US Flag Shirts "incendiary" on 5/5 at California School

[quadraphonics]

Using that logic, one could argue that the Cinco De Mayo party was a politically-motivated attempt to intimidate non-Mexicans.

No you couldn't. I've never seen a Cinco De Mayo celebration that was in any way exclusive of non-Mexicans - and doubly so in a white-majority school district.

Do you think the school kids in Morgan Hill regularly have Cinco De Mayo parties at their school?

I expect so, yes. Such is commonplace in schools in the southwest. Typically Saint Patrick's Day, Oktoberfest, Chinese New Year and often certain Jewish holidays are also celebrated as opportunities to share and celebrate the contributions of various immigrant groups to American culture.

One group of students was allowed to have a special day to celebrate the nation with which they apparently identify,

No. Cinco De Mayo is not a celebration of identification with Mexican nationality. It's an American holiday. It is not widely celebrated in Mexico. The purpose of the holiday is to celebrate Mexican American heritage and contributions to American culture. To the extent that it has anything to do with national solidarity (which is to say, not much), it's about solidarity between the United States and Mexico in resisting European colonialism.

If the school was having some big event for Saint Patrick's Day, I'd have no problem with students who weren't of Irish descent wearing something that acknowledges their ethnic background.

Wearing an American flag does not aknowledge these kids ethnic backgrounds. For that, they'd presumably need Irish and/or German and/or English and/or whatever flags. If they'd done that here, well, I doubt anyone would have objected.

Which has nothing to do with the students involved in the incident.

It has everything to do with them: that's the community that's raising them, and those are the values they are going to such lengths to express publicly.

 

[Nasor]

What's the difference between wearing the flag on a shirt and (say) hanging one in the auditorium?

Is hanging a flag in the auditorium likely to cause fights or disruptions? If not, then there's your answer.

 

[Nasor]

But isn't that unconstitutional? In one Supreme Court case, a bunch of kids were warned that if they wore black wristbands (meant to signify protest against the Vietnam war) they would be expelled. Thy wore the bands, they got expelled, and they took it to court. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the kids, because their freedom of expression was violated.

Kids don't have full 1st amendment rights in school. The standard is whether or not something is likely to be disruptive. With the arm band thing, the court's opinion was that the administration was trying to ban it simply because they didn't like the message, not because it was likely to cause a disruption. There are plenty of other precedents for schools restricting expression. Like the recent "bong hits for Jesus" thing.

 

[quadraphonics]

What's the difference between wearing the flag on a shirt and (say) hanging one in the auditorium?

They hang the flag in the auditorium every day, not just when there's a holiday celebrating minority culture.

And my understanding is that these kids were also wearing flag bandanas, in addition to the shirts. It's difficult for me to imagine a context wherein high school kids dressing like that on Cinco de Mayo would reasonably be interpretted as anything other than a political statement. If they actually dress like that all the time, then maybe I'm wrong. But I'd find that pretty incredible.

 

[Omega133]

Kids don't have full 1st amendment rights in school.

Yeah, you're telling me.

The standard is whether or not something is likely to be disruptive.

Honestly, who's going to be upset at a someone wearing their countries flag on a shirt, in their own country?

 

[quadraphonics]

Honestly, who's going to be upset at a someone wearing their countries flag on a shirt, in their own country?

A minority that is being told they aren't a real American by the combination of the display and its context.

You should be angry at the white agitators for misusing the flag as a symbol of ethnic animus, rather than angry at the victims for seeing the message as what it was (instead of obtusely regarding every instance of the flag as a pure statement of national inclusion).

 

[John99]

A minority that is being told they aren't a real American by the combination of the display and its context.

You should be angry at the white agitators for misusing the flag as a symbol of ethnic animus, rather than angry at the victims for seeing the message as what it was (instead of obtusely regarding every instance of the flag as a pure statement of national inclusion).

One of the "white agitators" is mexican.

OK, get back on your soap box now.

 

[Omega133]

A minority that is being told they aren't a real American by the combination of the display and its context.

You should be angry at the white agitators for misusing the flag as a symbol of ethnic animus, rather than angry at the victims for seeing the message as what it was (instead of obtusely regarding every instance of the flag as a pure statement of national inclusion).

But how are we sure that the teens were conveying that message?

 

[quadraphonics]

One of the "white agitators" is mexican.

You mean, had some amount of Mexican ancestry - all of them are Americans.

And this would hardly be the first time someone with some (or even, a lot of) Hispanic ancestry got involved in anti-Mexican/anti-immigrant political activity. Nor will it be the last.

 

[John99]

You mean, had some amount of Mexican ancestry - all of them are Americans.

So what is your point?

He said he was Mexican, he looked Mexican. It is common for people to fly two flags, one from their country of origin or ancestors and one from U.S. Which is probably true for most\many countries.

And this would hardly be the first time someone with some (or even, a lot of) Hispanic ancestry got involved in anti-Mexican/anti-immigrant political activity. Nor will it be the last

I have no idea what you are talking about and never met a Mexican who was anti-Mexican or why a Mexican wearing an American Flag would be anti-Mexican.

 

[quadraphonics]

But how are we sure that the teens were conveying that message?

For starters, that's how it was interpretted by neutral observers.

For another thing, some of the kids parents have told the press that it was intended as a political counter-statement to the displays of Mexican national symbols at Cinco De Mayo celebrations, and specifically that they oppose illegal immigration and support the recent Arizona legislation:

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15030582

For another, that's certainly how I'd interpret a bunch of high schoolers showing up in flag shirts, shorts and bandanas on Cinco De Mayo. High school kids do not typically dress like that, and so choosing to do so in an overt way on such a holiday inherently makes a political statement. And I would expect most reasonable observers to draw the same conclusion - certainly the school administrators saw it that way.

