Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights

My point was that it does not matter which came first, but that they both exist in the same space. A festival in the middle of winter was around before Christianity reached the west, but in an effort to wipe out the pagan religion, Christianity took it and transformed the part, and Christmas was born.

Do other religions know Christmass ? Are there still peoples supporting this festival in the middle of the winter ?

Those are essential differences that lead to the knowledge that as Christianity took this festival and transformed it into their own , just like it was the case with your previous (NOI) example , Islam did not take it and made it its own .

No other peoples than those who already practiced it started practicing it through Islam , while the exact same thing happened to other religions as well .

How would you separate out culture from religion, if you agree that religion is the action of religion, not just the written form of it. (that is that a religion can exist without the dependence on a written book)

You mean the first religion as a word to be culture , I understand the flaw . However while much of the religious action is culture , alot of culture is not religious action . For instance consumerism is cultural , however it is not a religious action .

And so can culture exist without the dependance of religion .

The seperation of culture and religion shows itself when one religion can have so many cultures and one culture can have so many religions . For instance we have Islam with Arabs , Africans , Europeans and South-East Asians . We also have Arabs with Islam , Christianity or Judaism .

The female circumcizion case is an African cultural tradition that can go with any religion .
 
?Do other religions know Christmass ? Are there still peoples supporting this festival in the middle of the winter ?

Since Christianity massacred most people who won’t convert it’s a bit hard to comment. I’m not sure if the Northern people celebrate a mid-winter festival, but I’ll look into it. The point was that religions incorporate existing cultural traditions to gain validation.
I agree that mainstream Islam has not taken F.M into its tradition. However that does not negate the fact that the people who carry out the action consider themselves Muslim. Is the action they perform forbidden by Islam, or its teachers?
>You mean the first religion as a word to be culture , I understand the flaw . However while much of the religious action is culture , alot of culture is not religious action . For instance consumerism is cultural , however it is not a religious action .
…there are many who would say that the protestant work ethic led to consumerism.

>And so can culture exist without the dependance of religion .
I’m not sure that you can separate them. The USSR had to make communism it’s religion because religion is the everyman’s philosophy, their directions for how to live, culture can’t forfil that function.

>The seperation of culture and religion shows itself when one religion can have so many cultures and one culture can have so many religions . For instance we have Islam with Arabs , Africans , Europeans and South-East Asians .
This is the fundamental question, is the Islam of Arabs the same as those of Europeans or South-East Asians? They may believe the same laws, but how they practices them is different –no?
>The female circumcizion case is an African cultural tradition that can go with any religion .
it can’t go with a religion that forbids it, values sexual pleasure or just does not see the female body as sinful. in a way religion sets the values, and culture practices them…
 
The point was that religions incorporate existing cultural traditions to gain validation.
that does not negate the fact that the people who carry out the action consider themselves Muslim. Is the action they perform forbidden by Islam, or its teachers?

I am sure that is the point , however my point was that as how Christianity has imported Christmas , Islam has NOT imported female circumcizion . It is not about mainstream Islam importing it , it is about any form of Islam .

The fact the peoples consider themselves Muslim is of the same relevance as the fact they consider themselves of any other religion .

there are many who would say that the protestant work ethic led to consumerism.

The fact that a specific ethical element leads or can potentially lead to a cultural phenomena does not make it a religious action . There are many peoples who have never been in touch by religion nor by country with the entire phenomena of protestanism , yet they practice consumerism .

I am not am speaking of members of an originally protestant country , but members of an orthodox country , or a former-communist country , or an asian country etc etc .

IÂ’m not sure that you can separate them. The USSR had to make communism itÂ’s religion because religion is the everymanÂ’s philosophy, their directions for how to live, culture canÂ’t forfil that function.

religion and every mans philosophy is not the same thing , religion requires a system of belief , not a system of philosophical consideration . I assume you uplhold the dictionary ? Go check how its different .

As for culture , how exactly does culture does not provide directions how to live ? Do you believe that all directions given are relevant to the belief or philosophical system ?

it canÂ’t go with a religion that forbids it, values sexual pleasure or just does not see the female body as sinful. in a way religion sets the values, and culture practices themÂ…

Islam does not allow it , and your extraction of premisses is beyond pathetic really .

