Understanding and defining religion afresh

[Mosheh Thezion]

Yes... Hence the need to Begin a new religion.. a new church.
-MT

 

[Buddha1]

are you a Buddhist? In the Empirical Church we study Buddhism on wednsday.-MT

No I'm not really. I don't have the time for spirituality (alas!). But I do worship Buddha and Jesus and include them in my prayers.

I do feel Jesus has been appropriated by Christianity.

And its not my personal tirade against Christianity or Islam. I'm just trying to see things in a larger perspective. I attribute a lot of what is wrong with the world today to Christianity.

 

[Buddha1]

Yes... Hence the need to Begin a new religion.. a new church.- MT

The very word 'church' brings back memories of 'institution', 'politics', mass murders, proseletyzing, spreading hatred against original simple people who worshipped nature......

There have been several movements to reform Christianity and form new branches. And it has made Christianity a lot better.

But why have any institution at all? Why not empower the individual to relate with God on his own.

How can you reach the real God unless you break away from the 'hatched-up' scriptures?

I suggest that we go back to worshipping nature --- we will develop a lot of respect for it then, and this can go a long way in reducing the ill effects of science on our inner and outer nature.

 

[Buddha1]

Yes... Hence the need to Begin a new religion.. a new church.
-MT

As long as Chrisitianity and Islam are alive and kicking, the world cannot really return to true spiritualism. Because both these religions are still out to usurp other cultures and convert them by hook or by crook (including violence).

No spiritual faith can survive in this over zealous, over ambitious world without succumbing to the pressure of bringing politics into its folds --- those who could not adjust to this new phenomenon religion (and gave up their spirituality for politics and power) have already been wiped out from the faces of the earth. They are now to be found only in history books --- often maligned. Or to be practised by a few people termed 'freaks' or 'alternative'.

Any new spiritual effort has to contend with these too hostile forces with immense social, political, economic and technological power, and no genuine effort can really take root here.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

i dont believe in worship.. and i dont promote it.

I obey, and i encourage you to... and by that i mean Love, and care and treat your fellow man as your very brother... and if this is so, then we must help all our brothers who need help.. and by this.. we must provide real... long term help.

-MT

 

[Buddha1]

i dont believe in worship.. and i dont promote it.

Worshipping allows you to be in touch with the 'God' personally. Any other thing is a hoax, especially if it institutionalised worshipping.

Plus, this is what our ancestors did, and thus is much more trustworthy than what your scriptures tell us.

I obey, and i encourage you to... and by that i mean Love, and care and treat your fellow man as your very brother... and if this is so, then we must help all our brothers who need help.. and by this.. we must provide real... long term help.-MT

Proseletyzing talk?

 

[duendy]

in generql when we say we are bonding with someone it means we are getting to know each other. becoming familiar with each other, doesn't it. it doesn't really mean we are becoming in bondage, which has a negatic connotation

i know what you mean about dogma. for me that ISbinding. i see this transiton occured when it got writ down. in theWest i am seeing tis happening in anceint Greece when the Orphics reformers --the first mystery /mystical school-- wrote down their dogma.

Witout being patronizing, i really recommend you look at the ancient cult of Orphism. if you type 'From Orphism to Gnosticism' at google you will find.

Orphism was the first mystery/mystical school of anceint Greece, and is a MAJOR influence on Christianity, so to understand Christianity better it's wise to study its origins, no.

Whhat do we find then?----and in looking at this, i will explore your question, Buddha1, where you ask for a definiton of spiirituality.

The Orphics reformed the more CELEBRATORY Earth religion of Dionysos. Celebratory, meaning, celebrating Nature, being human, andecstatic expression, ad open interpretaton of ecstatic experience inspired wit psychedelic sacrament

So soo, tisis crucial to undersand as it reveals a MAJOR TRANSITION from celebratoryunderstanding of being in Nature as a human being/animal gto a guilty being, divided between 'good' and 'bad' and the hop to escape Nature and te body and return to a spiritual souce in the heavens!!

The Orphic myth summarized:

That the human is part 'Titanic' -ie., part gross matter/'bad' (the 'Titans' were the veryancient gods of Greece which were more chthonic gods,meaning Nature spirits), and also had had 'divine sparks'/'Dionysos' trapped in the body/ So the Orphics beliving this devized 'purification' rituals so as to eventually release these sparks so asthey could return.

This dogma they write down for te first time. This dogma psychologically divides the believer of it up, and thus incites conflict within the person.

The Orphics famous saying was 'soma sema' which meant 'the body a tomb'. They claimed one could eithe find release in tei lifetime or it would take mabe many lives--via reincarnation--to finally find release from Nature and return 'home'. so you can see they introduce into the West idea of reincarnation and karma (this is most likey an Oriental influence). They also introduced the notion of hell and everlasting punishment.