If what you meant to ask was what message the students intended to convey we have, on the one hand, the statements by their parents linked above and, on the other, the fact that it's irrelevant. They're responsible for what messages they do actually convey, not the ones they thought they wanted to convey. If they've been misconstrued, then they should apologize for not taking the care to make their message clear and so avoid offending, and then clarify. If it's a genuinely benign message and they are genuinely contrite about having managed to disrespect their fellow Americans, then I'm happy to let them off the hook. But I strongly doubt it, given the community they come from and the statements from their parents.

 

[John99]

Then the right thing to do is have a 'no flag wearing policy' for all flags.

 

[quadraphonics]

I have no idea what you are talking about and never met a Mexican who was anti-Mexican

What I said was Americans of Hispanic descent. Not "Mexicans." In the first place there are plenty of Hispanic cultures besides Mexico, and in the second place there are plenty of Mexican Americans who indulge in all sorts of bigotry directed at the poorer classes of Mexicans (particularly illegal immigrants). If you've never encountered this, well, consider yourself lucky. It's ugly stuff.

or why a Mexican wearing an American Flag would be anti-Mexican.

That would be an American wearing an American flag to school on Cinco De Mayo. As their parents told the press, they oppose illegal immigration and wore the clothes as a political statement to that effect.

 

[quadraphonics]

Then the right thing to do is have a 'no flag wearing policy' for all flags.

The right thing to do is to have a 'no disruptive behavior' policy for all students, which is what we already have.

Wearing a flag - any flag - generally is not an aggressive political statement. It's context that determines this stuff, and that you seem determined to ignore in an attempt to avoid aknowledging the facts of this situation.

 

[John99]

The right thing to do is to have a 'no disruptive behavior' policy for all students, which is what we already have.

Wearing a flag - any flag - generally is not an aggressive political statement. It's context that determines this stuff, and that you seem determined to ignore in an attempt to avoid aknowledging the facts of this situation.

When has wearing a national flag - any flag - incited violence?

 

[John99]

So basically you are saying that wearing a Japanese flag is anti-Chinese?

 

[John99]

Meanwhile they, most likely, have American flags displayed right there in the classroom.

 

[madanthonywayne]

And the obvious answer is that indeed it should, when it is employed in such a way as to insult and offend citizens of certain ethnic backgrounds.

When said symbol is being employed offensively, the obvious answer is yes.

You should be proud that a public school is refusing to allow sacred national symbols to be appropriated as tokens of racial animus against American citizens. They are defending America from destructive bigots.

That's not clear at all. This isn't some case of thugs attacking some random person who just happened to be wearing something with a flag on it.

This is an instance of the flag being employed as a symbol of ethnic animosity, to intimidate minorities - and those who would so abuse the symbols of our republic (which stands for freedom, justice and equality for all) are liable for the problems that incurs.

Basically, the implication that anyone displaying an American flag is necessarily trying to communicate only benign, admirable messages of national pride and unity is unsound. The import of any symbol depends heavily on how and where it is employed, and these kids employed the American flag for purposes of ethnic division and intimidation. They should be ashamed of this insult to our nation, and you should be ashamed for pretending that they're admirable patriots.

What is your basis for assigning malevolent motives to the five students wearing American flag T-shirts? Is that mentioned anywhere in the article? Do you know them personally? Is there some report of them shouting racist slogans, beating up immigrants, belonging to the KKK, anything?

By the way, those old navy US flag shirts are sold for 5 bucks a piece in July. They're dirt cheap. My kids have several of them and wear them a lot. I've got a few too.

 

[quadraphonics]

When has wearing a national flag - any flag - incited violence?

As it happens, I'm told by some friends of mine who attended this very high school that there was a large brawl some years ago there, initiated by racist hicks who wore lots of overt American flag clothing on Cinco De Mayo in order to agitate Hispanic students. So that's the background for this incident. We'll see if this makes it into the news coverage - as of now I have no outside source for that.

Moreover, there's quite a big of context missing here. We don't really know how these kids were behaving, apart from their dress. But this is in a community where significant tensions exist between Mexican-Americans and whites, so it's difficult to imagine a planned political statement like this not being associated with some other provocative behaviors.

To be honest, I'm starting to wonder whether we'll ever see any serious, in-depth reporting on this issue. It seems to mostly be a dog whistle for the teabaggers: "wearing an American flag on American soil can never be wrong! Grar!"

So basically you are saying that wearing a Japanese flag is anti-Chinese?

It would be, in a comparable situation. Although it's difficult to formulate what that situation would look like. But I can easily think of many situations wherein I would reasonably expect to incite violence by wearing a Japanese flag shirt - a commemoration of the Rape of Nanking, for example.

 

[quadraphonics]

What is your basis for assigning malevolent motives to the five students wearing American flag T-shirts?

Mostly a knowledge of what community relations are like in Morgan Hill (and the south Bay more generally), together with a lack of any benign explanation that fits the known facts reasonably. But also:

Is that mentioned anywhere in the article?

Multiple of these kids parents went on record to the press, in the article I linked, stating that it was a political demonstration intended to display antagonism for illegal immigration, and solidarity with the recent enactment of racist laws in Arizona.

Choosing to do that on Cinco De Mayo is, at a minimum, insulting to their Mexican American peers, even if you do judge their underlying beliefs to be benign.

Is there some report of them shouting racist slogans,

In my book, when hicks from Morgan Hill choose to exploit Cinco De Mayo for a public political in favor of racist legislation - and do so by implying that celebration of Mexican American culture is unAmerican - that counts as "shouting racist slogans."