Way of Life

[Cyperium]

I'm sure that many christians have wondered why we live in the first place, why didn't God create us instantly as we would become in His new creation.

This is mainly directed at christians, not atheists, but if atheists want to discuss then go ahead. But this isn't for the purpouse of discussing atheist-theist, but rather to give a idea theist to theist.

I know atheist use this as a argument against God, but they are really simply stating the fact that they don't know "why we weren't created instantly".

I think that there are a higher meaning to it, and in a attempt to visualize it I got this idea.



*---This is totally fictional from what I can understand at this time---*
V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V



A boy stands before God and asks:

boy: Why weren't I created like this instantly? Why did I have to go through life?

God points His finger and ZAAP a copy of the boy is made.

boy: But he...I...doesn't live?

God: That's because he hasn't found his way of living yet.



A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
*---This is totally fictional from what I can understand at this time---*



Ok, so let's analyse this for a moment.

On earth, in this life, we don't really live by ourselves, our body supports us and in the long run everything is ruled by God. So for something to exists by itself and thus be totally pure - in that it doesn't consist of any other building parts than it's own essence - it has to be purified in some way. Suffering is one way of purification, it's like burning something, all bacteria vanishes. There are two kinds of suffering though, suffering because you have done something bad and suffering because someone else is doing something bad to you (or something else). The latter part is the suffering that has the most "cleaning ability", since it takes away unjust that you have done. Love is also a purification (by love many sins will be forgiven).

So for us to be independent beings (which we allready has a taste for because of "free will", "awareness" and many other abilities - or gifts as I want to see it) we have to find the way to support ourselves (even if that means with God's help). I believe Life is that way.

This is just an idea that I have, so if anyone find anything that contradicts with the Bible, or something that's just plainly wrong. Then post it and I'll see what I think.

 

[§outh§tar]

I find what you are saying to be extremely heretical, Cyperium.


First thing I want to say:
We do not know everything about God. When atheists hear this they make a stupid snorting sound and throw their hands up in the air like, "Aha! Finally you admit it" because we correctly admit that the finite cannot know the infinite.

That said, the finite sees the infinite simply because the infinite reveals itself. (Also called grace)

The Bible has NEVER EVER EVER indicated that we will ever be independent beings. I find that saying to be extremely heretical and I would like you to show some Scripture to support your claim since it is after all the basis of your argument.

 

[Q25]

We do not know everything about God.

sure we do,we/people created/invented gods

and if you believe that god exists,didnt the bible says God created man in his image,
wouldnt that include the mind/brain and all His knowledge!

because we correctly admit that the finite cannot know the infinite.

dont you believe that you will have eternal life in heaven?
how does it make you finite?

 

[§outh§tar]

sure we do,we/people created/invented gods

and if you believe that god exists,didnt the bible says God created man in his image,
wouldnt that include the mind/brain and all His knowledge!

Wow you should read the accounts more carefully.

“Spirit” may refer to the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.” A sacred writer noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah” (Prov. 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth.

Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15), and Paul noted that it is man’s spirit that is capable of “knowing” things (1 Cor. 2:11). Paul also affirmed that church discipline is designed to save a man’s “spirit” in the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 5:5; see also, 1 Cor. 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; Jas. 2:26).

From http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/soulSpiritQuestion.htm

dont you believe that you will have eternal life in heaven?
how does it make you finite?

That doesn't mean I will be omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent. How can I therefore be infinite? If I were to be infinite then I would be equal to God since He is infinite.

 

[Adstar]

dont you believe that you will have eternal life in heaven?
how does it make you finite?

Yes i believe i will exist for ever more that makes me eternal it does not make me infinite. Infinite has a lot more elements to it than just being eternal.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: everyone is eternal no one shall cease to exist.

 

[Neildo]

and if you believe that god exists,didnt the bible says God created man in his image,
wouldnt that include the mind/brain and all His knowledge!

Well that's just Christianity and we all know the problems with *that* religion. Pick another religion and things are much more interesting. I prefer Hinduism when it comes to spirituality and historical myth, and then Eastern thought is fun to turn ordinary perceptions upside down, heh. If only more Christians read Hindu scripts..

