Uganda & The Gays

superstring01

Moderator
I normally avoid gay discussions. They're just so fucking gay!

But really. I usually see no point, until recently. I get the domestic debate: You have a vested interest in what happens in your own country. It's just the evangelical right's exportation of hate to shit-hole places where vitriolic idealism already abounds seems like dumping gasoline all over the place while handing out matches small children.

Reason 1,986 why I detest religion.

Is Being Gay A White, European Thing?
By Titania Kumeh | Mother Jones
Thu Aug. 26, 2010 2:05 PM PDT

Ugandan parliament member David Bahati thinks so. The author of the East African country's anti-gay bill told Harper’s contributing editor Jeff Sharlet that "'If you come here [to Uganda], you'll see homosexuals from Europe and America are luring our children into homosexuality by distributing cell phones and iPods and things like this,'" Sharlet recounts in an interview on yesterday's "Fresh Air." How iPods lead to same-sex relationships is beyond me save maybe constant replays of Katy Perry's "I Kissed a Girl." As Sharlet points out, it's actually anti-gay hysteria that's getting exported to Uganda, and the exporters are evangelicals from the US of A. An Advocate cover story penned by Sharlet sheds light on various anti-gay laws gaining traction throughout Africa, and the Americans that are funding them.

But let's go back to Bahati's suggestion that Europeans and Americans are exporting homosexuality: It's a claim I’ve heard before from some black people, my own family included. The rumor has it that being gay is a white inclination that’s seeped its way into the black experience via colonialization. It's largely based on the misconception that gay people don't exist in African history. And it's comparable to the claims made by some conservatives that gay rights, specifically gay marriage, is a fad not rooted in "traditional values" or espoused by any society in history. Which is just plain false.

After some online sleuthing, I discovered a whole lot of gayness, and gay marriages, in various cultures around the world going back centuries. (I know, I know. Appealing to tradition is a weak way to prove a point, but it is educational and pretty darn fascinating). So from the Bronze Age in China, to the eunuchs of the Roman empire, and even to the cross-dressing mugawe in Kenya, here's a brief (but handy) timeline:

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1st Century AD: Already married to a guy named Pythagoras, a lovelorn Nero publicly weds Sporus, a boy.

2nd Century: Roman emperor Elagabalus sends out a request for an out-of-town male athlete named Aurelius Zoticus, whom he later marries in a lavish ceremony.

342: The party is over. Christian Roman emperors Constantius II and Constans issue radical changes to marriage laws, barring same-sex unions and executing those who don't comply.

1552: Francisco Lopez de Gomara reports in History of the Indies that men are marrying other men.

1569: Friar Gaspar de Cruz claims natural disasters in China are God’s punishment for its people's acceptance of sodomy and same-sex marriages. (De Cruz calls this scene "a filthy abomination," an annoyingly popular evangelical meme that's still used today.) Turns out, homosexuality had been going on in China since the Bronze Age.

1576: History of the Province of Santa Cruz describes indigenous women in Brazil who follow the "berdache" tradition of mixing gender roles: "each has a woman to serve her, to whom she says she is married, and they treat each other and speak to each other as man and wife." Male berdaches can also marry other men.

1600s: Poet Li Yu writes about same-sex marriage ceremonies in Fujian and southern China: "If he is a virgin, men are willing to pay a large bride-price."

1937: Melville Herskovits, later the seminal author behind The Myth of the Negro Past, discovers that the Nuer society in Sudan recognizes woman-woman marriages, where an infertile woman divorces her husband, finds another woman to be her wife, and then finds a man to impregnate her wife. The wife's kids consider the "female-husband" to be their father, a tradition that's practiced by the Kikuyu and Nandi in Kenya, some Ibo and Yoruba in Nigeria, and dozens of other tribes.

1973: A British anthropologist discovers the mugawe—a religious leader of the Meru in Kenya—who cross dresses, is usually gay, and sometimes marries other men.

For more juicy info, check out this historian's affidavit about the roots of gay marriage here (PDF).

Titania Kumeh is an editorial fellow at Mother Jones. For more of her stories, click here. To follow her on Twitter, click here.

~String
 
Last edited:
1st Century AD: Already married to a guy named Pythagoras, a lovelorn Nero publicly weds Sporus, a boy.

What became of Sporus?
 
I've just googled it.
Nero had Sporus castrated, dressed as the empress and addressed as ‘Sabina’.

I just knew getting married to Nero would end up badly.
Or perhaps well, depending on your viewpoint.
 
Ganesha to Galen to Freud ... and beyond

This takes me back ... something like six years. That is, the first thing I thought of when I read through the historical review was an article I quoted way back when:

Numerous deities and spirits of other traditions express similar connections between liminality and gendered or erotic diversity. Associated with amazonian behavior and with intimacy between women, the Mediterranean Artemis/Diana is frequently linked to moments of transition. She is the "one who looses" or sets free and is the "goddess of the 'out there'" ....

.... The plump, elephant-headed Hindu deity Ganesha is likewise associated with the threshold and with the blurring of gender distinctions. As the loyal son of the goddess Parvati, Ganesha guards her bedchamber. In this capacity, he is described as a "protean, liminal character" who "stand on the threshold between the profane world ... and the sacred territory," who "protect the purity of the inner shrine," and who "provides access to the other gods and goddesses." Ganesha's head is that of a female elephant, while his torso is that of a human male. Even Ganesha's male torso is, however, perceived as androgynous; his softness, plumpness, and breasts are viewed as feminine. Moreover, both his "perpetually flaccid trunk" and his role as bringer of rain indicate an association with eunuchs, considered liminal figures in the Hindu cosmos. Ganesha is also associated with homoeroticism, by way of both the upanayana ritual, which may include intimate relations between master and disciple, and his patronage of the muladhara chakra. This chakra signifies not only the threshold leading to the awakening of the kundalini, but also the practice of cultic homoeroticism.


(Conner)


Homosexuality and homoeroticism have long been a part of the human experience, both culturally and personally. And people have struggled, the entire time, to understand how this component of our species' socialization fits into the larger scheme of the human endeavor.

Sometimes, in other sociopolitical debates, we hear much about the nature of historical narratives. Sometimes it is the complaint that "winners write history"; in the U.S., we still hear of struggles to define the genuine historical record in classrooms against myths like Empty Continent (white people found the Americas virtually empty), or Southern Reconstruction (blacks could not take care of themselves, thus Jim Crow laws were necessary and for the benefit of the unfortunate former slaves and their descendants).

Here again we find a question of the historical narrative. To the one, homosexuality is allegedly "unnatural", despite habitual homoerotic behavior occurring in various animal species, and had it not been prevalent in human practice, why would God have mentioned it at all when handing down the Law to Moses?

To the other, we often encounter the assertion that religion is a means of exercising authority over other people; while this is undoubtedly an effect that can, over time, become calculated and thus exploited, this is not the natural state of mystical inquiry. We see in diverse mystical expressions a recognition of homosexuality or the homoerotic. And while we might assert that some individual shaman or high priest might have cleverly sublimated his "forbidden love" as some mystical aspect of life, what of the everyday adherents and members of society who accepted such claims, and reproduced them in later generations?

Even in Christian societies, there have been attempts to recognize the value of the homoerotic. "Female hysteria" was long a diagnosis attributed to various ridiculous causes until Freud identified it as part of a broader class of neurotic disorders. But over the centuries, there have been various attempted cures, including rape; for our purposes, though, it is enough to note that somewhere along the line arose the idea of genitally masturbating a woman, often with the aid of a midwife. That's right, a woman getting off another woman was, under certain superstitious circumstances, considered healthy in Western, Christian cultures. (Still, though, the "water massages"—see the Wikipedia article for an hilarious illustration thereof—seem somewhat ridiculous; not so much with the modern shower head, but ....)

