation of what your intended meaning was when you strung them together. Of course, it would be silly to expect such an explanation from you because, I believe, when you write your word salad you don't actually have any particular meaning in mind. You just like to pretend you're communicating something complicated.

I don't know who you think you're fooling. It's not your readers here. Maybe it's yourself????
What you are missing is that I do not deal with detail or even in fractured science. I try to imagine a single principle that explains the observed regularities, constants that are axiomatic by general consensus, but are not invented or created.
You clearly think you're doing something useful. But what "single principle" have you ever come up with and posted here, that makes any sense? What "regularities" are you trying to explain? I don't think you know, yourself.
IMO, Universal constants are by definition mathematical in essence.
I don't know what you mean by a "universal constant". Perhaps you are referring to physical constants, like Newton's gravitational constant? Or mathematical constants like pi?

If the "constants" you are referring to are numbers, then I'm happy to agree with you that - yes - numbers are mathematical in essence. But that's stating the bleeding obvious.
"Gravity" is a mathematical geometric object. A "Fractal" is a mathematical object. A "Quantum" is a mathematical object.
Gravity: wrong.
Fractal: could be. It depends on how you define it.
A quantum: again, it could be. A quantum of sheep could be 3 sheep, which would be a mathematical quantity - a number. Which would be mathematical. But so what? It wouldn't make the sheep themselves mathematical.
OK, my question is: What else is required than the laws that govern our reality?
Reality. That's what.
Ironically, the pendulum of a clock proves the mathematical nature of "everything" in the universe.
  1. It does no such thing.
  2. That's not ironic. Or, at least, not in the way you thought it was.
Mathematics does NOT need a "mathematician" to guide the process of self-organization into regular patterns.
Mathematics can't organise itself.
I believe Tegmark is trying to figure out the potential consequences of unleashing AI into human society.
Do you believe it for any particular reason, or is it just one more random belief you have about Tegmark?

If he is trying to do that, that's all well and good, but it's a completely unrelated topic that should be discussed in a different thread.
 
Sarkus:

A couple of things came up in your replies to Write4U that I think are best addressed to you, lest they get lost in the mess of attempts to get Write4U to engage in a rational discussion.
Nothing you have posted here has any bearing on the notion of "mathematical object" that James R mentioned. He said "DNA is not a 'mathematical object'". This, I'm presuming given the context and the thread title, is in reference to what Tegmark argues for - the "everything is a mathematical structure" idea.
Yes. As you know, I am not on board with Tegmark's claim that mathematics is all there is. I do not, for instance, accept that things that are made of matter are mathematics, for reasons I have given previously.
Needless to say, what you posted is just more pretty much irrelevant stuff about things behaving in a mathematical manner. None of which is disputed. Did James R mean that DNA does not behave in a manner that could be modelled by mathematics, for example? No. He said that it was not a "mathematical object", which in context is referencing Tegmark's notion that it is nothing but mathematics. I.e. no underlying fundamental physical stuff - just mathematics.
Yes.
.... you have a pet idea, that everything is governed by / behaves according to mathematics. This in itself is absolutely fine. It is also, I wager, something that is not disputed at all by anyone here, and probably not by any scientist - the laws of physics suggest that the universe is mathematical in nature. It is, in essence, a rather trivial idea, a given, if you will. Axiomatic, perhaps.
My own view is a little different.

I tend to take a more instrumentalist view of mathematics. I am quite happy to agree that mathematics is a very useful tool for describing how our physical universe works and for predicting what physical systems will do in the future. But when it comes to saying something like "the universe is governed by mathematics", whether I take issue with that claim really depends on what the person who is making it means by it.

If all that is meant is that mathematics is very effective in describing how the universe is operating, how it has operated in the past and how it is likely to operate in the future, then there's no major problem. All that is being said, there, is that mathematics is a useful tool in the human toolbox.

If, on the other hand, what is meant is that mathematics has some sort of Platonic existence which interfaces - somehow - with the physical universe to determine how physical things behave and interact, then I think somebody might be making a more profound claim than is supported by the available evidence.

Saying "the universe is governed by mathematics" and saying "the laws of physics, as expressed in human physics textbooks, are mathematical" are two different claims. I accept the latter; I'm not so sure about the former.