- N

 

[Q25]

Wow you should read the accounts more carefully.

“Spirit” may refer to the “inward man” (2 Cor. 4:16) that is fashioned in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27), and thus be a synonym of “soul.” A sacred writer noted that the “spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah” (Prov. 20:27); this is an allusion to that element of man that distinguishes him from the beasts of the earth.

Daniel affirmed that his “spirit” was “grieved” within his body (Dan. 7:15), and Paul noted that it is man’s spirit that is capable of “knowing” things (1 Cor. 2:11). Paul also affirmed that church discipline is designed to save a man’s “spirit” in the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 5:5; see also, 1 Cor. 16:18; 2 Cor. 7:1; Jas. 2:26).

From http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/soulSpiritQuestion.htm

how typical for xian site using words like "may" or "could be" etc when explaining meaning of the bible words.

soul,spirits aint no such thing,

www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

 

[§outh§tar]

how typical for xian site using words like "may" or "could be" etc when explaining meaning of the bible words.

soul,spirits aint no such thing,

www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

Wow you really must be ignorant when it comes to grammer.

OBVIOUSLY, the word "spirit" can be interpreted in more than one way, according to context. Secondly, I OBVIOUSLY copied and pasted the paragraph, which should tell you that it came from a larger article discussing the different meanings of words.

Therefore by context, spirit may also refer to:

^^ is what the paragraph was saying.

Anyhow I'm assuming that was all you managed to find a problem with. All you could find to pick at was a grammatical issue that you failed on your own part to comprehend. I hope the issue is now clearer for you.

 

[Cyperium]

I find what you are saying to be extremely heretical, Cyperium.


First thing I want to say:
We do not know everything about God. When atheists hear this they make a stupid snorting sound and throw their hands up in the air like, "Aha! Finally you admit it" because we correctly admit that the finite cannot know the infinite.

That said, the finite sees the infinite simply because the infinite reveals itself. (Also called grace)

The Bible has NEVER EVER EVER indicated that we will ever be independent beings. I find that saying to be extremely heretical and I would like you to show some Scripture to support your claim since it is after all the basis of your argument.

Of course God will allways be the most independent, nothing can change that. But with God's help we can be independent to a much higher degree than we are now.

That doesn't mean that we don't need to trust God, or that God will have no influence on us, with independent beings I mean that we have to be true to ourselves - be ourselves. Instead of following lies and deception.

Of course there are flaws in the story that I made, but it's only to show you that there can be explanations as to why we have to go through life and why God didn't create us with eternal life directly.

We can be independent, but only with God supporting us. Independent maybe are the wrong word? I don't think so though, God is so far beyond us that I think we can be independent even though God is supporting us. I think...that the more we trust God the more independent we get...I have a feeling that there is something to this.

We shouldn't do our own will, but the will of God...God knows what is best for us. We are constantly doing things that really aren't our will. We follow temptations and do bad things for us and others. God should know the way to do what we really want. Life may be a way of showing us.

I agree that the finite cannot know the infinite. But only what is revealed to us. Though I haven't said that I "knew" this. It's just a suggestion and I did say "even if it means with God's help" - which means that I don't rule God out of the picture. God has put everything under Him. To be honest I wouldn't want to be 100% independent if it wasn't with Gods help and if I didn't follow rules, cause I wouldn't know what to do. With no rules I wouldn't have anything to strive for, no meaning.

Ok, now for another part of this. I say "totally pure"...no human is totally pure...but the Bible do tell us that after we have transformed sin won't exist to us, I guess we wouldn't have any idea of sin...thus being more or less in a state of totally pure. And our bodies won't break down which also suggest that we are pure.

Or am I wrong with this? I believe the Bible uses another word but I don't have the english word for it, I have the Swedish though and it's "oförgängligt", the closest english word that I find in the dictionary is "unperishable".

If you still find that I've got the wrong idea of this, please post and tell me.