In anyways , please explain me this :

In Ethiopia , there is with 85% female mutilation .

Religions there are : Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%

So whats up ?

Also it isnt so that religion sets the values for culture to practice , cultre can exist independant of religion as it does as I have shown you .

Surely morality (religious or not) provides a context for a culture to be allowed in , however not all morality is religious . Morality is cultural just as well , ,orality is beyond everything simply emotional . Your culture = practice of religion defintion is beyond all correctness .
 
The WHO lists a number of reason that FGM is carried out, one being; ‘ religious reasons: Some Muslim communities, however, practice FGM in the belief that it is demanded by the Islamic faith. The practice, however, predates Islam.’ I am sorry if I have come across as seeming to infer that the Islam teachings created, lead to FGM. However the argument that Islam does not play a role in some cases of FGM I think will hinder work to stop it taking place. I do not wish to blame Islam for FGM, but rather point out that for some people who advocate it, Islam plays a part in their reasoning and this should be addressed rather than ignored.

thank you for your points...
 
reason that FGM is carried out, one being; ‘ religious reasons: Some Muslim communities, however, practice FGM in the belief that it is demanded by the Islamic faith.

I do not know how their beliefs (whatever they are) exact allow or dissalow or simply dont mention their cultural practices , and how exactly their leaders will deal with this (allthough it is obvious they would use it to their advantage whatever that is) , the point however is that you mention Muslim/Islam as if its an exclusive religion that allows these practices because of its rules who give it room , while this is not so . Other religions allow or dont mention or whatever in these peoples minds just as easily as is the case with Islam .

Again , look :

In Ethiopia , there is with 85% female mutilation .
Religions : Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%

In Kenya , there is with 50% female mutilation .
Religions : Protestant 45%, Roman Catholic 33%, indigenous beliefs 10%, Muslim 10%, other 2%

The point is however that in most African cultures that it happens , there are more Muslims than others . If those peoples would have lived elsewhere , as they do in the examples I mention above , the view would be differently .

I consider this playing with numbers socalled articles tend to have highly rhetorical , and oftenly as purpose for demonization .

It creates an image of difference concerning this object with Islam and any other religion , wich is not the case .

However the argument that Islam does not play a role in some cases of FGM I think will hinder work to stop it taking place

Weither the denial of Islam having relation to such pracitices hinders the practices from existing or not , is totally not relevant to the fact weither the proposed relation is true or not .

However it is very relevant to the question weither this discussion ought aims to solve the problem or not , wich IMO it doesnt .

but rather point out that for some people who advocate it, Islam plays a part in their reasoning and this should be addressed rather than ignored.

Then why do you exclude Islam from the other religions practiced by these peoples ? Simply because of the quantity ? Because there are more of them , the chances are higher ? :rolleyes:

Islam has no functioning in their reasoning whatsoever when considering these practices , they either dont care for it as its not mentioned , or athey make up an answer as they question the possibility . The same answers would be made up when questioning any other religion in such position . When man is looking for an answer he will come up with one , as his aim is not knowledge but to provide legislation .

It is very easy to find answers you look for nomatter what book you use , it ha sbeen proven so many times before .
 
Hunny bun, its you that’s bring up numbers to prove your point.

>In Ethiopia , there is with 85% female mutilation .
Religions : Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%

Which to account for the 85% (would be 40%+12%+8%=60%) so to make up the 85% FGM the left over 25% are Muslims –no?

But I understand that you disagree with the WHO when they list one of the five reasons that FGM takes place as being a wish to adhere to Muslim doctrine.

>Then why do you exclude Islam from the other religions practiced by these peoples ? Simply because of the quantity ? Because there are more of them , the chances are higher ?
Because the four other reasons listed by the WHO do not include the belief that they must do FGM to adhear to those religions. http://www.who.int/inf-fs/en/fact241.html
‘The reasons given by families for having FGM performed include:
• psychosexual reasons: reduction or elimination of the sensitive tissue of the outer genitalia, particularly the clitoris, in order to attenuate sexual desire in the female, maintain chastity and virginity before marriage and fidelity during marriage, and increase male sexual pleasure;
• sociological reasons: identification with the cultural heritage, initiation of girls into womanhood, social integration and the maintenance of social cohesion;
• hygiene and aesthetic reasons: the external female genitalia are considered dirty and unsightly and are to be removed to promote hygiene and provide aesthetic appeal;
• myths: enhancement of fertility and promotion of child survival;
• religious reasons: Some Muslim communities, however, practise FGM in the belief that it is demanded by the Islamic faith. The practice, however, predates Islam.’
 
