Vegetarians barred from adopting

[chimpkin]

Skeptical said:
Getting all your nutritional requirements as a vegan is not easy.

To subsist on a vegan diet (no animal tissue at all) is very difficult.

I would agree for people who don't have the kind of resources that I have even as a relatively poor person in a first-world country...

But I just don't feel like it's a lot of work to me.

At first? yes, but my mom didn't cook anything that didn't come out of a box, then dump a ton of margarine and/or sugar and/or salt in it. So learning how to cook real food, and enjoy it, was a challenge. Lots of burned beans and splitpeas for dinner (soy sauce can sometimes salvage scorched beans BTW...)

I did go vegan as an adult...I do think small/midsize children and people who have trouble keeping on weight may need more calorically-dense foods than I personally do.
(and thank goodness my metabolism's getting better...)

And I certainly think you ought to eat that which makes you healthy, whatever that happens to be...and finding your personal optimum diet takes care and experimentation for anyone.

 

[Skeptical]

Chimpkin

If you choose to go vegan, that is your choice, and it is your right to do so without interferance.

However, I bet that, if the proper tests were done, you would be found to be, at least a little bit, deficient in some key nutrients, such as iron, zinc, calcium or vitamin B12. Unless, of course, you took supplement pills for these materials.

Getting minimum full amino acid protein, or enough calories, in your diet is not too difficult. It is those special nutrients that are the problem.

My point is that, before anyone makes the dietary choice you did, they should be fully aware of the pitfalls.

 

[chimpkin]

Unless, of course, you took supplement pills for these materials.

I take a good vegetarian one-a-day. Since the water-soluble vitamins are impossible to OD on anyway, it's not a bad idea for anybody to take a one-a-day. Soils are depleted of important nutrients-minerals, and the food in supermarkets has had a chance to degrade-the vitamins break down while the produce is sitting around in transit or on the store shelves...

So you may not be getting them in your diet. A broad spectrum daily's like insurance.

Basically, what you don't need of the water-solubles, you pee out.
The fat-solubles you *can OD on, so you have to not megadose them...and the minerals...it is possible to get too much iron, that much I know. I take extra zinc, calcium, and magnesium as well.

All bases covered.

As I said, I have the resources to do this. Besides that, I accidentally ate dairy in some undefinable glop at an indian buffet in '03...and I can't eat it anymore...as I found out by barely making it home to the toilet. I'm weaned.

 

[Skeptical]

Another point relates to menstruating women. They lose iron every month, and need to consume quite a bit of extra iron to avoid anemia. Not such a problem for us guys.

I read somewhere that 100,000 women die every year in developing countries during childbirth, due to the fact that they are weak from anemia due to their poor diet.

The best source of easily assimilated iron is red meat, followed by poultry. Iron pills are a substitute, but I prefer meat.

 

[chimpkin]

Roughly two cups of soybeans, two and one-half cups of lentils would provide enough iron for a menstruating female. In addition, green leafy vegetables provide some iron as well.

But quite frankly, I think if you educated women and empowered them to make their own decisions and money, as well as controlling their reproductive lives... that problem would take care of itself.

Yes it's natural to eat a little meat. Also natural to eat insects, which I understand taste very good roasted. The insect's a very assimilatable source of protein, as is the egg.

It's far from natural to eat corn-fed, hormone-and-antibiotic laden feedlot beef daily, much less McDonald's. We in first world countries, for the most part, can't really be said to eat a natural diet in any sense of the word. Most of us aren't growing it, aren't raising it, aren't hunting it. It's the ease of getting it, I think, that causes our problems. I'm in the process of expanding a raised-bed garden. This is hard work.

Southeast Asia has a fine tradition of cooking and eating their crop pests. This tourist blog post relates finding a rat stand and a fried insect vendor: http://fullcircletrek.com/daily-blog/rat-stirfry-insects-and-other-delicacies/

 

[Skeptical]

Chimpkin

I think the iron problem is a little more difficult than you present it. Certainly, lots of vegan women present with anemia.

On meat. Modern corn fed meat has the problem of having more saturated fat than is truly healthy. I agree on that.