So these are ideas aren't they? and once writ down influence the generations, and new religions like Christianity, Islam etc, where same motifs are used to stifle freedom.

The Orphics of course eventually dilute and then phase out even psychedelic sacrament, and all that's left is guilt-inducing symbology, as is same witf Chrtistianity and all the religons and cults now

DIRECT spiritual experience via free use of psychedelics is denied us.
so what do i mean by spiritual?

 

[duendy]

so what IS spirituality?

in te philosophy forum i began a thred where i had showed a very interesting chart titled 'The Evolution of Dualism'. For me, itis exceptionally interesting because it whos a MASSIVE dramatic turningpoint when we move from Religious Age to Scientific Age, which we are in now

For example. In the reliions and cults from Zoroastrainaism we can seethat 'spirit' is glorified and matter denigrated, but when science arrives this dramatically changes over. 'Spirit' becomes denigrated and eventually phased out from from and 'matter' becomes the be all and end all.

But look closely at how the religious age--ala patriarchal religios indocrination--understood 'spirituality'. For them i is divided from 'gross matter'! it is de-eroticized, de-natured. So they too had created a schism between 'spirit' ad 'matter' and then science comes along, and keeps one side of this--'matter', and discards 'spirit'. thus keeping a conflict between spirit and matter also; though rules have been changed game stays same!

So now we live in a materialistic world dont we, andhave a materialistic mindset indoctrinated into us via schools, etcetc

we are made to feel like isolated islands of consciousness existing in a desert of meaninglessness, where Nature is supposed to be 'deaf and mute'.
For materialistic science tells us that consciousness is a product of complex matter/brains and that all othe matter energy is insentient.

So what weNEED is a seeing through all of the abive obfuscating and debilitating myths so as to understand and FEEL Nature ALIVE!...THAT is spirituality. it is realzing spirit IN matter. matters AS spirited

you know when yo feel spirited right? you feel alive ad full of energy. or maybe you are down yet feel really WIH what yo feel rather than inclonflict wit it. wel i am saying that exploring ohe's way into that integral feel, wit one's self and Nature IS spirituality in its original meaning. Psychedelic sacraments intelligently used also give deep insights into this too. They show awesomly just how spirital materiality is.

Many religionists ad skeptics never seems to be aware of take into account just how dulling dogma can be, even scientific dogma. for it DE-sprits us

 

[The Devil Inside]

spirituality is defined by me as: having an understanding and sensing the murkier aspects of "mystical" thought. to be able to live in a world in the way jesus was reputed to have done is a good example of "spiritual".

 

[duendy]

spirituality is defined by me as: having an understanding and sensing the murkier aspects of "mystical" thought.

me)))))haven't a clue what you mean by that. can you explain more fully...?

to be able to live in a world in the way jesus was reputed to have done is a good example of "spiritual".

you mean asexually? being able to perform miracles? knowing you will soon be tortured to death, then escape Nature and return to a spiritual heaven with your 'Father'?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Please define what you mean by "bona-fide" scriptures.

Authentic.

Can you give examples of any non-bona-fide scriptures?

Already have done.

You can be religious without being spiritual - and you can be spiritual without being religious.

How so?

They did not believe in God - but they were very spiritual people.

How do you know they did not believe in God?
And why would you describe them as "spiritual people?

"Religion" is far more encompassing than just limiting it to those major religions that you deem to have "bona-fide scriptures".

Explain.

"Religion is nothing more than a response to the deficiency in the human condition to deal with the existential facts of life - primarily DEATH."

That is atheist rhetoric, religious, but not religion in the real sense. If you're going to spout this, at least give some facts or definate information.

Jan.

 

[Mythbuster]

Also, prehistoric art has been found around the world from Europe, Australia, Africa and China, as well as other places. Enough to provide us proof that men invented religions as well beliefs in animal reincarnation for purpose to be leader of a tribe. So blame our ancestors for being such morons for starting the whole "religion" thing in the first place !

 

[Buddha1]

so what IS spirituality?

in te philosophy forum i began a thred where i had showed a very interesting chart titled 'The Evolution of Dualism'. For me, itis exceptionally interesting because .....

That's an excellent insight. Thanks for it.

I had somewhere in the subconscious thought about how can matter be completely 'negative' or 'useless' as many religions make us believe. What you say about spirit and matter being part of one whole --- and earlier humans seeing world through something which was an integral and unbreakable whole consisting of what we divide today into spirit and matter.

 

[Buddha1]

you mean asexually? being able to perform miracles? knowing you will soon be tortured to death, then escape Nature and return to a spiritual heaven with your 'Father'?