It is notable that mathematics is as effective as it is when it comes to describing our physical world. Clearly, something important is going on with mathematics. I don't deny that. But I'm an empiricist, not an idealist. I don't really subscribe to the idea of Plato's eternal forms.
I have never said that Tegmark is a charlatan. You do know that posters here are not sockpuppets of a single person, right? If James R has referred to Tegmark as a charlatan, that is for you to raise with James R.
I have not referred to Tegmark as a charlatan. But while we're talking about that, I do think he is rather showy. I haven't seen enough of him to conclude that he's dishonest, so I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt on that, for now.
 
My own view is a little different.

I tend to take a more instrumentalist view of mathematics. I am quite happy to agree that mathematics is a very useful tool for describing how our physical universe works and for predicting what physical systems will do in the future. But when it comes to saying something like "the universe is governed by mathematics", whether I take issue with that claim really depends on what the person who is making it means by it.
To be clear: when I say that "the universe is governed by mathematics" I mean that the universe is governed by physical laws that can be expressed mathematically.
If all that is meant is that mathematics is very effective in describing how the universe is operating, how it has operated in the past and how it is likely to operate in the future, then there's no major problem. All that is being said, there, is that mathematics is a useful tool in the human toolbox.
I do think mathematics is more than just a tool, though. I don't think it is a "real" object, but I do think that interactions behave in line with the laws, which can be expressed exactly via maths. To me this makes the universe inherently "mathematical in nature", at least as far as we currently understand it. This, however, introduces its own issues, in the manner of some form of selection bias. I.e. we improve our understanding of the universe through science, and maths, which would otherwise tend to ignore that which is not mathematical. Hence our understanding is driven by maths. etc.
But we share the view that maths is not a real/physical thing in and of itself. Unlike that which Tegmark is espousing.
If, on the other hand, what is meant is that mathematics has some sort of Platonic existence which interfaces - somehow - with the physical universe to determine how physical things behave and interact, then I think somebody might be making a more profound claim than is supported by the available evidence.
Agreed, but I accept this mostly on intuition, and probably some form of reinforcement bias... i.e. we're taught the way the universe is, therefore we're likely to interpret everything to support that, etc.
Saying "the universe is governed by mathematics" and saying "the laws of physics, as expressed in human physics textbooks, are mathematical" are two different claims. I accept the latter; I'm not so sure about the former.
I don't see them as different claims, because I'm not aware of anything that governs the universe that is not a law of physics. And they are mathematical. Hence I think it's okay to say that the universe is governed by mathematics. But, sure, in the debate about whether mathematics has a separate reality, I guess it's important to clarify.
It is notable that mathematics is as effective as it is when it comes to describing our physical world. Clearly, something important is going on with mathematics. I don't deny that. But I'm an empiricist, not an idealist. I don't really subscribe to the idea of Plato's eternal forms.
Ok.
I have not referred to Tegmark as a charlatan. But while we're talking about that, I do think he is rather showy. I haven't seen enough of him to conclude that he's dishonest, so I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt on that, for now.
Ditto. He is one of the "celebrity physicists" of the 2000+ era, along with Michio Kaku etc. I feel their "celebrity" status may tend to give their ideas more newsorthiness, and more credence among the following, than is appropriate. For example, if the MUH was a paper/book by any other non-celebrity physicist would it have ever been given the same publicity?
 
Furthermore, while every scientist will agree that the universe is mathematical in nature, very few would consider the universe, reality itself, to not just be mathematical in nature (i.e. maths describes the relationship between particles etc) but for reality itself to be a mathematical structure. Do you even comprehend the difference?
Yes, I understand that and have said so.
Your proposition is in agreement with pretty much all scientists. I do not know of any that would dispute such a trivial and almost axiomatic (heck, if people want to tell me its axiomatic then, sure, why not!) proposition. You pulling Tegmark's name out as if you agree with him is ****ing nonsense. You agree with me, with James R, with your high school teacher, with every scientist working in science just as much as you agree with Tegmark in this regard.
Finally!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.
All scientists agree X.
Scientist A agrees X but also argues for Y.
You go out of your way, for whatever reason, to say that you agree with A that X.
Yes, I believe X is a better model than Y.
Anything wrong with that?