One thing we must understand is that the intersection of sexuality and politics is found what might reasonably described as a Gordian knot of human psychological dysfunction. Sexual expression pertains to both our deepest evolutionary programming and most superficial self-recognition.

Looking at the myth of female hysteria, one might suggest that the diagnosis—at least since the time of Galen (second century CE)—it has been used as a device to help men get laid. And, in the end, that might be the driving force behind homophobia: it is perceived by men as a threat to their purported inherent right to fuck women.

Norman O. Brown explained of Freud, "The doctrine of the universal neurosis of mankind, if we take it seriously, therefore compels us to entertain the hypothesis that the pattern of history exhibits a dialectic not hitherto recognized by historians, the dialectic of neurosis." Practical application of the proposition is a complicated and oft-uncertain business, but also a rewarding one.
____________________

Notes:

Conner, Randy P. L. "Men-Women, Gatekeepers, and Fairy Mounds." Parabola. Spring 2000.

Brown, Norman O. Life Against Death. Middletown: Wesleyan University Press, 1959.

See Also:

Wikipedia. "Female Hysteria". August 6, 2010. Wikipedia.org. August 29, 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria
 
I've just googled it.
Nero had Sporus castrated, dressed as the empress and addressed as ‘Sabina’.

I just knew getting married to Nero would end up badly.
Or perhaps well, depending on your viewpoint.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks who are forcibly turned into eunuchs and made to cross-dress.
 
This is the kind of thing they used to teach at English Public schools.

The year of the four Emperors. AD 69.
Sporus played a key part.

Emperor 1. Nero.
Poppea used to be the wife of Otho, but because she was so beautiful, Nero had Otho sent away. After divorcing Otho , Poppea married Nero.
After Poppea died, Nero noticed a boy, Sporus, who had an uncanny resemblance to her. Genitals removed, he made a good substitute.

Emporer 2. Galba
Sporus spends time outside the Big Emperor household.

Emperor 3. Otho
Otho revolts. Wins. And then takes Sporus as his own.
Just as good as his old wife. Perhaps better.

Emperor 4 Vitellius
Not physically attracted, but had Sporus perform for him in a lewd play.

Thus jilted. Sporus killed himself.
 
Not surprised. End of a bad run, from my perspective; traded around and pushed into a life in the cinema.
 
This takes me back ... something like six years. That is, the first thing I thought of when I read through the historical review was an article I quoted way back when:

Numerous deities and spirits of other traditions express similar connections between liminality and gendered or erotic diversity. Associated with amazonian behavior and with intimacy between women, the Mediterranean Artemis/Diana is frequently linked to moments of transition. She is the "one who looses" or sets free and is the "goddess of the 'out there'" ....

.... The plump, elephant-headed Hindu deity Ganesha is likewise associated with the threshold and with the blurring of gender distinctions. As the loyal son of the goddess Parvati, Ganesha guards her bedchamber. In this capacity, he is described as a "protean, liminal character" who "stand on the threshold between the profane world ... and the sacred territory," who "protect the purity of the inner shrine," and who "provides access to the other gods and goddesses." Ganesha's head is that of a female elephant, while his torso is that of a human male. Even Ganesha's male torso is, however, perceived as androgynous; his softness, plumpness, and breasts are viewed as feminine. Moreover, both his "perpetually flaccid trunk" and his role as bringer of rain indicate an association with eunuchs, considered liminal figures in the Hindu cosmos. Ganesha is also associated with homoeroticism, by way of both the upanayana ritual, which may include intimate relations between master and disciple, and his patronage of the muladhara chakra. This chakra signifies not only the threshold leading to the awakening of the kundalini, but also the practice of cultic homoeroticism.


(Conner)


Homosexuality and homoeroticism have long been a part of the human experience, both culturally and personally. And people have struggled, the entire time, to understand how this component of our species' socialization fits into the larger scheme of the human endeavor.

Sometimes, in other sociopolitical debates, we hear much about the nature of historical narratives. Sometimes it is the complaint that "winners write history"; in the U.S., we still hear of struggles to define the genuine historical record in classrooms against myths like Empty Continent (white people found the Americas virtually empty), or Southern Reconstruction (blacks could not take care of themselves, thus Jim Crow laws were necessary and for the benefit of the unfortunate former slaves and their descendants).

Here again we find a question of the historical narrative. To the one, homosexuality is allegedly "unnatural", despite habitual homoerotic behavior occurring in various animal species, and had it not been prevalent in human practice, why would God have mentioned it at all when handing down the Law to Moses?

To the other, we often encounter the assertion that religion is a means of exercising authority over other people; while this is undoubtedly an effect that can, over time, become calculated and thus exploited, this is not the natural state of mystical inquiry. We see in diverse mystical expressions a recognition of homosexuality or the homoerotic. And while we might assert that some individual shaman or high priest might have cleverly sublimated his "forbidden love" as some mystical aspect of life, what of the everyday adherents and members of society who accepted such claims, and reproduced them in later generations?

Even in Christian societies, there have been attempts to recognize the value of the homoerotic. "Female hysteria" was long a diagnosis attributed to various ridiculous causes until Freud identified it as part of a broader class of neurotic disorders. But over the centuries, there have been various attempted cures, including rape; for our purposes, though, it is enough to note that somewhere along the line arose the idea of genitally masturbating a woman, often with the aid of a midwife. That's right, a woman getting off another woman was, under certain superstitious circumstances, considered healthy in Western, Christian cultures. (Still, though, the "water massages"—see the Wikipedia article for an hilarious illustration thereof—seem somewhat ridiculous; not so much with the modern shower head, but ....)

One thing we must understand is that the intersection of sexuality and politics is found what might reasonably described as a Gordian knot of human psychological dysfunction. Sexual expression pertains to both our deepest evolutionary programming and most superficial self-recognition.

Looking at the myth of female hysteria, one might suggest that the diagnosis—at least since the time of Galen (second century CE)—it has been used as a device to help men get laid. And, in the end, that might be the driving force behind homophobia: it is perceived by men as a threat to their purported inherent right to fuck women.

Norman O. Brown explained of Freud, "The doctrine of the universal neurosis of mankind, if we take it seriously, therefore compels us to entertain the hypothesis that the pattern of history exhibits a dialectic not hitherto recognized by historians, the dialectic of neurosis." Practical application of the proposition is a complicated and oft-uncertain business, but also a rewarding one.
____________________

Notes:

Conner, Randy P. L. "Men-Women, Gatekeepers, and Fairy Mounds." Parabola. Spring 2000.

Brown, Norman O. Life Against Death. Middletown: Wesleyan University Press, 1959.

See Also:

Wikipedia. "Female Hysteria". August 6, 2010. Wikipedia.org. August 29, 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria


When it comes to Hinduism, a westrener cannot help but talking outa his ass. Reg Ganesha interpretation, it is mostly BS.
 
So Indians aren't human?

rcscwc said:

When it comes to Hinduism, a westrener cannot help but talking outa his ass. Reg Ganesha interpretation, it is mostly BS.

Well, I suppose so. I mean, if you would like me to believe people from the Indus are inhuman, in order to support the underlying contention that they are exempt from psychoanalytical perspectives, I suppose I can find some way to accommodate you.

Fair warning, though: it might be a while, as I'll need to be really high to take the proposition seriously, and the local market is enduring one of its troublesome periods.
 
“ Originally Posted by rcscwc

When it comes to Hinduism, a westrener cannot help but talking outa his ass. Reg Ganesha interpretation, it is mostly BS. ”
Well, I suppose so. I mean, if you would like me to believe people from the Indus are inhuman, in order to support the underlying contention that they are exempt from psychoanalytical perspectives, I suppose I can find some way to accommodate you.

Fair warning, though: it might be a while, as I'll need to be really high to take the proposition seriously, and the local market is enduring one of its troublesome periods.
Thanks for nothing. I am not seeking support. I made a STATEMENT.
 