There is a research oriented book written by Morton Smith who chanced upon some highly classified ancient documents in a library in (was it) Constantinople (?).

It points to a heavy possibility that like several other cults of his time Jesus too practised sex with men as a form of attaining spirituality.

Also, the Gnostics --- who according to the classified documents, knew this fact about Jesus are devilised by early missionaries as rampantly engaging in sex with men --- often as forms of religious rituals.

 

[Buddha1]

Also, prehistoric art has been found around the world from Europe, Australia, Africa and China, as well as other places. Enough to provide us proof that men invented religions as well beliefs in animal reincarnation for purpose to be leader of a tribe. So blame our ancestors for being such morons for starting the whole "religion" thing in the first place !

a. There was no such thing as 'religion' in the ancient world. Just like there was no such thing as sexual orientation. The word was invented as an influence of Christianity.

b. How do you know the purpose of worship was to lead the human pack? How are wild imaginations of scientists any better than those of a lay man?

 

[duendy]

There is a research oriented book written by Morton Smith who chanced upon some highly classified ancient documents in a library in (was it) Constantinople (?).

It points to a heavy possibility that like several other cults of his time Jesus too practised sex with men as a form of attaining spirituality.

Also, the Gnostics --- who according to the classified documents, knew this fact about Jesus are devilised by early missionaries as rampantly engaging in sex with men --- often as forms of religious rituals.

Yes and in one te the apocryphal Christian texts suggests Jesus had sex with male

howeverrrr, there is not ANY archeological evidence a character called Jesus of Nazareth existed as an actual person!

It is extremely clear how the Cristian followers appropriated the mythological motif of the 'ever living ever dying ever regenerating god~man' from pagan mythologies. BUT...what the former do is this: they get rid of the 'ever dying ever regenerating' aspect of the god~man' who represented Nature and its cyles etc., and historicize his 'ever-LIVING' aspect!...they in other words make mythology into HISTORY. Christians demand tat A man/'Son of God' over 2000 years ago actually lived, was tortured and then crucified, and later resurrected. This CENTRA: to their FAITH. challenge this you cahllenge their central belief. Christianity's most serious heresy is claiming Christ wasn't God.
THISis why the perpetual conflict with their rival Islam, precisly because the Christian belief of God made flesh is antithesis to the islamic belief in the indivisibility of God.

Al is confusion couod be cleared up in an instant if they all knoew hat the secret hidden belief for te inner core on Christian initiates was that 'God made flesh' meant the sacred MUSHROOM flesh, which they assumed WAS the Son of God (Allegro)

hmmmmm, do i mean it would clearup conlict?....it would begin the pocess, but they would BOTH still have to examine the roots of their patriarchal beliefs and how it separates 'spirit' from 'matter'.

 

[Buddha1]

Duendy,

I don't know about that..... this is the first time I'm hearing that Jesus Christ never existed. It could be true. But as per what I've read, he seems to be a saint belonging to an ancient cult --- which is not unlikely, who was worshipped for 300 years by Gnostics before being usurped as their prophet by the Christians.

 

[The Devil Inside]

you mean asexually? being able to perform miracles? knowing you will soon be tortured to death, then escape Nature and return to a spiritual heaven with your 'Father'?

i mean living by the standard you choose to live in. whatever that means, correct or incorrect in the eyes of society...do your own thing with regards to spiritual matters. the way jesus did. sorry i wasnt clear with that comment
jesus christ (whether he existed or not) set an excellent standard of living by ANY culture's morality. he exhibited the best, most humane traits of any religious leader. i am not a christian, and dont believe he was anything but a guy who understood this earthly existence in a far greater way than most of us will ever comprehend.

emulate jesus fully, and you will live a rich spiritual life. thats what i meant.

 

[Buddha1]

i mean living by the standard you choose to live in. whatever that means, correct or incorrect in the eyes of society...do your own thing with regards to spiritual matters. the way jesus did. sorry i wasnt clear with that comment
jesus christ (whether he existed or not) set an excellent standard of living by ANY culture's morality. he exhibited the best, most humane traits of any religious leader. i am not a christian, and dont believe he was anything but a guy who understood this earthly existence in a far greater way than most of us will ever comprehend.

emulate jesus fully, and you will live a rich spiritual life. thats what i meant.

when you say emulate Jesus fully, do you mean Jesus as described by Christianity?

Or should we attempt to find out who was the real Christ and try to reclaim his real teachings?

 

[The Devil Inside]

well, jesus according to what you know about him personally from reading scriptures.
dont go to a church to learn about jesus. the "wwjd" fad of the late nineties comes to mind.

but in case that isnt satisfactory...the second thing you said.
:m: