Vegetarian/Nonviolence/Kosher ethics

[lightgigantic]

Check out the 5 minute video on http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/

Apparently kosher meat is supposed to be humane

Frankly I am amazed that people who vouch for the ethics of non violence and peace can remain neutral when it comes to their choice of diet.

Do you think a person who eats non-vegetarian foods is implicated in what goes down in the name of "humane" animal slaughter. Is "humane animal slaughter" a misnomer?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

"Do you think a person who eats non-vegetarian foods is implicated in what goes down in the name of "humane" animal slaughter. Is "humane animal slaughter" a misnomer? "

From what I understand Hitler was a vegetarian. He didn't enjoy eating furry animals but he sure enjoyed engineering the slaughter of the human animal. Being a vegetarian doesn't imply 'non-violence'. I prefer a good kosher chicken, slit throat and all observerd by a rabbi in a nice clean kitchen than a psychotic vegetarian spilling the blood of millions. What difference does it make anyway? Twisting of the neck, bashing it with a hammer, thrusting a knife through its center. What would you consider a humane way of killing a foul? Sleeping pills? Anyway we all have to eat.

 

[lightgigantic]

"Do you think a person who eats non-vegetarian foods is implicated in what goes down in the name of "humane" animal slaughter. Is "humane animal slaughter" a misnomer? "

From what I understand Hitler was a vegetarian. He didn't enjoy eating furry animals but he sure enjoyed engineering the slaughter of the human animal. Being a vegetarian doesn't imply 'non-violence'. I prefer a good kosher chicken, slit throat and all observerd by a rabbi in a nice clean kitchen than a psychotic vegetarian spilling the blood of millions. What difference does it make anyway? Twisting of the neck, bashing it with a hammer, thrusting a knife through its center. What would you consider a humane way of killing a foul? Sleeping pills? Anyway we all have to eat.

If you see something intrinsically wrong with aldolph hitler's vegetarian/jewish outlook why don't you also see the same thing wrong with furry animals/meat eating? (On a side point aldolph hitler was vegetarian because he saw the health benefits - for humans of course - of vegetarians rather than reasons of compassion for animals).

If you have reservations about a psychotic vegetarian killing millions why don't you have reservations about a psychotic rabbi killing millions ? (Watch the linked footage - it catches a rabbi at a kosher plant absent mindedly kicking the same blood into the face of a cow who that is struggling as its life is slowly draining away).

Yes we all have to eat, but the question is "why animals?" Do you live in Alaska or somewhere so remote you can't access vegetables and grains?
Then to take it a step further one can ask why does our demands for meat have to be so excesive that animals are virtually crippled from birth - for instance in the "natural" life of a poultry chicken the only moment that they will ever be able to outstretch even ONE of their wings is when they get removed from their cage and taken to a slaughterhouse (provided of course they survive the journey there). Many chickens and pigs have broken legs literally because they are pumped full of so many growth hormones that their legs literally break under their weight.

As for the difference between the method of slaughter I am sure that the animals notice the difference - particularly the ones that weren't properly harnessed to the conveyor belt that drags them over a device to slit their throat and are still conscious when they get blasted with steam to peel off their skin.

 

[TW Scott]

Here's the upshot a fellow human's life itself is worth something to society. What is the worth of a chicken? Either the eggs it produces or the meat it has. Now you are allowed your own individual moral view, but that and quarter will get you a gumball. That you as an individual question the morality of the situation does not the how society has and will see this particular point.

As for Hitler the man was a moron and a tool. That he thought vegetarian diet was somehow more healthful does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[lightgigantic]

Here's the upshot a fellow human's life itself is worth something to society. What is the worth of a chicken? Either the eggs it produces or the meat it has. Now you are allowed your own individual moral view, but that and quarter will get you a gumball. That you as an individual question the morality of the situation does not the how society has and will see this particular point.

As for Hitler the man was a moron and a tool. That he thought vegetarian diet was somehow more healthful does not surprise me in the slightest.

Vegetarianism is not more suitable for humans?
I am surprised someone could say that on a science forum - the first thing a doctor will tell you if you get bowel cancer is to give up meat, for the same reasons he would probably tell a smoker with lung cancer to abstain from smoking(or perhaps he would say do what ever you want since its too far gone).

Call me a fool but the presence of sweat pores (ever wondered why a dog pants?), the absence of claws and canine teeth, the presence of a mandible jaw that can grind things (as opposed to simply hinging up and down), weaker stomach acid (not suitable for digesting the complex proteins of meat), and a longer intestine (explains why even humans who eat meat don't eat carrion like every other carnivorous creature on the planet - makes us particularly susceptable to bacteria than carrion eaters) seems to spell it out pretty clearly to me.

What is the worth of a chicken? Perhaps the worth of a jew in Hitler's view. Dietry habits aside, you might have more in common with Hitler than you think.....

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Lightgigantic: I think you misunderstand me. I was simply pointing out that being a vegetarian doesn't necessarily imply non-violence or is an indication of ones humanity which is why I used Hitler's vegetarianism as an illustration. I do not have any problem with meat eaters or eating flesh myself though I don't do so daily. I would prefer a free range chicken than a Purdue chicken filled with hormones I don't think it is morally wrong to eat flesh from the land, sea or air. You use the word 'humane' as a reference to how an animal is killed for consumption, well there is no 'nice' way to kill only a quick way.

...And no I do not consider myself inhumane based on these views. I care more about suffering humans than suffering animals. Sorry species bias

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Hey what about grasshoppers, spiders and ants? In Cambodia they fry them up and eat them. Does your concern stretch towards insects? How about snakes?

I have only tried the grasshoppers. They're crunchy and taste like barbecue potato chips and are high in protien.

I understand if you do not enjoy or agree with eating meat but are you trying to convert? Its funny, vegetarians like to convert but never cannibals. Joking joking!

On a serious note considering the number of people who go hungry around the world it doesnt bother me what people eat as long as they CAN eat. You are lucky, you have a choice, many do not.

I refuse to eat Perch fish from Victoria Lake on political grounds (check out Darwins Nightmare a german documentary on the fish industry in Tanzania
http://www.1001productions.net/LM/DAR/Darwin1.html)

But I don't make decisions on what I eat based on how an animal was killed, raised yes but not killed. Killing is a messy business no matter how you go about doing it. When the head of a chicken has been twisted and cut off it runs wild for a while but that is a reflex not an indication of 'consciousness'.

If you read the link I posted consider this; Western society eats fish they themselves harvested from Lake Victoria even though the particular species is killing the lake. Lake Victoria is the size of Ireland, feeds the nile and because of the introduced Nile Perch will eventually dry up into huge basin. Locals cannot 'poach' from their own lake and are given by various 'aid' agencies your vegetarian grain in exchange and yet they starve (2 million go without food in Tanzania). I say LET THEM EAT FISH!!!!

By comparison I think your concern for the poor suffering cows self-indulgent and politically immature. Who gives a fuck about the treatment of cows when we treat our own species like shit?

 

[TW Scott]

Vegetarianism is not more suitable for humans?
I am surprised someone could say that on a science forum - the first thing a doctor will tell you if you get bowel cancer is to give up meat, for the same reasons he would probably tell a smoker with lung cancer to abstain from smoking(or perhaps he would say do what ever you want since its too far gone).

Well actually the first thing a doctor will tell you if you get bowel cancer is you got bowel cancer. Sure meat makes it rougher to treat, but again I am sure a vegetarian diet does not really help. Just less hindersome in this case. Of course you wouldn't be in this predicament if you didn't have other risk factors or ate a more balanced diet.

Call me a fool but the presence of sweat pores (ever wondered why a dog pants?), the absence of claws and canine teeth, the presence of a mandible jaw that can grind things (as opposed to simply hinging up and down), weaker stomach acid (not suitable for digesting the complex proteins of meat), and a longer intestine (explains why even humans who eat meat don't eat carrion like every other carnivorous creature on the planet - makes us particularly susceptable to bacteria than carrion eaters) seems to spell it out pretty clearly to me.

