Was Jesus God...

ellion said:
... a verse in revelation … a … work received by John from the angel (ghost/spirit) of Jesus…
"and i fell down at his feet to worship him and he said unto me see thou do it not i am of thy brethren the servants and the prophets worship god"
Half points.

King James Version: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Net Bible: So I threw myself down at his feet to worship him, but he said, "Do not do this! I am only a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony about Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony about Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
You did pretty well from memory. However, in chapter 17, this speaker is identified as
Net Bible: Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls...
It isn't Jesus who is talking to John at this point. The speaker is 'another angel', not any part of the God head. You'll also notice the wording "I am one … that have (hold to) the testimony of Jesus"; not speaking of himself.

Ellion, let me go out on a limb here; you're probably a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, with a minor possibility of being LDS.
 
Raven, you obviously have no desire for any truth.

The problem of Jesus talking with God (the Father) is easily explained by the Trinity. Wait! Wait! Don’t tell me! You deny the Trinity as well, right?
One Raven said:
Please don't presume to make such far-reaching assumptions about me, who I am and what I do or do not believe.
Assumptions? Assumptions are for those who don't know. If I haven't discussed this very point with you before, I discussed it with your clone. At my age, probably from whom you were cloned.

If you didn't have "… pre-conceived notions and a specific agenda… " and were "… simply looking for truth…" you would see it. The Triune God does not hid from anyone, but there are many who hide from Him.

Have a nice forever.
 
You don't know a damned thing about me, you condescending, arrogant, ass.
If you have specific arguments against what I have said, please be my guest and post them.
If not, don't bother attempting to psychoanalyze me by comparing myself to you - it will not work.

If you don't have a valid refutation of what I have said, show some spine and integrity by simply saying so.
Or is your faith so shallow and hollow that you can't admit such a thing?

As for the Trinity...
It is simple, apologetic nonsense designed to fill in the blanks between what Jesus taught and what the church decided they want to teach.
Feel free to quote the Bible supporting that the Trinity is a valid hypothesis.
Something else you will not find.
Show me where Jesus said he was God, not the Son of God, but God, or part of the Triune Godhead.
It's not there.

Again, you can believe whatever you like, I am not calling that into question, what I am calling into question is support for such beliefs in Jesus' teachings.
Where is it?
 
Archie:

no, i am not christian at all. my view of the judeo-christian teaching falls more into line with islamic tradition but i am not muslim either. just that for me the koran reconciles the flaws in the other two testaments.


i see the angels of the seven churches are all the spirit of jesus that talks with john.

always in revelation it is the spirit / angel of jesus speaking with john though it is clothed with garments (girt about the chest with a golden girdle). under the guise of symbolism is a revelation of the true spirit of prophecy.

another verse from memory:
i am he that walks amongst the seven golden candlesticks.

and another:

and in the midst of the seven candle sticks one like unto the son of man.

and:

the mystery of the seven stars that thou sawest in my right hand is this the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven candlesticks are the churches.

and:

i beheld in the midst of the throne and the elders a lamb having seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven spirits of god sent forth in to all the earth.


it always the same spirit that speaks with john: think of what the spirit says:

i will give unto him, i am he, i will come unto thee. etc.

the same spirit in different garb.
a verse:
and his countenace was like the sun shineth in its strength.

whose eyes are like a flaming fire:

and a sharp two edeged sword cometh out of his mouth.

his feet where as brass as though they burned in a furnace

how many times are alterations of such images used in the revelation? lots!

and i saw another angel come out of heaven and a rainbow was upon his head and his face where as it where a sun and his feet as pillars of fire.


this is only my interpretaion of the symbols used in the revelation. along with the symbolism of zecharia, ezekiel and daniel. i am self proclaimed adept of esoteric sybmolism. but interpretation and meaning is forever a subjective ordeal.


this is near the begining of the book
and when i saw him i fell at his feet as though dead, and he laid his right hand on me and he said unto me fear not i am the first and the last.i am he that liveth and is dead and behold i am alive forever more. and have the keys of hell and of death.


and as you kindly found for me,
from near the end of the book
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
 
Hi. For the person calling people stupid have a look at yourself first, there is no reason to judge someone because they are searching for truth, in fact if anything that should make you think more of them. You will find it isn't stupid at all to ask where Jesus said He was God, because if you've ever argued the point with a mormon of J.W then you'll find they've got unique ways of looking at things which makes it very hard to prove a point. Sorry I don't have verses and chapters handy, unlike some I can never remember verses and chapter numbers.

There are a few things to get straight first, either Jesus is God or a lunatic. There is no 'great teacher' classification, either He listened to voices in His head and was crazy enough to die due to them, dying in such a way that a sain person would have avoided. Teachers don't die for their teachings, they aren't worth dying for unless they are devine, in which case Jesus was God, because that is what He taught. Where though???