Poor you

rcscwc said:

Thanks for nothing. I am not seeking support. I made a STATEMENT.

Oh, poor you. I'm only referring to the necessary implications of your "statement".
 
The obvious question

rcswc said:

I will make one more statement: A typical westrener thinks that anything coming from India is RELIGIOUS and SPIRITUAL.

And your point being?
 
“ Originally Posted by rcscwc

When it comes to Hinduism, a westrener cannot help but talking outa his ass. Reg Ganesha interpretation, it is mostly BS. ”
Well, I suppose so. I mean, if you would like me to believe people from the Indus are inhuman, in order to support the underlying contention that they are exempt from psychoanalytical perspectives, I suppose I can find some way to accommodate you.

Fair warning, though: it might be a while, as I'll need to be really high to take the proposition seriously, and the local market is enduring one of its troublesome periods.

They are not exempt. But how can you apply westren model on Hindus, having a completely different mind set? If you can clarify this, maybe I will accommodate your, presently, crack pottery. Freud OK for you, I don't qurrel. But his theories not valid for Asiatics.
 
I didn't think it was that difficult, or problematic

rcscwc said:

They are not exempt. But how can you apply westren model on Hindus, having a completely different mind set? If you can clarify this, maybe I will accommodate your, presently, crack pottery. Freud OK for you, I don't qurrel. But his theories not valid for Asiatics.

The specific symbolism of expression varies from culture to culture, but the underlying processes of repression, neurotic conflict, and the re-emergence (or "slow return") of the repressed is universal.

Additionally, the symbolism here isn't nearly as cryptic as cabinets and drawers, tunnels, and lakes (all of which have feminine/maternal associations by the Freudian outlook).

Besides, if you look back to my original quote of the article six years ago, you might also note the part where I said, "the whole thing gives me a chuckle inasmuch as I can't tell whether the magazine's issue theme of 'threshold' is more important to the author than homosexuality in terms of the article's content". And if you really find the ideas so offensive, you can always try to show that discussion of homoeroticism involving the upanayana ritual or muladhara chakra is falsely founded.
 
I normally avoid gay discussions. They're just so fucking gay!

Geez, now even discussions can be gay??? I suppose discussions are going to want the right to marry, too, huh? Oh, my god, I sure am glad I'm old and don't have much longer in this shithole world.

.... It's just the evangelical right's exportation of hate...

But, see, you're missing something, String, ....those evangelical preachers think they're right in what they're doing and saying. You don't agree. But, isn't that all purely subjective? If not, where's your moral authority? What's the basis for your ideals of right n' wrong?

Reason 1,986 why I detest religion.

You detest "religion" for the acts of only a few radical individuals? Is that a rational thing to do?

Baron Max
 
“ Originally Posted by rcscwc

They are not exempt. But how can you apply Western model on Hindus, having a completely different mind set? If you can clarify this, maybe I will accommodate your, presently, crack pottery. Freud OK for you, I don't quarrel. But his theories not valid for Asiatics. ”

The specific symbolism of expression varies from culture to culture, but the underlying processes of repression, neurotic conflict, and the re-emergence (or "slow return") of the repressed is universal.

Additionally, the symbolism here isn't nearly as cryptic as cabinets and drawers, tunnels, and lakes (all of which have feminine/maternal associations by the Freudian outlook).

Besides, if you look back to my original quote of the article six years ago, you might also note the part where I said, "the whole thing gives me a chuckle inasmuch as I can't tell whether the magazine's issue theme of 'threshold' is more important to the author than homosexuality in terms of the article's content". And if you really find the ideas so offensive, you can always try to show that discussion of homoeroticism involving the upanayana ritual or muladhara chakra is falsely founded.

How can you generalize?

What does a snake suggest to you? A phallus? A curved PHALLUS?

For us it means DEEP knowledge. Snake m,may be despised by you. We do not despise it, but of course dread it. For bible bitten it is satanic, for us angelic.

With that, where does Freud go? In the nearest dust bin of Hindus. Period.
 
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