US citizen murdered by government without trial

@Crunchy

The people who are ordered to drop nukes do so by a pre-calibrated system, in other words they don't need to know where it is headed, they just need to follow protocol.

If we already have our own nukes pointed at American cities and protocols to launch them then our species is fooked.

The thing I like most about occupy is not the level of success they may have in shifting the system, but the fact that they are not apathetic and allowing things to happen to them without a fight, that's something I respect.

That's definitely a good trait. There is nothing that says they can't come back for another try but with a little more thought put into it.

Everyone else I liken to lemmings following each other over a cliff without concern.

That they do.

Having a uniform and a gun is all you really need isn't it? The thing about these organizations is that they are fed and provided for and they follow orders because they are fed and provided for, when you have a currency crises as you have in the US, when the stimulus and quantitative easing fails and inflation finally kicks in and americans begin to feel the full for force of the fiscal situation then you will have an angry mob on your hands and as that happens you will have uniformed men with guns who will follow orders because they are fed and provided for.

Yes, we are at a point where historically violent mob conflict takes place and that's when martial law kicks in. Unfortunately mob violence never works unless it is pre-organized into a military force with very clear goals. As I pointed out in the other thread, there are ways where the goal can be achieved going nuts.

They will do what they do because it is deemed 'legal' to do what they do, and since there is no rule of law for anyone considered an 'enemy at war with the state' it won't matter if the people on the other side are americans because you are already adjusted to the fact that americans can be executed by an executive order without the need of evidence or trail.

Sounds far fetched to you? History wouldn't think so.

Not even martial law can do that. A civil war is required, but that is certainly not a forbidden outcome.

The Obama administration's position that it can kill a U.S. citizen without due process seems to stand in contrast to its handling of foreign-born terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who are provided access to lawyers and who the administration maintains should be tried in federal courts.

Choosing to join the ranks of a war-time enemy comes with the risk of death no matter who you are.

"Ron Paul was not the only presidential candidate to raise questions about the killing. Gary Johnson, who shares many of Paul's libertarian beliefs, said "we cannot allow the War on Terror to diminish our steadfast adherence to the notion of due process for American citizens. The protections under the Constitution for those accused of crimes do not just apply to people we like -- they apply to everyone, including a terrorist like al-Awlaki. It is a question of due process for American citizens."

The sentiment is warm and fuzzy but the reality of how America operates against war-time enemies is simply different.
 
@Cruncy

I don't think you have to worry about Nukes. You don't need nukes to keep a population in line, you just need an ideology and boots on the ground. Mob violence will not be organized, it will be an act of desperation. Martial law can't do that? Poverty can. You should be wary of civil war, just ask a Serb or a Croatian.

Again, this is not about 'risk of death' this is about RULE OF LAW, and due process. This idea of due process seems to cause a cognitive dissonance among the people who are responding, either you have respect for due process and the rule of law or you don't. Either you defend it and enforce it or you don't. All of this justification is just another form of nihilism. Warm and fuzzy? LOL! Your cynicism betrays you. Cynics can't change anything, they don't have the passion.
 
@Cruncy

I don't think you have to worry about Nukes. You don't need nukes to keep a population in line, you just need an ideology and boots on the ground. Mob violence will not be organized, it will be an act of desperation. Martial law can't do that? Poverty can. You should be wary of civil war, just ask a Serb or a Croatian.

There isn't enough Military to keep the population of America in line. Civil war in the U.S. would end up in non-stop bloody chaos for a few hundred years.

Again, this is not about 'risk of death' this is about RULE OF LAW, and due process. This idea of due process seems to cause a cognitive dissonance among the people who are responding, either you have respect for due process and the rule of law or you don't. Either you defend it and enforce it or you don't.

Most laws have limits in their scope. Due process is not extended to war-time enemies.

All of this justification is just another form of nihilism. Warm and fuzzy? LOL! Your cynicism betrays you. Cynics can't change anything, they don't have the passion.

In this particular case, there is nothing I would change.
 
@Crunchy

Legally due process is extended to war time enemies, the US is just choosing to ignore the law, and I don't just mean international law, I mean their own laws.

For every solder there is an M16 (for example) and every M16 has 30 rounds. To pretend thee isn't enough military to subdue a population just ask yourself why it is that a resource lacking nation such as N. Korea is able to subdue an entire population, and a starving one at that.

Laws don't have limits in their scope, its the implementation of laws or its enforcement that has a limit to its scope. So for example Goldman Sachs gets off scott free for implementing a scam but Madoff goes to jail for engaging in the very same scam.