 

[Cyperium]

how typical for xian site using words like "may" or "could be" etc when explaining meaning of the bible words.

soul,spirits aint no such thing,

www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

I don't think that site made it clear. They find a piece of the puzzle and think they have solved it all.

How do you reason when saying that there aint no such thing as a soul or a spirit?

Give good arguments, I won't get into a I-know-better-than-you debate.

 

[Cyperium]

Well that's just Christianity and we all know the problems with *that* religion. Pick another religion and things are much more interesting. I prefer Hinduism when it comes to spirituality and historical myth, and then Eastern thought is fun to turn ordinary perceptions upside down, heh. If only more Christians read Hindu scripts..

- N

You didn't see the problem with his statement?

To be created in someones image, does that mean that we have ALL the abilities? To ALL extent? You accept his conclusion because you don't believe christianity. Though we that believe know what we believe in and his conclusion doesn't match our belief, thus we find arguments. But then again, so do you when our belief doesn't match your belief. So how can we know?

To actually find the flaws with christianity, you have to understand it. Otherwise you don't know what could be a flaw in that set of beliefs. Though we that understand it, find flaws but then we understand that there has to be more to it and thus search for the answer. Though you that don't believe probably will deny christianity based on that flaw and thus won't find the answer to it (even if it is told to you) maybe because what is told to you don't fit with your belief? Thus make arguments...and it goes on and on...we won't find the truth this way.

I could be wrong though...cause maybe I don't understand you...thus don't know what could be the flaw...or?

 

[§outh§tar]

Of course God will allways be the most independent, nothing can change that. But with God's help we can be independent to a much higher degree than we are now.

The Bible never says "we can be independent to a much higher degree" with or withour God's "help".

Of course there are flaws in the story that I made, but it's only to show you that there can be explanations as to why we have to go through life and why God didn't create us with eternal life directly.

Why should he give glory and honor to those who don't deserve it. By God's will, through the blood of Christ, we are washed anew. New creatures, is what the Bible calls it.

We can be independent, but only with God supporting us.

In that case it's not being "independent".

[/QUOTE]Independent maybe are the wrong word? I don't think so though, God is so far beyond us that I think we can be independent even though God is supporting us. I think...that the more we trust God the more independent we get...I have a feeling that there is something to this.[/quote]

Not only is there no scriptural basis to the notion of becoming independent, you cannot possibly be independent when you are totally depending on God for sustainment and spiritual renewal. Even Satan depends on God to exist.

We shouldn't do our own will, but the will of God...God knows what is best for us. We are constantly doing things that really aren't our will. We follow temptations and do bad things for us and others. God should know the way to do what we really want. Life may be a way of showing us.

That's not the purpose of life since heaven is going to be nothing like our life now. What you are going to be doing for the 90-100 or whatever years of your life is NOT going to compare with what you do for the rest of eternity.

I agree that the finite cannot know the infinite. But only what is revealed to us. Though I haven't said that I "knew" this. It's just a suggestion and I did say "even if it means with God's help" - which means that I don't rule God out of the picture. God has put everything under Him. To be honest I wouldn't want to be 100% independent if it wasn't with Gods help and if I didn't follow rules, cause I wouldn't know what to do. With no rules I wouldn't have anything to strive for, no meaning.

There is no such thing as a slave of Christ being independent. Again, there is NO Biblical evidence of this. We are not even 0.001% independent.

Ok, now for another part of this. I say "totally pure"...no human is totally pure...but the Bible do tell us that after we have transformed sin won't exist to us, I guess we wouldn't have any idea of sin...thus being more or less in a state of totally pure. And our bodies won't break down which also suggest that we are pure.

That is true. We will be holy, presumably as holy as God is. The only thing that taints is sin and since there will be no sin, we can confidently say that we will be as holy as our King. As it is written in Scripture:

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do

Or am I wrong with this? I believe the Bible uses another word but I don't have the english word for it, I have the Swedish though and it's "oförgängligt", the closest english word that I find in the dictionary is "unperishable".

