Was Jesus God...

[one_raven]

...or simply a teacher and philosopher?

Presuming he existed, I see no reason to believe he was any more than a philosopher and teacher, not unlike the Buddha, Lao Tse, Confucius, Nietzsche or J. Krishnamurti.

I am not even going to bring the concept of the Trinity into this (not just yet anyway), I am just going to ask a presumably simple question.

Why do people think Jesus is God?

I have searched the New Testament for anything that Jesus said (searched dilligently, I believe) to make people think such, but can't find it.
I have asked quite a few people (believers and otherwise) to point out to me where he said he is God, in case I missed it, but with no luck so far.
I believe I have even asked it on this forum way back.

He does say he is the Son of God, just as he says we are all children of God.
In fact, it seems to me that he went out of his way to point out that he is no more special than any of us.
The only apparent exceptions between us and him is his goodness, which is attainable, and his knowledge, which was his goal to share.

One thing that a few people have pointed out as evidence that he is God is that he says he is the way or path to God, his father or heaven.
Not only does that blantanly say (as far as I can see) that he is not God, rather he is speaking of someone in the third person, but I see it as him saying that you can find your way to heaven via him, or his teachings.
When he says he is the way to Heaven, he is saying it as a teacher. "My words are your path to Heaven, where my father, God, sits."

Do you agree?
If not, please explain to me why you think Jesus IS God, rather than simply one of countless "children of God", albeit perhaps an exceptional one.
Please quote chapter and verse to me to back up what you say.
You can be of the opinion of anything (and I am not trying to discount that).
If you believe that Jesus was a faery, all power to you, and I will not tell you that you are wrong.
If you say, however, that Jesus was a faery and the Bible supports your assertion, I will expect you to back that up with chapter and verse.
What I am interested in (in this thread, at least) is where the Bible (more specifically Jesus' words) state that he is God.

Thanks.

 

[(Q)]

If he existed, Jesus was simply bi-polar. He walked around talking to the voices in his head.

 

[Trilairian]

...or simply a teacher and philosopher?

Wheres the none of the above option?

 

[c7ityi_]

I have searched the New Testament for anything that Jesus said (searched dilligently, I believe) to make people think such, but can't find it.

are u stupid or somethin? jesus said: "i am my father are one."

If not, please explain to me why you think Jesus IS God, rather than simply one of countless "children of God", albeit perhaps an exceptional one.

christ represents the omnipresent self. there is only one self, one god, one son, in many bodies.

If he existed, Jesus was simply bi-polar. He walked around talking to the voices in his head.

but all humans are bipolar. a human consists of the body, person and higher self.

voice of the body/person is the voice of satan.
voice of the higher self is the voice of god.

satan says: lie. serve me, the body.
god says: don't lie. don't do wrong.

 

[Paraclete]

He does say he is the Son of God, just as he says we are all children of God.
In fact, it seems to me that he went out of his way to point out that he is no more special than any of us.

Hi one Raven !!!

You are actually correct in most of your statements , Jesus is quoting the psalms when he says he is the son of God - like all israelis are sons of God.

For instance in John 10:31 -36 : Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law: I SAID,YE ARE GODS ............thou blasphemest because I said I
am son of God.

Jesus is quoting : psalm 82:6 :
" I have said , ye are Gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High."

Actually Jesus never claims himself as being more son of God than any other
jew ...............

it is interesting to notice, that all the israelites were mentioned as sons of God : Exodus 4:22 : son of god (My son ) , Isa 45:11 and Hos 1:10 sons of God (My sons) ,

The designation SON OF GOD was applicable to every Israelitish king :
psalm 2: 7 : Thou art My son, this day I have begotten thee
(psalm 2 is a part of the liturgy of the coronation rites for kings)

So you are absolutely right - Jesus NEVER claimed to be a divine son of God ............

 

[(Q)]

but all humans are bipolar.

"Manic-depression distorts moods and thoughts, incites dreadful behaviors, destroys the basis of rational thought, and too often erodes the desire and will to live. It is an illness that is biological in its origins, yet one that feels psychological in the experience of it; an illness that is unique in conferring advantage and pleasure, yet one that brings in its wake almost unendurable suffering and, not infrequently, suicide."

"I am fortunate that I have not died from my illness, fortunate in having received the best medical care available, and fortunate in having the friends, colleagues, and family that I do."

~~Kay Redfield Jamison, Ph.D., An Unquiet Mind, 1995.

Note how the above supports your worldview and not mine.

 

[Paraclete]

The only apparent exceptions between us and him is his goodness, which is attainable

One Raven - Jesus (who was a very humble person) would have answered your statement with this :

Matt 19:17 , Mark 10:18 , Luke 18:19 :
Why callest thou ME good ? There is none good but ONE , that is God.

Jesus clearly did NOT think about himself as being God..........

Please notice that Jesus thinks of God as ONE - not a trinity .....

 

[Paraclete]

One Raven - just to spell it out so everyone can understand it : Jesus said :

John 8: 40 : But now ye seek to kill me , a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God ......

Jesus regarded himself as a man - NOT as a divine beeing ......

Please notice that Jesus heard the truth from God - NOT from himself .....