Well you know, apathy is the cousin to cynicism, its what is bred. This of course leads to a deadening of ones nature or rather I should say sensibilities and reaction so no I don't expect you to change. Its part of how your society has conditioned the masses.
 
...
Some very powerful persons had serious reasons why Bin Laden should never be brought under the lights - one of these reasons was not that his capture scored below that of his death when balancing the matter of justice, significance and importance to the security interests of the US. than
divulged from a strict and intense question and answer session....
Treason does not propsper. For if treason did prospe none would dare call it trreason.

Geistkiesel
Yes, I think they didn't want Bin Laden talking about embarrassing things.

I would have liked to have found out more details about exactly how Saddam Hussein was installed by the CIA too....but anyway...

It's not that I trust my government further than I can throw it, it's that I want to figure out what, when, why, and for what potential motives before I start having a conniption about it...and ATM my brain is too mulched to really be able to puzzle this out.
:( I hate being crazy.
 
Yes, I think they didn't want Bin Laden talking about embarrassing things.

I would have liked to have found out more details about exactly how Saddam Hussein was installed by the CIA too....but anyway...

It's not that I trust my government further than I can throw it, it's that I want to figure out what, when, why, and for what potential motives before I start having a conniption about it...and ATM my brain is too mulched to really be able to puzzle this out.
:( I hate being crazy.

Guess what, you figure out what, when and why when you have an open trial, not when you allow for executive assassination. To think otherwise is crazy....I mean I'm just saying.:shrug:
 
Well...if you have an open trial, that's a security issue, though.
Not saying we should not.
Rather think we should. We need to make a point of taking the moral high ground.

However, that said...
Looking at this from a practical angle-one presumes that we will be attacked more during trials.
Also that the trials are not going to be looked at as legitimate in conservative Islamic circles anyway, so the propaganda value of such would be underrated.
 
Well...if you have an open trial, that's a security issue, though.
Not saying we should not.
Rather think we should. We need to make a point of taking the moral high ground.

However, that said...
Looking at this from a practical angle-one presumes that we will be attacked more during trials.
Also that the trials are not going to be looked at as legitimate in conservative Islamic circles anyway, so the propaganda value of such would be underrated.

How can it be a security issue when he's not mac-daddy? No one in the ME has even heard of the guy, and not too many in the US for that matter until he was 86'd. When was the last time you people were attacked Chimpkin? When? You have all these other low level people you're trying in court and yet there hasn't been one attack and yet you have another low level person, no one in the international security agencies ever heard of, wasn't even on their radar and all of a sudden you're worried about attacks? You killed mac daddy don't you remember? And this guy isn't mac daddy#2 or 3 or even 12. Get a grip.

Meanwhile your economic terrorists are busy ripping off your nation, hanging out at the white house, taking your tax dollars to cover their bad private debts, privatizing like crazy, destroying unions and you lot are fear a bloody muslim propagandist who didn't even have any charges formally waged against him by the nation that smoked him. What a god damn joke.

If I were in the financial industry I would be laughing my ass off...on the way to the bank that is. Oh no wait! I would be IN the bank. Sorry my bad.

Al Qaeda meanwhile is thinking Alwaka who? "Oh yeah he's the pamphlet guy isn't he?" Scratching their heads and shrugging as they get on with their jihadi shit.
 
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I'm not terribly worried about terrorists, honestly...
Does not rise above the Houston Freeway Commute Heuristic:
Less likely to kill me than driving to work.
I just said we should have arrested and tried him, I'm trying to puzzle out the potential reasoning behind why we blew him up instead, alright?
I mean, maybe it's simple laziness, for all I know...
 
A person who takes up arms aginst his conunty is guilty of treason.

I congatulate the military, of which I was once a part for 21 years, for a job well done.

I will shed no tears for him and his kind.
 
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No its not!!! Its being extradited. Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen agreed to extradite a US citizen to face criminal charges in Baltimore, Maryland.
Richard Arthur Schmidt, 61, was charged with having sex with a 13 years old boy by a Cambodian court and could face a maximum of 20 years in prison, if found guilty. In late January U.S. Ambassador to Cambodia, Charles Ray, wrote a letter to Prime Minister Hun Sen asking him to cooperate with the U.S. request to extradite Mr. Schmidt. Last year, Cambodia extradited 2 American citizens to the U.S. to face charges of having sex with a minor. You are arguing something I know in fact to be true. Extradition is sending someone back for crimes committed at home or abroad.

Schmidt was extradited because there were outstanding offenses that occured HERE.

If there is not an extraditable arrest warrant in the US, and they send you back, then you are just being deported.