Quite a mouthful there So we are holy and will be, that doesn't make us any more independent. We STILL depend on the blood of Christ for Holiness. I can't say that will be the case in heaven, but Scripture provides no such evidence of independence.

 

[yinyinwang]

you want every of us live the same way?

 

[Q25]

I don't think that site made it clear. They find a piece of the puzzle and think they have solved it all.

How do you reason when saying that there aint no such thing as a soul or a spirit?

define soul then,
what its made of,where is it,and what does it do?
maybe you want to start a new thread,if it wasnt discused before.

Give good arguments, I won't get into a I-know-better-than-you debate.

maybe you need to read it again,its pretty simple
www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

basicaly it comes down to
dead people dont breathe,so people
(way back then knew nothing about science/medicine etc)thought that was their soul leaving the body,that why they refer to soul as breath/air/wind etc

 

[Leo Volont]

The Truth is that the Universe is Spiritually Polar. At one end of the Pole we have total inert lifelessness, and at the other we have the Total Love and Consciousness that is God.

I think it would be selfish to suppose that God who has All Eternity available to Him should create a Shortcut for Humanity which could only deprive Himself of a wonderful Show to Watch.

Besides, your presupposition that all of Humanity will one day evolve into the Angelic and the Spiritual may be entirely unwarranted. The Cosmis Christ manifested Himself as Man to help lift us up and move us forward, and we Killed Him for His trouble. Now look at us. By the Nazi success in Europe and the Republican success in America, it is not at all sure that Humanity is not rather degenerating toward the Animal then evolving toward the Spiritual.

 

[Cyperium]

The Bible never says "we can be independent to a much higher degree" with or withour God's "help".



Why should he give glory and honor to those who don't deserve it. By God's will, through the blood of Christ, we are washed anew. New creatures, is what the Bible calls it.




In that case it's not being "independent".


Not only is there no scriptural basis to the notion of becoming independent, you cannot possibly be independent when you are totally depending on God for sustainment and spiritual renewal. Even Satan depends on God to exist.



That's not the purpose of life since heaven is going to be nothing like our life now. What you are going to be doing for the 90-100 or whatever years of your life is NOT going to compare with what you do for the rest of eternity.



There is no such thing as a slave of Christ being independent. Again, there is NO Biblical evidence of this. We are not even 0.001% independent.



That is true. We will be holy, presumably as holy as God is. The only thing that taints is sin and since there will be no sin, we can confidently say that we will be as holy as our King. As it is written in Scripture:

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

1 Peter 1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do


Quite a mouthful there So we are holy and will be, that doesn't make us any more independent. We STILL depend on the blood of Christ for Holiness. I can't say that will be the case in heaven, but Scripture provides no such evidence of independence.

Ok, I realise now that I mean something else with independence .

But it's almost the same thing.

Read carefully, cause I think this is true:

In life we are often doing things that are wrong because of the temptation to do so, and because evil influences (and whatever other cause there may be - pride for example).

So we do things that we don't really want to do.

We have a free will, but I guess the more we trust God, the more we do what we really want. If we go against God then we do things that we really don't want to do, since we know what is right and what is wrong (allthough we may "forget" at the moment).

So what I mean is, that "independece" ~ "to do what we really want" comes from trusting God. Since He has the method for us to do it the right way.

I guess this is similar to be moved by the holy spirit. Trusting God to such a degree that He almost controls you - though it's you doing His will.

Ok, I guess this is just proximatly what I mean. But it holds the feeling I had to start with.

Sorry about the confusion.

 

[Cyperium]

you want every of us live the same way?

I don't know who you are asking now...

I can give you some clues though. The Bible say that everything has a certain glance (like the stars have it's shine, the moon have it's shine and the sun have it's shine), so have each human it's certain characteristic, I guess there should be a supreme way of living that holds every need for everyone in a single lifestyle, but then we have evil in the world which may seperate us from that way of living. But in God's view we are all the same.

