Two questions
- Thread starter jpappl
- Start date
Why do you think so?
Do you think that the circumstances of who, when, where, how, to whom, are irrelevant when it comes to proving the existence of God?
You can prove it to yourself, not to someone else.
How can you prove it to yourself?
Well since I don't believe in god, I haven't.
But If someone does believe, they have obviously found a way.
Lightgigantic -
Jpappl said:
This is like an "argument from self-fulfilling prophecy". The idea is that if something is a self-fulfilling prophecy, then it isn't actually true or real, but is merely something one has brought about by one's own activity, and as such, doesn't testify of how things actually are; because for something to be actually true or real, it has to be beyond being a mere self-fulfilling prophecy.
This is something I am struggling with myself. I tend to think that all spiritual pursuits are merely self-fulfilling prophecies and don't have anything to do with how things actually are. At least that for me it would be so, but not necessarily for everyone.
Needless to say, with such an outlook, it is hard to find the motivation to practice.
Do you know a counterargument to this "argument from self-fulfilling prophecy"?
Jpappl said:
This is like an "argument from self-fulfilling prophecy". The idea is that if something is a self-fulfilling prophecy, then it isn't actually true or real, but is merely something one has brought about by one's own activity, and as such, doesn't testify of how things actually are; because for something to be actually true or real, it has to be beyond being a mere self-fulfilling prophecy.
This is something I am struggling with myself. I tend to think that all spiritual pursuits are merely self-fulfilling prophecies and don't have anything to do with how things actually are. At least that for me it would be so, but not necessarily for everyone.
Needless to say, with such an outlook, it is hard to find the motivation to practice.
Do you know a counterargument to this "argument from self-fulfilling prophecy"?
How do you know that?
I am assuming you are asking, how do I know that they have found a way to believe ?
I know if they tell me they believe.
Not sure how much more there is to the question.
If you tell me you believe in god, than you found a way, or a reason to do so.
I may not agree or accept you reasons for doing so but it is enough for you.
Why do you believe them when they say they believe in God?
I believe they believe. They could be lying about believing, but that would be unusual.
Whether they believe or not, I don't.
I, for one, don't just believe people when they say they believe something.
I wish to know whom I am dealing with, so I check how their beliefs transfer into actions.
If that doesn't seem particularly straighforward, I question how strongly they actually believe what they say they believe.
Of course, this affects what sort of communication I wish to have with that person, if any at all.
I wish to know whom I am dealing with, so I check how their beliefs transfer into actions.
If that doesn't seem particularly straighforward, I question how strongly they actually believe what they say they believe.
Of course, this affects what sort of communication I wish to have with that person, if any at all.
Of course.
I don't believe in what they believe just because they say they believe in it.
But I assume they believe in it themselves, otherwise, why would they say they believe.
Are you saying that they don't know what they believe ?
I question others beliefs, but I don't question that they believe it if they say they do.
I have been around various kinds of believers for long enough to see that many people assert a belief as part of some agenda, while they actually don't believe what they assert.
.
Yes I see, especially in politics.
I guess in some cases that can apply.
Obviously there are many who claim to be religious who don't practice what they preach and there are those who will say anything to get something.
But in this forum, although those will argue their case, if someone tells me they believe something I am going to assume they do, otherwise it will sort itself out pretty quick.
Funny, I would say any narrative which pretends the universe was created is definitely not physics.
:shrug:
People seem to have lost sight of "god" as an entity, which seems at least implied in the major variations on that haphazard theme.
You prove theorems, but generally you introduce entities. They are usually presumed to be able to account for themselves beyond that.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any one there. God and "Harvey" seem to hang out a lot together.
Self Fulfilling Prophecy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy
A Self Fulfilling Prophecy occurs when a prophecy is made about a future event with the intention of increasing the probability of the event's occurrence; it usually involves a positive prophecy to get a positive outcome (Eden, 1990).
examples: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfFulfillingProphecy
And of course there is the self denying prophecy where the prediction brings about the failure of its prediction. "Silent Spring" is often cited as an example of this.
And I feel a related point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea
Like having to have a god pointed out.
Good for you! That's actually quite insightful.
The only way to escape a self fulfilling or denying prophecy is to act on the actual here and now without considering its future predictions as part of your decision process. It is the attempt to act on the prediction with brings about the fruition of the prophecy.
I'd like to note the lit. makes it look so easy, but in real life working SFPs or SFDs is usually much more difficult. This is because if people see it for what it is, they tend to abandon that course because they feel manipulated.
But it is still a very real phenomena. The classic example is giving teachers an upfront impression of a student which they then tend to conform with in their interactions with that student. So if you are a student, or have kids, ALWAYS present yourself as smarter than you are and it will help you get the best learning available from that interaction.
How do you know this is the only way? Have you tried out everything there is to try out, in this whole Universe?
We are talking about something like this:
It's presumed to be big. Really big.
And you are telling me you have tried out everything everyone in this
has to offer?
Yes, this is the problem: feeling manipulated.
But on the other hand, this feeling of manipulation could also be connected with the assumption that the result of an action came about entirely due to our own activity, that we have caused it, along with having created the laws of cause and effect, matter and so on.
In this regard, the feeling of manipulation, the feeling that something came about merely as a result of a self-fulfilling prophecy, is connected to quite a bit of presumptiousness on the part of the one feeling so (however victimized they might feel by the notion of a self-fulfilling prophecy).
One can't feel hurt or cheated unless one thought that one had control over the matter.
So this feeling hurt or manipulated is an example of the impersonalist tendency to lord it over material nature; seeing that one cannot lord it over material nature; and feeling bad about this. False ego.
Lightgigantic, what say you to this?
(I feel quite proud now!
)