But there was already an Arrest Warrant out for him when he flew to the Phillipines

http://www.justice.gov/usao/md/Public-Affairs/press_releases/press05/SchmidtSent.pdf

But regardless, this is a RED HERRING since the military is not required to extradite Enemy Combatants for trial in the US.

An enemy combatant is only a combatant on a field of battle, that's international law.

BS
Please post this "international law" that explains how ANY bombing would then be illegal.


An unlawful combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war. An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.


The Geneva Conventions apply in wars between two or more sovereign states. Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention states that the status of a detainee may be determined by a "competent tribunal." Until such time, he is to be treated as a prisoner of war. After a "competent tribunal" has determined that an individual detainee is an unlawful combatant, the "detaining power" may choose to accord the detained unlawful combatant the rights and privileges of a prisoner of war as described in the Third Geneva Convention, but is not required to do so. An unlawful combatant who is not a national of a neutral State, and who is not a national of a co-belligerent State, retains rights and privileges under the Fourth Geneva Convention so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial."

That entire passage relates to a person who has been taken prisoner: the status of a detainee .There is NO REQUIREMENT that we take someone who is ACTIVE in Al Qaeda as a prisoner though.


See the part where it refers to TRIALS? Ok, If what you were saying is true then every person who is in Gitmo could be killed without a trial.

Nope, once you have captured someone, and thus disarmed them, you can't summarily execute them.

You are mixing up the GC rights of POWs with those still actively engaged in war.

There is a reason why there is such a thing as due process and why only civilized nations observe that process! And yes I am saying the US government does not operate as a civilized nation, not by a long shot! They're breaking their own bloody laws!

No we are not.
You apparently don't think we have a legitimate right to kill terrorists, but 9/11 (and other attacks) and subsequent attempts to kill Americans does give us that right to use our Military to kill Al Qaeda members where and when we find them.

And all you and others are saying is its okay because its what the government wants to do and you don't disagree with anything the government wants to do because its the government. That's the kind of sick state your turning into and your founding fathers would vomit all over it if they were alive to see how the constitution was so easily shat upon.

Not at all.
They want to renounce Al Qaeda and go back to a civilian life with a job, house and family then they won't be targets. As long as they are plotting and aiding and abetting the killing of Americans then they remain targets 24/7.


I am not contesting this guy's role in Al Qaeda, I am saying the government needs to state its case in a court of law!!!

Nope, Al Qaeda has declared war on the US and thus comes under the perview of our Military, and military operations don't operate that way.
According to you, instead of bombing Japan we should have sent the military in to arrest all of their soldiers and put them on trial.

Preposterous.

I am contesting the right of a government to smoke a man without placing charges and observing due process, you know like those butt-fuck despotic tyrannical countries that the US likes to point its boney finger at all the time.

Except we DO have that right when the organization has stated its commitment to killing Americans and indeed has done so.

What are you saying that Manning should be killed? Or Assange? Without trial?

Nope, Manning and Assange are in custody and thus comes under the protections of the GC.

Arthur
 
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So for example Goldman Sachs gets off scott free for implementing a scam but Madoff goes to jail for engaging in the very same scam.

Total BS.

GS made bunches by short selling subprime mortgage-backed securities, but that is no scam because what people bought was what they thought they were buying. High return but risky investments.

Madoff, on the other hand did nothing but run a massive Ponzi scheme where there was nothing actually being bought.

Arthur
 
You still do not understand the very basics about supporting someone who had openly called for the killing of Americans. :shrug:

Back in 1994, Rudy Giuliani welcomed a terrorist to New York, that was Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams. Then Giuliani got his rose tinted spectacles blown away in 2001.

American money was funding terrorism in the UK, killing British citizens, and Giuliani, and the US Govt, who allowed Adams into the US seemed fine with that, and I don't hear any British citizen calling for the assassination of either Giuliani for displaying terrorist sympathies, or for Adams.

In the case of the OP, the guy should have faced trial. Killing people in other countries fuels terrorism, it doesn't stop it. Notice how we arrived at a peaceful solution in Ireland using diplomacy, not weapons. We tried armed force for a while, and it failed.
 
I have grown to LOATHE the CIA. Drone attacks, justified or not are an anathema to me. Zero risk warfare is disgusting and honourless. I desire peace on earth as an attempt to preserve whatever honour the old warrior code and creed may have had no matter how far back in time we have to go. It is time nations to no longer have warfare as a political option. Modern disagreements and the technology of warfare are not compatible.

As for the rest of this topic I have only one thing to say (quote):

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you -Nietzsche
 
That's why they went into Ruby Ridge and shot an unarmed american woman in the back who was holding a child in her hand!

Not quite how it happened (almost 20 years ago).