 

[Cyperium]

define soul then,
what its made of,where is it,and what does it do?
maybe you want to start a new thread,if it wasnt discused before.

maybe you need to read it again,its pretty simple
www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html

basicaly it comes down to
dead people dont breathe,so people
(way back then knew nothing about science/medicine etc)thought that was their soul leaving the body,that why they refer to soul as breath/air/wind etc

The soul is the "living" force that is within all life.

Breath is a good picture of that, and I guess that's why they used it. Or breath have a number of significant interpretations that holds true with the soul also (as it being invisible...and so on... I guess there are more, I'm just too tired to figure it out right now)...

However, what is the soul? What does it look like? So on, so on...

I've heard that each person lives in his own spiritual reality and that there are gifts which can make a person see what spiritual reality someone else belongs to.

I can't define soul, I guess soul is just what is.

The Bible say that we have borrowed the spirit, and that God jellously demands His spirit back.

I can't describe awareness either...

Oh, and explain to me. What is a process exactly, what parts make a "process" and how can the process give rise to the mind?

Still. The question remains, what is the mind? As a whole as we experiance it.

Even though there may be all kinds of processes beneath it all. What is on top? What is the processess building.

The mind you say? Or the mind is the process? But then again, we experiance the process as a "object" where is that object? Where is the world that you see?

 

[Cyperium]

The Truth is that the Universe is Spiritually Polar. At one end of the Pole we have total inert lifelessness, and at the other we have the Total Love and Consciousness that is God.

I think it would be selfish to suppose that God who has All Eternity available to Him should create a Shortcut for Humanity which could only deprive Himself of a wonderful Show to Watch.

Besides, your presupposition that all of Humanity will one day evolve into the Angelic and the Spiritual may be entirely unwarranted. The Cosmis Christ manifested Himself as Man to help lift us up and move us forward, and we Killed Him for His trouble. Now look at us. By the Nazi success in Europe and the Republican success in America, it is not at all sure that Humanity is not rather degenerating toward the Animal then evolving toward the Spiritual.

Well...Sure Jesus died, but the message is that He died for our sins and that He lived three days after His death. It didn't end with Jesus death.

I guess I can see the picture you are building, that there are extremes at both sides, and...sorry if I'm wrong, but are you describing some kind of sorting process where all good is sorted at one side and all bad is sorted at the other?

I don't know exactly how it works, so I can't say anything about it really. All I can say is that it didn't end with Jesus, history isn't finished yet.

...and I don't think He made a movie out of us...

 

[§outh§tar]

Ok, I realise now that I mean something else with independence .

But it's almost the same thing.

Read carefully, cause I think this is true:

In life we are often doing things that are wrong because of the temptation to do so, and because evil influences (and whatever other cause there may be - pride for example).

So we do things that we don't really want to do.

We have a free will, but I guess the more we trust God, the more we do what we really want. If we go against God then we do things that we really don't want to do, since we know what is right and what is wrong (allthough we may "forget" at the moment).

So what I mean is, that "independece" ~ "to do what we really want" comes from trusting God. Since He has the method for us to do it the right way.

I guess this is similar to be moved by the holy spirit. Trusting God to such a degree that He almost controls you - though it's you doing His will.

Ok, I guess this is just proximatly what I mean. But it holds the feeling I had to start with.

Sorry about the confusion.

Well, I am afraid there is actually no Biblical basis for that assumption either.

As you can see from Romans 1:28, before salvation, we are inclined and LOVE to do evil. See the proceeding verses 29-31. This is similarly observed in Romans 3:10-18.

There is absolutely no proof that we sin although we don't want to. The Bible actually says that humans are by nature carnally minded, and there is no life in us. See Romans 8:5.


There is no way a human being ever reaches out for God without His grace playing a role. Without his goodness and longsuffering, we are condemned and all mouths are shut in guilt. (Romans 2:4) Human beings never want to do God's will. We do the things we want to do. As new creations in Christ, it is our nature to do His bidding. As dead creations in the world, it was our nature to be at enmity with Him. Romans 5:10.

Do try to show some Scriptural authority for your arguments next time, that way they carry a lot more weight!