 

[Paraclete]

One Raven !!

There are other passages stating that the SON is NOT God :

Mark 13:32 : But that day and that hour (the day of judgement) knoweth no man ,
no not the angels which are in heaven , NEITHER THE SON , but the father (God)

 

[Archie]

Probably the most open declaration Jesus made of his Divinity was in John's Gospel, chapter 8, verses 31 to the end of the chapter, verse 59. Verse 58 is where He claims to be God; "Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus is saying two things at once; He is claiming to be older than Abraham - and thereby superior, by the way - and He is using the word "I am", which was the sacred name of God. It was this same phrase used by God to have Moses identify Him to the nation of Israel, "Tell Pharoah I AM has sent you." Exodus 3:14)

The Jewish leaders understood Jesus claim, in verse 59 they picked up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy. They were unable to do so.

In Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42 Jesus uses a reference from the Psalms in regard to Himself. The psalm is discussing God. Jesus is assuming the role of God in so doing.

In John 10:30 Jesus says "The Father and I are one". This is more than a catch phrase signifying 'solidarity'. The Greek phrase e{n ejsmen ({en esmen) is a significant assertion with trinitarian implications. e{n is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one 'thing.' Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted, but essential unity (unity of essence). (NetBible)

John 17:21 Jesus is praying, and uses much the same language. Clearly Jesus is speaking to God as an 'equal'; the usage implies a unity of being more than intent or interest.

One Raven, you posted

I have searched the New Testament for anything that Jesus said (searched dilligently, I believe) to make people think such, but can't find it.

Either you haven't searched much at all, or you don't want to see it. Most people don't want to see it; it's too dangerous to their lifestyle. I sympathise; if you admit Jesus is God, you will have to alter your entire life and goal process. That's a pretty scary prospect.

 

[(Q)]

Most people don't want to see it; it's too dangerous to their lifestyle. I sympathise; if you admit Jesus is God, you will have to alter your entire life and goal process. That's a pretty scary prospect.

Would admitting there are no gods alter ones goals in life? Is that also a scary prospect?

 

[c7ityi_]

bipolar magnets.

It is an illness that is biological in its origins,

all diseases have their causes in the mind.

"I am fortunate that I have not died from my illness, fortunate in having received the best medical care available, and fortunate in having the friends, colleagues, and family that I do."

unfortunately, he didn't have the most important: 'god', ie. himself. if he had, he would have realized that he never had an illness.

 

[spidergoat]

The early Roman Christian bishops found the idea of Jesus' exclusive divinity appealing, as it implied a religious hierarchy. Any other interpretation would rob them of this political power. Also, anyone who believed different was persecuted, so this is the idea that persisted.

 

[ellion]

there is a verse in revelation, revelation being a received work. recieved by john from the angel (ghost/sprirt) of jesus. any way the verse goes something like:

i havent got a bible at hand and i am too lazy to google the verse so i will paraphrase form what i can remember of it.

anyway something like:

"and i fell down at his feet to worship him and he said unto me see thou do it not i am of thy brethren the servants and the prophets worship god"

 

[davewhite04]

...or simply a teacher and philosopher?

Presuming he existed, I see no reason to believe he was any more than a philosopher and teacher, not unlike the Buddha, Lao Tse, Confucius, Nietzsche or J. Krishnamurti.

Can you prove Buddha existed?

 

[duendy]

...or simply a teacher and philosopher?

me)))))))Thing is , that belief is CENTRAL to CHristianity!

Presuming he existed, I see no reason to believe he was any more than a philosopher and teacher, not unlike the Buddha, Lao Tse, Confucius, Nietzsche or J. Krishnamurti.

I am not even going to bring the concept of the Trinity into this (not just yet anyway), I am just going to ask a presumably simple question.

Why do people think Jesus is God?

me))))))))through patriarchal mythological indoctrination! Literalist.

I have searched the New Testament for anything that Jesus said (searched dilligently, I believe) to make people think such, but can't find it.
I have asked quite a few people (believers and otherwise) to point out to me where he said he is God, in case I missed it, but with no luck so far.
I believe I have even asked it on this forum way back.

me))))))can't think if he did. but most important thing is this: this idea is central to that faith. if any Christians here disagree i'll be interested to listen

He does say he is the Son of God, just as he says we are all children of God.
In fact, it seems to me that he went out of his way to point out that he is no more special than any of us.
The only apparent exceptions between us and him is his goodness, which is attainable, and his knowledge, which was his goal to share.

me))notice the myth--whether you believe he's son ood or not, as him mention his 'Father'--ie specifically 'God' isreferred to as a 'HE'!

One thing that a few people have pointed out as evidence that he is God is that he says he is the way or path to God, his father or heaven.
Not only does that blantanly say (as far as I can see) that he is not God, rather he is speaking of someone in the third person, but I see it as him saying that you can find your way to heaven via him, or his teachings.

me))the MAIN point is isto recognize tis is a patriarchal myth which has appropriated a pagan mythos of a 'god-man', son of the Goddess, and thus intimately related to Nature, and common people, and turning him into one apaert from Nature. away to a 'heaven'. there are reasons for this. control!