Im not hunny bun and please do have the decency not to patronize the person you are trying to have a civilized conversation with , ok weebee ?

Which to account for the 85% (would be 40%+12%+8%=60%) so to make up the 85% FGM the left over 25% are Muslims –no?
Click to expand...

* I am not trying to prove that Muslims do not do it , the point was that there are peoples from other religions , that provide the exact same context like Islam , wich is totally irellevant and independant of the cultural practice .

* A person could use even Buddhism for morbide necrofilic rape , if that is their intention to do before they are aware of Buddhism .

* You exclude Islam into your comparison , while other religions offer the exact same possibilities in the eyes of such peoples , there is no quantity-cause relation , understand ?

But I understand that you disagree with the WHO when they list one of the five reasons that FGM takes place as being a wish to adhere to Muslim doctrine.
Click to expand...

* I disagree with the WHO forgetting about the other religious doctrines that a being wishes to adhere when these practices take place . The WHO has forgot about them because the o so scientifical WHO just picked Sudan or any other major Muslim country , figured its a Muslim practice and asked Muslims so that when the reasons are given no other religious doctrine can be pursuid than Islam .

Because the four other reasons listed by the WHO do not include the belief that they must do FGM to adhear to those religions.
Click to expand...

* I am not talking about the other 4 , I am talking about the reason for following religious doctrine . The following of such religious doctrine does not equalize to Islam . Surely it does the the WHO , because like I said their research is based on Muslims when there is a religious concern . Did they ask Protestants , did they ask Catholics ?

* And even if that would prove to be so , that they do not choose it in order to follow a Jewish or Christian or whatever religious doctrine , then still this does not prove it to be a difference in how much one can get away with within a religious perspective , as you have tried to present it .

* And most importantly , your previous conclusion of the relevancy of Islam with these practices IF the research would have been done correctly witch didnt happen , then 1/5 when a majority is Muslim , you really disprove any relevance that would have been left .

As for your link , just some points :

and any other procedure that falls under the definition given above.

* 6 types they say , of wich the last type (second part) is defined by not one of these first 5 (and first part of 6) . That is not way to define things , its ridiculous .

Most of the girls and women who have undergone genital mutilation live in 28 African countries, although some live in Asia and the Middle East.

I would like to see wich countries this would be in the Mid-East , as no country of the Arabian peninsula allows these practices in any way . Perhaps they speak of immigrated African girls , in the same way they are immigrated to Europe or America .

Also Asia I am curious about .
 
I was going to write a sarki comment back but I can’t be arsed; Sorry if you took the nick name the wrong way but its your problem not mine. Now, wanting to mention something interesting I saw that Egypt (1995) had a 97% for FGM. …and I was reading about the issue there of medicalizating it in an effort to stop girls dieing from the procedure. However on the topic of Egypt;

‘The Koran says nothing about circumcision, and it is clearly an ancient custom predating Islam. But some conservatives, like Sheikh Yussef al –Badri of the al-Azhar Islamic University of Cairo, often quote the Hadith, the traditions of the deeds and words of the Prophet and his Companions, to argue their case for FGM.’ http://www.secularislam.org/newsletter/1/women.htm

If your interested, I found a reference to the Asian countries ;‘It also occurs in some Muslim groups in Indonesia where the most common form is a symbolic pricking, scraping or touching of the clitoris. It is reported by medical professionals to be practiced by a very small number of Malay Muslims in rural areas in Malaysia where it resembles a symbolic prick, a tiny ritual cut to the clitoris or where the blade is simply brought close to the clitoris. It also occurs to a very small extent among the Bohra Muslims in the largest cities of Sindh and Punjab provinces in Pakistan.’ http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/rep/9276.htm

Btw if you have an issue with the WHO, take it up with them.
 
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