Let me remind you that I brought Tegmark to this forum because I thought it was worthy of discussion. From my very first post about Tegmark and the idea of a mathematical universe was slammed, including Tegmark as scientist, and my ability to understand what he is proposing.
Now we are having a spirited discussion (10 pages and counting), which proves that my contribution was a worthy one.

I have a lot of time invested here and my contributions are quietly influencing the discussion, except for the shrill ad hominem the moment I put a word in.

And even in your admission that basically I was not wrong, you attempt to disparage my person. The hypocrisy is astounding.
What is the need for this? Is it scientific to rely on argumentum ad hominem?
Argumentum ad hominem means “argument to the person” in Latin and it is commonly referred to as ad hominem argument or personal attack. Ad hominem arguments are used in debates to refute an argument by attacking the character of the person making it, instead of the logic or premise of the argument itself. Apr 21, 2023
The goal of an ad hominem argument or ad hominem attack is to refute an opposing view indirectly, without ever engaging with it. The target of the attack usually feels the need to defend themself and thus digress from the discussion topic, which shows just how powerful ad hominem arguments are.
https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/ad-hominem-fallacy/#

I need a break from this thrash heap. Later....
 
I do think mathematics is more than just a tool, though. I don't think it is a "real" object, but I do think that interactions behave in line with the laws, which can be expressed exactly via maths.
I'm not sure that we're expressing the physical laws exactly with our maths.

Physical laws are constantly being revised. We had Newton's law of gravity, which was good enough for 400 years, but then we found that it couldn't account for certain observations. Then we had Einstein's general relativity for 100 years. But there are good reasons to expect that GR is not the be all and end all when it comes to theories of gravity. So, now people are proposing string theories and the like which, so far, have not been confirmed to be an improvement on GR.

Pick any area of physics you like. What tends to happen over time is that the mathematical laws get repeatedly tweaked so that they are in accordance with new experiments or observations. On occasion, laws are thrown away and replaced by new laws, although often those new laws include the old ones as some sort of special case or approximation.

It is fair to say that our physical laws are good enough for many purposes. I just don't think it's right to claim that they govern the way the universe works. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
 
I'm not sure that we're expressing the physical laws exactly with our maths.

Physical laws are constantly being revised. We had Newton's law of gravity, which was good enough for 400 years, but then we found that it couldn't account for certain observations. Then we had Einstein's general relativity for 100 years. But there are good reasons to expect that GR is not the be all and end all when it comes to theories of gravity. So, now people are proposing string theories and the like which, so far, have not been confirmed to be an improvement on GR.

Pick any area of physics you like. What tends to happen over time is that the mathematical laws get repeatedly tweaked so that they are in accordance with new experiments or observations. On occasion, laws are thrown away and replaced by new laws, although often those new laws include the old ones as some sort of special case or approximation.

It is fair to say that our physical laws are good enough for many purposes. I just don't think it's right to claim that they govern the way the universe works. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Agree. It should also be borne in mind that the practical utility of mathematics in science is limited to comparatively simple or idealised physical systems, of the kind that is often dealt with in physics. In most of the other sciences mathematical models, where they exist at all, give only approximate predictions, due to the complexity of real systems. This is not to deny that one can imagine, at least in principle*, that the complexities could potentially be modelled mathematically, but the effort would be a waste of time.

*As Walter J Moore memorably stated in the undergraduate physical chemistry textbook I had at university, "from en principe oui, a French expression meaning non". :wink:

For this reason I am a bit suspicious of attempts to raise mathematics on too high a pedestal in science, and in particular of the claim, which I have sometimes come across, that until you have a mathematical model you have not got a proper scientific theory.
 
It is fair to say that our physical laws are good enough for many purposes. I just don't think it's right to claim that they govern the way the universe works. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
But they are always mathematical in essence. We are not talking about Human mathematics. We are talking about generic Universal mathematics and they don't change.
You are talking about human mathematics and its incompleteness. But humans do not run the universe. The Universe runs us.

Universal mathematics do and they do not change for humans. Humans need to learn universal mathematics, not the other way around.
 