Jesus is called Lord a lot, however in the New Testament He isn't called Yahweh, which means God. Thomas does call Him 'my Lord and my God' in John, but because Thomas wasn't Jesus, Jehovah Witness's say Thomas was mistaken, he was only a man. Jesus didn't say, you're right, or you're wrong, so it's really your preconcieved idea of Jesus which gives you your point of view out of this one. An interesting observation is however, that God the Father was called Lord half the time in the Old Testament, Jesus was called Lord all the time in the New Testament. Jehovah Witness's don't like this point. Jesus also says 'before the world was made I am'. J.W change it to 'I was' to get out of this, the translation is very biased obviously to prove the J.W's point, interpretation rules come to the conclusion the 'I am' is the best translation, but lets not get into interpretation I haven't studied ancient greek and hebrew yet. But the reaction of the Pharasies poves the point that Jesus was claiming to be God because God in the Old Testament calls Himself the 'I am'. This is because the Pharasies proceeded to try to stone Jesus to kill Him, and what is judge as worthy of death in Ancient Jewish Law? Blasphemy, that is what they judged Jesus as claiming, that He was God, therefore they judged by their Law that they should kill Him. J.W's say Jesus just pushed them too far, which of course is there point of view because they want it to be. The only real way of proving Jesus was God according to the Bible is finding somewhere in the Bible where Jesus is said to be Yahweh by God Himself. So where is this written? Remeber He can't be called Lord, even though God the Father is called Lord in the Old Testament, He must be called Yahweh! You'll find this in only one place, a place which the J.W's have missed and have actually translated properly, Isiah chapter 40 (I think, popular verse anyway you'll find it) Isiah the Prophet speaking the words of God the Father Himself, said "And there will be a voice comming from the desert, prepare the way for God" The original language says prepare the way for Yahweh, John the Baptist was the voice in the desert preparing the way for who? Jesus! So Jesus is called GOD Yahweh. Pretty convincing if you believe the Bible, which is a whole other topic. ALso remember Jesus always wanted to Glorify His father, so He always put the emphasis on Him, the Father is the Head of the Trinity. Jesus was also a man at the time, and when He says things like 'I don't know when the Last days will be', it is because He gave up much of His devine nature when He came down to Earth as a man. He had to or else He wouldn't have been human now would He? Very hard to understand, but He is God and God is a lot more complicated then us humans and we don't even understand ourselves half the Time. One more thing. The Trinity God the Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. The Father is the Head, He decides what to do, the Son is God but He goes along with the Fathers will, and the Holy Spirit does the Will of the Father as well. This relationship is like this in order to function. You can't have the Father wanting to turn right, the Son wanting to turn left, and the Spirit wanting to go back. Function in Unity dictates authority. The Son isn't anything less for doing the will of the Father, and neither the Spirit, they simply have different functions in the same entity. Confusing hey! But show me an ant that can understand a space shuttle, and I'll be able to show you a man who can understand God.

Hope that helps a bit.

CyA
 
Oh and I almost forgot the second best proof. In Revelations Jesus claims to be the Alpha and the Omega. Which is the first and last letter in Greek. So He is the first and the Last! Who else claimed this? Yahweh God claimed He was the first and the Last in the Old Testament. So how many firsts are there and how many lasts? They both claim to be the same thing. I think that is a pretty good argument anyway, unfortunately I didn't know of it when I had J.W's knocking on my door last time.

Anyway Bye
 
one_raven said:
Do you have anything to say about all I just posted.
I did respond to the "i am my father are one." quote.

you're a nice raven.

one raven said:
This is why it was written in the neuter case, because he WASN'T saying he and God are one person.

um... the person is not god... but the self is. if i glorify my person, my glory means nothing, but if i do the right thing, if i glorify my real self, the truth, then it is the truth which glorifies me.

christ said once that he is the truth. he meant it.

when we're honest, we follow god. god said: "i am what i am". if we are what we are, if we're honest, we are god. because that's everything god is... the higher self.

the trinity of the self is when the knower, the known and the knowledge are one.

the trinity doesn't exist just in christianity, but also in hinduism, and other religions.
 
answers said:
They haven't been called Yahweh though, that's the difference. Big difference too.
well they have been called YHVH (lord)
if you pronounce that yahweh maybe your right, they may not have been called yahweh.

YHVH translates as the word lord and has the meaning of eternal self, or self existent.

other hebrew words that have been translated into the english word lord are

ADNY (adoni) meaning The Lord as a proper name of God, this is used very rarely in the torah in comparison to YHVH.


ADN the root of the above (ADNY) meaning sovereign, contoller, ruler, owner of. again used less frequently and in a more auspicious context than YHVH.

YH (yah) Jah) again sacred name of YHVH

all terms for "lord" and the word lord has been used to address jesus, solomon, david. jesus being called lord does not make him any greater than any other lord.
 
you might enjoy this:Liber QNA

AHIH which is translated as " I am" can be seen in a more enlightening context here from the text linked above;

8. But only unto the Prophet MShH, Moses, the numeration of whose name is 345, was reavealed by God His Highest Name, that is by numeration 543, the numerical Temurah of 345, which name is AHIH AShR AHIH, Ehieh Ashur Ehieh, which meaneth "Existence IS Existence" -- the NAME of the Highest GOD.
 