Hmmm, seems to remeber canine teeth being in the human mouth, as well as the same acid content of 99% of all omnivores, longer intestines to handle the flora needed to handle animal matter our stomach acid is not suited to properly handle. Then again I actually attended my biology, physiology and anotomy classes.

What is the worth of a chicken? Perhaps the worth of a jew in Hitler's view. Dietry habits aside, you might have more in common with Hitler than you think.....

Yeah, I am part Austrian. My grandfather was a paperhanger. Though I suspect you hold more in common with him, as a demagogue. Though u am sure you are also vastly different. At least I hope so.

 

[lightgigantic]

Lightgigantic: I think you misunderstand me. I was simply pointing out that being a vegetarian doesn't necessarily imply non-violence or is an indication of ones humanity which is why I used Hitler's vegetarianism as an illustration. I do not have any problem with meat eaters or eating flesh myself though I don't do so daily. I would prefer a free range chicken than a Purdue chicken filled with hormones I don't think it is morally wrong to eat flesh from the land, sea or air. You use the word 'humane' as a reference to how an animal is killed for consumption, well there is no 'nice' way to kill only a quick way.

...And no I do not consider myself inhumane based on these views. I care more about suffering humans than suffering animals. Sorry species bias

I guess the argument for humitarian vegetarianism is that a person who is habituated to killing animals will be habituated to doingit amongst their own species - if one truly appreciates the value of nonviolence they will apreciate it anywhere - like for instance one who appreciates gold appreciates it whether it is chinese gold or american gold. In the same way if compassion is truly appreciated one will not be misely in its application, particularly if there are a range of vegetarian options easily available (you don't live in the alaskan wastelands do you?)

I checked ou the link too - I guess I would have liked to say that I am surprised but I guess I just lump it in with the latest happenings in the field of human stupidity

I must admit I was a bit taken back by your statement that you were not really concerned with how an animal is killed - I guess the point is that somebody eats it and becomes responsible for the act - I am not sure whether your stance is that you don't see anything intrinsically wrong with killing an animal or you don't consider there is anything intrinsically wrong with eating an animal, regardless of how it was killed since the deeds done and its all history

 

[James R]

The morality of vegetarianism has been extensively discussed in the following thread:

[thread=53226]Is eating meat morally wrong?[/thread]

 

[Meantime]

The morality of vegetarianism has been extensively discussed in the following thread:

[thread=53226]Is eating meat morally wrong?[/thread]

Oh-oh: James calling, "Last Call. Last Call. Last Call."

But isn't that thread several hundred pages long?

=

I am wishing for the day when mankind will explore clean brilliant means to kill humanely rather than exploring means to kill like raving psychotics high on right-wing politics; or invent a viable protein solution, and I mean viable -- beans just don't do it for me: my stamina becomes vapid; or better yet, if our social infrastructure would be very much less stressed-out and competitive-free, and very much more informal, without the remote possibilities for insane burn-outs, bad-consciences, and environmental and social dilemmas, then I'd be happy to do vegetarianism and wander the land like a smiling born-again wearing kaki and synthetic Nike's while chewing on an olive branch.

=

But animals too can be cruel with their prey.

 

[lightgigantic]

Oh-oh: James calling, "Last Call. Last Call. Last Call."

But isn't that thread several hundred pages long?

=

I am wishing for the day when mankind will explore clean brilliant means to kill humanely rather than exploring means to kill like raving psychotics high on right-wing politics; or invent a viable protein solution, and I mean viable -- beans just don't do it for me:

You probably don't know how to cook properly - alot of olympic athletics are vegetarian (I'm not talking about olympic chess either)

my stamina becomes vapid; or better yet, if our social infrastructure would be very much less stressed-out and competitive-free, and very much more informal, without the remote possibilities for insane burn-outs, bad-consciences, and environmental and social dilemmas, then I'd be happy to do vegetarianism

Could be all the bad karma infiltrating the social fabric of slaughterhouse culture - but thats just my opinion

and wander the land like a smiling born-again wearing kaki and synthetic Nike's while chewing on an olive branch.