I'm not sure that we're expressing the physical laws exactly with our maths.
Perhaps not at the moment, but the principle is that those absolute laws can be expressed exactly with mathematics. Whether we have the full understanding of the laws at present is neither here nor there, I'd suggest.
Physical laws are constantly being revised. We had Newton's law of gravity, which was good enough for 400 years, but then we found that it couldn't account for certain observations. Then we had Einstein's general relativity for 100 years. But there are good reasons to expect that GR is not the be all and end all when it comes to theories of gravity. So, now people are proposing string theories and the like which, so far, have not been confirmed to be an improvement on GR.
Sure. And how many of these are non-mathematical? All improvements are still mathematical - i.e. can be expressed exactly as understood by maths.
Pick any area of physics you like. What tends to happen over time is that the mathematical laws get repeatedly tweaked so that they are in accordance with new experiments or observations. On occasion, laws are thrown away and replaced by new laws, although often those new laws include the old ones as some sort of special case or approximation.
Not disputed. But let's dispense with what our understanding of them is, and look at the objective laws. The principle is that these laws can still be expressed exactly by mathematics. Is that contentious? What would be an alternative?
It is fair to say that our physical laws are good enough for many purposes. I just don't think it's right to claim that they govern the way the universe works. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Sure - no dispute between descriptive and prescriptive. By "governed by" I simply mean that things act in accordance with. I don't intend it as presuming a causal relationship, that maths somehow causes.
 
Yes, I understand that and have said so.
Finally!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.
You seem to be getting excited by what is trivial, and by what everyone accepts almost as axiomatic within science. You're extraordinarily late to the party. If that excites you then sure. You're up to speed. Now drop your enthusiasm for that if you want to discuss higher issues, as is being done here.
Yes, I believe X is a better model than Y.
Anything wrong with that?
Not per se, but you shouldn't then bleat on about someone who is famous for espousing Y, saying that you agree with him... only to then admit you agree with him about X and not Y. It is disingenuous of you.
I have a lot of time invested here and my contributions are quietly influencing the discussion, except for the shrill ad hominem the moment I put a word in.
No, they're not influencing discussion. At least not relevantly.
And even in your admission that basically I was not wrong, you attempt to disparage my person. The hypocrisy is astounding.
There's no hypocrisy. You can be right about X, but bleating on about it when we're discussing Y is a character flaw you have. Pointing that out in the hope you stop derailing threads is not unreasonable. Saying that you're right about X does not mean you're vindicated in your manner.
What is the need for this? Is it scientific to rely on argumentum ad hominem?
The need has been explained. You are disruptive. That speaks to character, to the person. Yet you still can't seem to understand why you are disruptive, despite numerous people explaining it to you.
 
Sure - no dispute between descriptive and prescriptive. By "governed by" I simply mean that things act in accordance with. I don't intend it as presuming a causal relationship, that maths somehow causes.
That's why I use the term Guiding principle instead of causality.
Not disputed. But let's dispense with what our understanding of them is, and look at the objective laws. The principle is that these laws can still be expressed exactly by mathematics. Is that contentious? What would be an alternative?
I wish I could have said it exactly that way. I've come close....
Not per se, but you shouldn't then bleat on about someone who is famous for espousing Y, saying that you agree with him... only to then admit you agree with him about X and not Y. It is disingenuous of you.
I am not sure where you got that analogy from. I have supported and have been chided for my consistency in advancing Tegmark's concept of Reality.

Frankly, I see no difference between your concept of a MU and Tegmark's concept of a MU. Once his MU is accepted, the rest falls in place.

I tried to make a distinction between "human numbers" and "natural (generic) mathematically relational values".
I have never seen a "3" in the universe, but I have seen triangulation in both Nature and in Human geometry, which means it is a correct description of spacetime geometrical properties.
th