Ah hah, the translated word lord has been used to address these people, but it wasn't translated from YHVH (sorry about not knowing the correct spelling, I haven't used ancient greek in centuries :p ) Have a look at the original language manuscripts, there is a word that translates into lord, YHVH has been translated into Lord as well, but it denotes an Almighty Lord, not just Lord. Or so I've been told. Again I haven't studied ancient Greek yet so I'm not an authority on the subject. You might be refering to when God sarcastically says 'Sure there are many 'God's' but only one true God' Or some such statement like that? I don't know if YHVH is used in that instance, but given it's context it is easy to see that it is sarcastic not literal, there are other instances of this occurance in the Bible, perhaps they are what you are refering to? Not sure, I'd look it up but those hebrew/greek/english bibles cost $100 and I'm poor lol. I don't know the specific distinction, I am very much uneducated when it comes to Hermunetics hence why I spell things concerning them, wrongly :D I could have sworn YHVH was actually YHWH though? I don't know It's pronounced Yahweh though isn't it? Maybe that's where I'm getting confused. Anyway any help would be appreciated. If you've got the resources and you can find out for me then that'd be appreciated. I think I got my info from www.carm.org under the Jehovah Witness appologetics section. I might have to check it out again.

THanks

CyA
 
ellion that was actually pretty interesting, extremely confusing but very interesting. I have much to learn.
 
there are hebrew greek bibles on the internet you can find them at sacred-texts.com

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/tan/index.htm

if you need page numbers and chapters to refer to, to check which version of lord is being used i can point some out to you.


YHVH was actually YHWH though:

the letters Y or H or V or W are substituted for the hebrew characters becaseu most computers dont have 1:1 ‏בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
 
Have a look at the original language manuscripts, there is a word that translates into lord, YHVH has been translated into Lord as well, but it denotes an Almighty Lord, not just Lord.

i'll give you examples of each.


YHVH (YHWH, IHVH, IHWH JHVH JHWH)
the first instance of YHVH is in genesis 2:4

ADNY (ADNI)
the first instance of ADNY is in genesis 15:2

ADN
the first instance of ADN is in numbers 32:27


YH (JH, IH)
the first instance of YH is psalms 89:8
 
i didnt think really if you cannot read hebrew you will not be able to compare the old testament with the torah, therefore references are pretty useless to you. ah well may be i inspire you to find out more.
 
yeah definetely thanks for that ellion, the language refernece book I was thinking of has the original manuscript and then it translated word for word into english. So you can see what the original has been translated into. But a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is pretty essential even here. However you have actually made me dread my future studies in ancient greek and hebrew less, there's so much more that the original language shows you.
 
answers said:
Ah hah, the translated word lord has been used to address these people, but it wasn't translated from YHVH (sorry about not knowing the correct spelling, I haven't used ancient greek in centuries :p ) Have a look at the original language manuscripts, there is a word that translates into lord, YHVH has been translated into Lord as well, but it denotes an Almighty Lord, not just Lord. Or so I've been told. Again I haven't studied ancient Greek yet so I'm not an authority on the subject. You might be refering to when God sarcastically says 'Sure there are many 'God's' but only one true God' Or some such statement like that? I don't know if YHVH is used in that instance, but given it's context it is easy to see that it is sarcastic not literal, there are other instances of this occurance in the Bible, perhaps they are what you are refering to? Not sure, I'd look it up but those hebrew/greek/english bibles cost $100 and I'm poor lol. I don't know the specific distinction, I am very much uneducated when it comes to Hermunetics hence why I spell things concerning them, wrongly :D I could have sworn YHVH was actually YHWH though? I don't know It's pronounced Yahweh though isn't it? Maybe that's where I'm getting confused. Anyway any help would be appreciated. If you've got the resources and you can find out for me then that'd be appreciated. I think I got my info from www.carm.org under the Jehovah Witness appologetics section. I might have to check it out again.

*************
M*W: The term "Lord" can mean anything from a pagan idol to God. It can also mean "husband," "master of the house," "leader," or "man-in-charge." The bible, especially the new testicle, was written based on astrotheology. Therefore, "lord" specifically means a particular astrological sign. Like Thomas the Twin, it refers to the Sign of Gemini. When Thomas and Jesus are in conversation, for example, Jesus, the Sun, is in the Sign of Gemini. When doubting Thomas "touches the side of Jesus," the Sign of Gemini (or more precisely half of the sign) eclipses part of the Sun, it was written that "Thomas doubted Jesus." To cover all of the sun in an eclipse would be to "kill the sun" as at Passover, so the sun can "rise" or be "born again" on Easter Sunday. It's ALL astrological.
 
If Jesus was God , Jesus would have to be omniscient and omnipotent:

In Mark 5:25 a certain woman came behind Jesus and touched his garment, Jesus did not know and had to ask : Who touched my clothes ?
(not very omniscient)

Matt 31: 18-19 : Jesus do not know what can be found on a fig tree except leaves

John 5:30 " I can of my own do nothing "
(not very omnipotent)

John 5: 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true
(Jesus definitely did not regard himself as God)
 
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