In other words you chose to be a grumpy, neurotic burnt out over stressed meat eating lunatic

=

But animals too can be cruel with their prey.

Hopefully that would be a distinction between an animal and a human

 

[TW Scott]

You probably don't know how to cook properly - alot of olympic athletics are vegetarian (I'm not talking about olympic chess either)

Ad hominem and Apeal to authority

Could be all the bad karma infiltrating the social fabric of slaughterhouse culture - but thats just my opinion

Spurious logic

In other words you chose to be a grumpy, neurotic burnt out over stressed meat eating lunatic

Ad hominem

=

Hopefully that would be a distinction between an animal and a human

Far more animals are cruel with their prey than humans, but in the end that means nothing

 

[Meantime]

You probably don't know how to cook properly - alot of olympic athletics are vegetarian (I'm not talking about olympic chess either)

Not at all. I was a vegetarian for seven or eight years. I started as an ovo-lacto, or rather, as a fishetarian? then just lacto, followed by regular vegetarianism, but ended up doing mostly macrobiotics. I still pressure-cook organic brown rice and prepare sea-weed on occasion.

In other words you chose to be a grumpy, neurotic burnt out over stressed meat eating lunatic

I should perhaps look into this stamina thing, but I assure you, I know my own physiology.

Boy, you're grumpy. Over-eating your sourdough bread?

 

[Meantime]

... or better yet, if our social infrastructure would be very much less stressed-out and competitive-free, and very much more informal, without the remote possibilities for insane burn-outs, bad-consciences, and environmental and social dilemmas, then I'd be happy to do vegetarianism and wander the land like a smiling born-again wearing khaki and synthetic Nike's ...

Interesting, Lightgigantic, why you chose to skip my best item on my wish list. But I was being very serious, there. It's something like this about society and morals: certain internal organs can not so readily be transplanted unless they are perfectly compatible.

 

[lightgigantic]

Interesting, Lightgigantic, why you chose to skip my best item on my wish list. But I was being very serious, there. It's something like this about society and morals: certain internal organs can not so readily be transplanted unless they are perfectly compatible.

I guess i saw this comment as a humourous dig which is why I tagged the thing about the neurotic meat eater - I 'm still not too sure what you are trying to state in all seriousness - That the mechanisms of society force us in to modes of self destruction on a personal and communal level? Well i would have thought that a change of diet to something mor e ethical would be a start for change - granted there may be a few persons who have rare medical conditions that make vegetarian living very difficult or awkward, but I don't really think they are the people that the meat industry is carrying out its trade for -

 

[Hapsburg]

Yes we all have to eat, but the question is "why animals?"

Because they taste good and they are good for you.

From what I understand Hitler was a vegetarian.

Using the example of hitler as a vegetarian to say that all vegetarians are bad is a reductio ad hitlerum logical fallacy.

 

[lightgigantic]

Because they taste good and they are good for you.

.

The point is that there are plenty of other things that you can eat that are also good for you and tasty but don't innvolve killing an animal

 

[Hapsburg]

True, but meat contains essential proteins, some of which cannot be produced by our body, and must be found in other substances, such as food. Though there are other protein-rich food besides meat, meats have them in a volume that cannot be found in those other foods. Besides, many meats have other nutritious materials.

 

[lightgigantic]

True, but meat contains essential proteins, some of which cannot be produced by our body, and must be found in other substances, such as food. Though there are other protein-rich food besides meat, meats have them in a volume that cannot be found in those other foods. Besides, many meats have other nutritious materials.

And what have many vegetarian cultures been living on for the previous thousands of years - funny you should be fearful of malnutrition - most people in the west die from eating the wrong things