Relation in Math | Definition, Representations & Examples
In math, a relation shows the relationship between x- and y-values in ordered pairs. The set of x-values is called the domain, and the set of y-values is called the range. Relations can be displayed as tables, mappings or graphs.
...
What does relation mean in math? The relation definition in math helps a viewer understand how the independent variable, x, and the dependent variable, y, are related to each other. If this relation is represented as an ordered pair, the x and y relationship is written (x, y)
What is a relationship in math? A relation in math is a representation of the relationship between two sets of numbers, the domain and range. The relation tells the user the output if a specific input is given. For example, the ordered pair (-3, 2) is a relationship between -3 in the domain and 2 in the range. If -3 is inputted into the relation, 2 is the output.
Actually, I believe that algebra is a better representation of natural physics than numbers. The mathematical aspect remains the same.
It does away with arbitrary symbolization of values.
What is a relation in algebra? In Algebra, a relation is a rule that describes the relationship between two sets of numbers. We can represent a relation as a set of ordered pairs, a table, a mapping, or a graph. What does relation mean in math? The relation definition in math helps a viewer understand how the independent variable, x, and the dependent variable, y, are related to each other. If this relation is represented as an ordered pair, the x and y relationship is written (x, y). Consider this relation math example, if we sampled the students in a classroom and measured their height and weight, one data point in the relation could be written as (50, 90). In this example, the student is 50 inches tall and weighs 90 pounds. We could continue collecting data from all the students in the classroom and create a set of ordered pairs that represented the classroom.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/relation-in-math-definition-examples.html#

In Nature this happens spontaneously and in a self-ordering manner.
 
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The need has been explained. You are disruptive. That speaks to character, to the person. Yet you still can't seem to understand why you are disruptive, despite numerous people explaining it to you.
Disruptive?
Am I screaming too much, pounding my fists on the table? What on earth are you talking about? My words are disruptive? In what way? another POV? At least they are NOT ad hominem. I don't disparage anybody's intellect and I don't call anybody wrong. I just present my POV of what I believe is closest to the truth.

My delivery? I believe it deserves perhaps a little deeper interpretation than it has been afforded, until just recently when the subject was given some serious consideration. I have yet not seen any serious refutation of Tegmark's MUH.
Sure - no dispute between descriptive and prescriptive. By "governed by" I simply mean that things act in accordance with. I don't intend it as presuming a causal relationship, that maths somehow causes.
.I agree.

p.s. You use the term "governed", I use Bohm's term "guided by". Close enough?

p.p.s. I don't want to give his "multiverse" any thought. If we have no "relations" with other universes, it seems like a futile enterprise.
 
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Disruptive?
Am I screaming too much, pounding my fists on the table? What on earth are you talking about?
Disruptive with irrelevant or word salad comments.

I believe that algebra is a better representation of natural physics than numbers
Stuff like this

. The mathematical aspect remains the same. It does away with arbitrary symbolization of values.
And this.
 
Disruptive with irrelevant or word salad comments.
Stuff like this.
And this.
And what exactly is irrelevant about universal mechanics? The POVs I present on this subject are not my own but in support of one or more accredited scientists. Are these POVs irrelevant?

If you have any questions I will answer them as best I can. But your 1 word comments are not productive in any way.
At least James has done me the courtesy of asking for clarification on occasion, which I always have endeavored to answer and to my knowledge never been proved wrong in my interpretation, except for a minor detail here or there.
Sarkus now (grudgingly), seems to be very much in agreement in principle on the issue of Tegmark's mathematical universe.

So what is your problem?
 
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Actually, I believe that algebra is a better representation of natural physics than numbers
This for instance, what do you mean by this? What do you mean by 'natural' physics?
What do you mean by algebra being a ' better representation?'
 
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Constantly having to point out your errors, misconceptions.
It slows down the discussion.
I'd think it would clarify items in dispute.
This for instance, what do you mean by this? What do you mean by 'natural' physics?
Naturally occurring physical relationships, based on relational values and mathematical functions.
What do you mean by algebra being a ' better representation?'
Algebra is value-neutral and explains the mathematical interactive process, rather than calculating for a specific result.

algebra, mathematics
Algebra is a branch of mathematics in which arithmetic operations and other formal manipulations are applied to abstract symbols rather than specific numbers. Geometry is the branch of mathematics that deals with the shape of objects, their spatial relations, and the properties of the space the objects are in. Nov 14, 2023
Algebra | History, Definition, & Facts | Britannica
 
Naturally occurring physical relationships, based on relational values and mathematical functions.
It's all "natural" you are getting confused with natural philosophy.
The other part of the sentence is yet more word salad. Word salad begets word salad.
 
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