However, the antibiotic and hormone content is irrelevent. First because it is nowhere nearly as elevated as radical foodists try to make out. The animal's normal homeostasis mechanisms destroy most of both. Second because we digest the stuff, and turn it into harmless materials.

I have certainly seen no credible scientific studies to indicate harm from that part of the meat, though I have seen an awful lot of material from radicals who have little respect for science, telling such alarmist stories.

 

[chimpkin]

I was going to write a long post...but I really don't feel like arguing. You're going to see things your way, I'm going to see them mine... people in Thailand are still going to eat stir-fried rice rats...

I'm under the impression that maternal anemia in the third world is caused as much by lack of access to good food and an over-reliance on wheat, rice or manioc as the primary foodsource... or simply having no food at all.
Which, if women had access to education, family planning and ability to make their own money, they would end up eating a broader, more complete diet.

Which would likely have chicken and guinea fowl in it in it-most developing countries' people raise those as pest control as well as food. :shrug: Not my choice currently, but I can see the practicality of it. I've thought of keeping a few chickens for eggs and pest control myself.

My bloodwork's always come back okay, but again, first-world, varied diet, access to supplements, lots of legumes.

 

[Skeptical]

Chimpkin

You are correct in saying that third world maternal anemia is due to poverty, and the lousy diet that comes from poverty. Educating and empowering those women would be an excellent thing, but as long as those countries have corrupt governments, it is not going to solve the poverty problem.

I am glad your blood tests are good. I am personally a big meat eater (possibly too much so?). I am also a regular blood donor, and they love my juices, since they are always extra high in hemoglobin. I suspect that giving blood regularly helps my state of health.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Lots of burned beans and splitpeas for dinner (soy sauce can sometimes salvage scorched beans BTW...)

Burned food is very unhealthy for you and a little soy sauce might contain two days' ration of sodium. You have to be careful not to let your aversion to meat (the perfect food our ancestors spent millions of years adapting their metabolism to so their descendants wouldn't have to eat no more stinkin' yucky vegetables!) guide you into ingesting things that aren't good for you.

And I certainly think you ought to eat that which makes you healthy . . . .

A rather twisted perspective on life. What ever happened to "that which makes you happy?" The purpose of life is not merely to prolong itself!

You can give up meat, booze and TV, get up early and jog to work. It may not make your life any longer, but it will sure as hell feel like it!

. . . . finding your personal optimum diet takes care and experimentation for anyone.

With my mother's help, I found mine in 1949 when I was six years old. Lots of meat and chocolate! I'm in better health than many people my age, and compared to many of the younger people I meet I'm the next Jack LaLanne. But if I die tomorrow at least I'll die happy. Food is one of life's greatest pleasures, and I have spent very little of mine gagging on a zucchini casserole or a wretched mouthful of tofu.

Roughly two cups of soybeans, two and one-half cups of lentils would provide enough iron for a menstruating female. In addition, green leafy vegetables provide some iron as well.

Yeah, that sounds like quite an enjoyable menu... for a steer.

But quite frankly, I think if you educated women and empowered them to make their own decisions and money, as well as controlling their reproductive lives... that problem would take care of itself.

Support the Central Asia Institute. They build schools in the backwaters of the Middle East, with only one requirement: they must admit girls. For many years they were our only charity.

We in first world countries, for the most part, can't really be said to eat a natural diet in any sense of the word. Most of us aren't growing it, aren't raising it, aren't hunting it. It's the ease of getting it, I think, that causes our problems.

Did you miss the memo announcing the success of the Industrial Revolution? Do you also want to make your own clothes, thatch your own roof, and shovel your own coal? Would you really rather live in any century prior to the twentieth, when 99% or more of the population were doomed to "careers in the food production and distribution industry"? Working 80-100 hour weeks with virtually no discretionary income or leisure time? Or like all people who yearn for the "good old days" do you imagine that you'd be a member of the extremely tiny middle class, able to read and write and working in a shop or a government office?