When he says he is the way to Heaven, he is saying it as a teacher. "My words are your path to Heaven, where my father, God, sits."

Do you agree?
If not, please explain to me why you think Jesus IS God, rather than simply one of countless "children of God", albeit perhaps an exceptional one.
Please quote chapter and verse to me to back up what you say.
You can be of the opinion of anything (and I am not trying to discount that).
If you believe that Jesus was a faery, all power to you, and I will not tell you that you are wrong.
If you say, however, that Jesus was a faery and the Bible supports your assertion, I will expect you to back that up with chapter and verse.
What I am interested in (in this thread, at least) is where the Bible (more specifically Jesus' words) state that he is God.

me))))i dig your wanting to know that specifically. but i pewrsonally am more interested in its manipulation. to me it's beside the point whether he is 'son oof GOd = God or just plain old son of God like wees supposed to be according to that myth. MAIN vital point is its dissocative indoctrination. abstracting the sacred OUT of Nature.
Thanks.

and according to J.M Allegro, 'Christos' is secretly etymologically referring to the 'flesh of God'--a sacred mushroom!

To understand how tis belief came about it'smhandy to research the ransition from the belief in the womb of the Goddess to the semen of the God. When patriarchs believe woman is mere recptacle for male's 'superior' sperm, then they anthropomorphize 'GOd's sperm' as being more powerful in certain vegetation. So for example 'virgin born' would mean mushrooms that were believed to mysteriously appear without terrestrial seed. ie., they didn't have microscopes and didn't know of spores!
Hence psychedelic mushrooms were believed to be th Son of God---but 'overtly'--when mentioned in connection wit Indigenous peoples who of course used tem and understood the MUCH differently than the patriarchs, rthey're refered to as 'fallen angels'

 

[spidergoat]

Also, in those days, the phrase "son of" meant, "of the same nature as".

 

[one_raven]

Paraclete,
Thanks for all the information!!

Can you prove Buddha existed?

I don't understand what that has to do with this discussion at all.

Probably the most open declaration Jesus made of his Divinity was in John's Gospel, chapter 8, verses 31 to the end of the chapter, verse 59. Verse 58 is where He claims to be God; "Before Abraham was, I am."

Jesus is saying two things at once; He is claiming to be older than Abraham - and thereby superior, by the way - and He is using the word "I am", which was the sacred name of God. It was this same phrase used by God to have Moses identify Him to the nation of Israel, "Tell Pharoah I AM has sent you." Exodus 3:14)

Throughout that entire chapter he continually refers to God in the third person.
He blatantly says, for example:
50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.
and:
54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

He wasn't claiming to be God in the verse you pointed out, he was claiming to be the propesied messiah. He claims Abraham rejoiced over the day he would come.

The Jewish leaders understood Jesus claim, in verse 59 they picked up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy. They were unable to do so.

They understood that he claimed to be teh messiah, which is blasphemy.
They couldn;t do it because he ran away from them.
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

It WAS blaspehmy, but not because he was claiming to be God.

In Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42 Jesus uses a reference from the Psalms in regard to Himself. The psalm is discussing God. Jesus is assuming the role of God in so doing.

In referring to Psalm 110 in the "Whose son is the Christ" parable Jesus is referring to the Messiah being the Son of God, rather than the son of Man (or David), not God himself.
In Psalm 110, do you think that God was speaking to himself?
No, he was speaking to his Son.

In John 10:30 Jesus says "The Father and I are one". This is more than a catch phrase signifying 'solidarity'. The Greek phrase e{n ejsmen ({en esmen) is a significant assertion with trinitarian implications. e{n is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one 'thing.' Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted, but essential unity (unity of essence). (NetBible)

Now in context...
22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

He is referring to his deeds, his works and his miracles. This is why it was written in the neuter case, because he WASN'T saying he and God are one person. He is not God, he is the messiah, who is doing God's work on earth.

John 17:21 Jesus is praying, and uses much the same language. Clearly Jesus is speaking to God as an 'equal'; the usage implies a unity of being more than intent or interest.

Same situation as above.

Either you haven't searched much at all, or you don't want to see it.

Do you think it is at all possible that perhaps you see it because you DO want to?

Most people don't want to see it; it's too dangerous to their lifestyle. I sympathise; if you admit Jesus is God, you will have to alter your entire life and goal process. That's a pretty scary prospect.

Please don't presume to make such far-reaching assumptions about me, who I am and what I do or do not believe.
Whether or not the Bible supports the common Christian claim that Jesus is God would not have even the slighted effect on my life and how I live it. I, as opposed to someone reading the Bible with pre-conceived notions and a specific agenda, am simply looking for truth. Whether or not Jesus was God, whther or not Jesus ever existed, whether or not God ever existed, means nothing to me, other than a curiosity.

This debate is not about me, it is about the Bible. I would appreciate it if you left it as such.

are u stupid or somethin?

Fuck off.

 

[c7ityi_]

Fuck off.

dont take it so seriously i was kidding you know.

 

[one_raven]

dont take it so seriously i was kidding you know.

Do you have anything to say about all I just posted.
I did respond to the "i am my father are one." quote.