A Deputy US Marshall had already been shot and killed on Ruby Ridge, so the situation was tense when the FBI Hostage Rescue Team snipers showed up (not the military). The FBI HRT sniper, under the ROE for the seige, was shooting at Harris (who had killed DUSM Degan) and missed and his bullet went through the door and hit Vicki, who was standing behind the door, in the head.

So no, the sniper did not, as you imply, intentionally shoot an unarmed woman carrying a baby in the back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

Arthur
 
@Adoucette

You have a legitimate right to kill terrorists when you show evidence that the person is a terrorist and even then there are legal boundaries or as the ACLU and Center for Constitutional Rights point out:

Otherwise such a killing would amount to an extrajudicial execution and would violate the Fifth Amendment to the constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to due process.
"International human rights law dictates that you can't unilaterally target someone and kill someone without that person posing an imminent threat to security interests," said Vince Warren, executive director of the Center for Constitutional Rights.
"The information that we have, from the government's own press releases, is that he is somehow loosely connected, but there is no specific evidence of things he actualized that would meet the legal threshold for making this killing justifiable as a matter of human rights law."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/12news/new...xecutive-power-debate30-ON.html#ixzz1ZkFI7KtX

The white house has refused to discuss its legal findings that made this hit necessary. Why not? He's dead isn't he? If there was a clear cut legal backing to this action then there would't be so many lawyers scratching their heads over this. The government operated with impunity and then has decided that they don't have to answer for their actions. Your take along with many others is that 'he was a terrorist' as if being a criminal somehow rubs clean the issue of whether the government has a right to execute a citizen without charges and without oversight.

Oh and by the way Goldman Sachs you ignoramous:

BERLIN: The German government may consider taking legal action in a case in which Goldman Sachs & Co. is accused of defrauding investors, a newspaper reported Saturday.

The U.S. government alleges Goldman Sachs sold mortgage investments without telling buyers they were crafted with input from a client who was betting on them failing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/17/germany-vs-goldman-sachs-_n_541707.html


FRAUD!



Accusations that Goldman defrauded customers who bought investments tied to risky subprime mortgages have only just begun to reverberate through the financial world.

The civil lawsuit that the Securities and Exchange Commission filed against Goldman on Friday seemed to confirm many Americans’ worst suspicions about Wall Street: that the game is rigged, the odds stacked in the banks’ favor. It is the first big case — but probably not the last, legal experts said — to delve into a Wall Street firm’s role in the mortgage fiasco.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/17/goldman-sachs-fraud-charg_n_541686.html


MORE FRAUD!

You lie for these fucking people and I am supposed to accept your opinion on the legality and ethics not to mention the constitutionality of killing an american citizen by executive order without any bloody oversight or explanation.

You, my dear are simply our local woo woo PSYCHOPATH!!! If there is a shred of ethical boundaries and moral conscience within your shriveled soul you have yet to show it.


Ruby Ridge:

before the negotiators arrived at the cabin, an FBI HRT sniper, Lon Horiuchi, shot and wounded Randy Weaver in the back with the bullet exiting his right armpit, while he was lifting the latch on the shed to visit the body of his dead son. (The sniper testified at the later trial that he had put his crosshairs on Weaver's spine, but Weaver moved at the last second.) Then, as Weaver, his 16-year-old daughter Sara, and Harris ran back toward the house, Horiuchi fired a second bullet, which passed through Vicki Weaver's head, killing her, and wounded Harris in the chest. Vicki Weaver was standing behind the door through which Harris was entering the house, holding their 10-month-old baby Elishebath in her arms. The Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (June 10, 1994) stated in section I. Executive Summary subhead B. Significant Findings that THE SECOND SHOT DID NOT SATISFY CONSTITUTIONAL STANDARDS FOR LEGAL USE OF DEADLY FORCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge


To put it bluntly killing Vicki, who had no charges waged against her, was a criminal act. The entire engagement on Ruby Ridge was a criminal act perpetrated by the FBI so if it was an 'accident' as you call it, it doesn't really matter because Horiuchi's presence was unlawful to begin with.

"It has been alleged that during this initial period negotiations were ignored as a strategy and that only tactical responses were considered. Indeed, the FBI has been criticized for its failure to contact the occupants of the Weaver residence until Saturday evening, after the sniper shots had been fired and Vicki Weaver had been killed. We have been told by observers on the scene that law enforcement personnel made statements that the matter would be handled quickly and that the situation would be "taken down hard and fast." [FN528] Some individuals have contended that the helicopter flights over the Weaver compound were designed to lure the subjects out so that they could be targets for the snipers who were under orders to shoot and kill armed adult men."

But how can I expect you to agree when you believe the government has a right to kill its own citizens.
 
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