The essence of civilization is division of labor and economy of scale. The essence of the Industrial Era is turning drudge work over to machines so we can do "knowledge work." The essence of the Post-Industrial Era is the spread of mechanization, automation, the internet, literacy and democracy to every family, so nobody has to live like a Neolithic villager and grow their own damn food any more!

 

[chimpkin]

I used to burn beans...then I found that a crockpot is the perfect answer to an ADD-symptom-ridden person's cooking dilemmas...turn on, add correct amount of water, forget for 8 hours...

But yeah, I had to cut out the soy sauce a few years ago. I have to really watch my salt intake in the winter months...once the temps climb to over 90 degrees Fahrenheit, not as much.
I have been known to sweat off five pounds in an hour's hard workout.

I'm learning how to grow my own vegetables, and enjoying it. Veggies picked ten minutes ago beat anything out of the supermarket.
I dunno why you don't like tofu...for me that's a treat, it's kinda expensive, and not very good unless fussed over. Tofu spring rolls...mmmm

Zucchini's okay-I actually prefer chayote squashes or baked winter squashes with a little stevia and cinnamon on them.

I do agree with you on chocolate, though. Nectar of the gods and all that.

To reiterate what I said a while ago in another thread, my granny ate what made her happy-a lot of junk, so she died early and very hard. I got to watch.

That's why I eat what will make me healthy.
And TV always annoyed me anyway, really it did. I don't miss it.

 

[Skeptical]

Chimpkin

We are all different. What I enjoy, what you enjoy, and what Fraggle enjoys may be all different. I agree with Fraggle that tofu is awful, but if you like it, good luck to you.

I do tend, though, to tell everyone that extremism is not a good thing. This includes extremism in diet. I regard veganism to be a form of extremism, and I really think that adding a little low fat milk (best source of calcium), and a few eggs to your diet is a major improvement.

I eat a full omnivore diet. Meat, poultry or fish every day. Eggs, low fat milk also every day. Lots of raw fruit and cooked veges every day also. My blood pressure measured two weeks ago was 140 over 75. My cholesterol is better than the average 20 year old (I am 62), and my resting pulse is 60.

I think the human body evolved as an omnivore, and to break away from that into full veganism is not healthy. I have a niece who is vegan, and she weighs as much as two women her age should weigh. Veganism is not a short cut to weight loss. In fact, a high protein diet appears to be better for that purpose. Such a diet is best achieved with animal protein. Hard boiled eggs, for example, have about the highest satiety to low calorie index.

 

[quadraphonics]

I think the human body evolved as an omnivore, and to break away from that into full veganism is not healthy.

I can't say I've ever met anyone who went vegan for health reasons. It's invariably to do with arguments about food morality. And while militant vegans tend to insist that there are no health penalties (all the better to insist on the evils of eating animal products), that doesn't seem to play out in practice. All the vegans I've known have accepted, more or less openly, that it would harm their health. They've just considered the moral question of animal products to be more important than that.

Although, most of the vegans I know eventually went back to eating meat after they got fed up with being sickly and unable to keep up in sports.

I have a niece who is vegan, and she weighs as much as two women her age should weigh. Veganism is not a short cut to weight loss.

True enough - and the sorts of diets most vegans eat would actually be unhelpful for weight loss since it consists of massive doses of complex carbs for every meal. But most vegans I've known have shown noticeable weight loss after a year or so - but not in a healthy way. They weren't overweight to start with, and ended up with sunken eyes and hollow cheeks.

It's a bit unfair, though, in that most vegans seem to be in the college age group, and so not really even eating well or exhibiting good nutritional practices to begin with. Then you whittle their diet down to nothing but pasta and they get unhealthy fast.

 

[chimpkin]

Oh, well, you can't just eat lots of potato chips and ramen noodles and expect to be healthy.:shrug:

All the vegans I've known have accepted, more or less openly, that it would harm their health. They've just considered the moral question of animal products to be more important than that.

Odd, that...like I said, my asthma's gotten better, my weight's under better control.

I do have the sinusitis...but I think I picked that up from the black mold in my old apartment, combined with where I was working(downwind of a metal galvanizer).

 

[Anarcho Union]

A vegetarian couple on the Greek island of Crete have been barred from adopting a child because of doubts about their diet, a local social welfare official said.

The decision was taken because the would-be adoptive parents, who have gone to court to overturn it, eat no meat or fish and officials feared this regimen would be applied to the child as well.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161113.htm

Someone please tell me I missing something about the Greek agricultural industry ....

Wow. Just wow. Anyone hear the faint sounds of green paper being slid into the pockets of Greek authorty figures?

 

[quadraphonics]

Odd, that...like I said, my asthma's gotten better, my weight's under better control.

Big question is what becomes of your immune health. Also if you were overweight to begin with, the weight loss will be appreciated at first - but in the long run you may end up underweight if you aren't very careful about eating a balanced diet. Not saying that it can't be done, just that it's rather difficult (especially if you live in a meat- and cheese-eating society) to sustain in the long run.

 

[Skeptical]

I seriously doubt that Chimpkin's asthma getting better has anything to do with change of diet. There are a number of factors known to improve asthma. One is simple maturity. When we get older, asthma gets better.

 

[chimpkin]

Also if you were overweight to begin with, the weight loss will be appreciated at first - but in the long run you may end up underweight if you aren't very careful about eating a balanced diet.

I think I'd have to be physically restrained or given serious drugs to become medically underweight! I can put on lard like nobody's business.

Going vegan was a *temporary* fix, and does seem to keep me from gaining *as* easily as I used to....I went vegetarian in '94, vegan in 2000...and when I slacked off working out, I put on a lot of weight. I took off 120 some-odd pounds in 2009-2010...my allergist suggested stomach stapling, and, well that seemed a bit illogical to do before trying to lose it without surgery, right?

Last night I was tempted into eating several muffins, and the sugar set off a binge.
When I got on the scales this morning I was literally seven pounds heavier than 24 hours ago. :bawl: This is why I want to quit refined sugar, white flour, and fried food. Binge triggers, all.

When I was quitting dairy, I tried an experiment. I hadn't eaten any dairy in about two weeks, so I bought a big tub of yogurt and inhaled it. Proceeded to have an asthma attack.
Casein thickens mucus, therefore making asthma worse.

My asthma got better at 16-that was the maturity "bump" occurring...I didn't go vegan until I was about 27, at which time I experienced further improvement...BUT, it may not have been so much diet-related on the whole as it was weight-loss related. In other words, it wasn't that I was consuming no meat or dairy, it's that this facilitated less calorie intake overall, and I was bicycling a lot. So I lost a lot of weight, and it appears that it's the weight loss itself that makes the asthma better.

 

[Pandaemoni]

Last night I was tempted into eating several muffins, and the sugar set off a binge.
When I got on the scales this morning I was literally seven pounds heavier than 24 hours ago. :bawl: This is why I want to quit refined sugar, white flour, and fried food. Binge triggers, all.

How big were those muffins? I suspect your bathroom scale may not be super accurate (most aren't), since you would have to eat more than 7 pounds of food to gain 7 pounds, and take in a net 24,500 Calories more than you burned off to retain it. Since I doubt you ate a week and a half's worth of food in one day...

I'm thinking some of the 7 pound gain was the weight of the still to be excreted roughage and some was error on the scale in one or both of the readings.

That doesn't make your plan to get off refined sugar and fried foods a bad one, of course.

 

[chimpkin]

Well...the muffins were ordinary-sized...FOUR of them though...but they were just sort of the starting gun...once I ate those muffins...there were black bean tacos and oven-fried potatoes and chips and some more black beans and bread and ketchup sammiches and all the reamaining apples in the house and all the remaining unsweetened baker's chocolate, and half an orange, and several corn tortillas with honey on them and a raw beet...


I do note I was in physical pain from eating all that food.

Binge Eating Disorder, I don't necessarily have fully anymore...but it doesn't take much to set me off.

Gods, that's embarrassing to admit...I'm going to go delete my pictures now.

 

[birch]

one would be a lot healthier if they ate more fruits and vegetables, not carbs.