Truth be known? Christianity was borrowed!

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
Has the Gospel borrowed historical accounts describing Jesus from previous Pagan Eastern scriptures which existed centuries before the Bible?

Krishna was depicted as if crucified. The Persian remembered only the atoning sufferings on the cross of Mithras the Mediator. Aztecs prayed for the return of their crucified saviour, Quexalcoatl, and were rewarded with Cortez. Caucasians chanted praises to their slain Divine Intercessor, Prometheus, for voluntarily offering himself upon the cross for the sins of a fallen race. Yet the Christian disciple hugs to his bosom the bloody cross of the murdered Jesus, confident that only one god ever died for the sins of man.

To retain their following, Christianity is based on unchangeable dogmas which disciples must accept to the exclusion of all knowledge adverse to their own creed. Whenever they are able they actually destroy contrary evidence for fear of rivalry. Then they magnify their own religion to a unique position above all others.

The earlier Christian saints, having determined like Paul, to know only Jesus Christ and him crucified, made stern efforts to obliterate from the page of history facts damaging to their case.

A report on the Hindu religion, made out by a deputation from the British Parliament, sent to India to examine their sacred books and monuments, was left in the hands of a Christian bishop at Calcutta, with instructions to forward it to England. On its arrival in London, it was so horribly mutilated as to be scarcely recognisable. The account of the crucifixion was gone. The inference is patent.

The disciples of the Christian faith have burnt books, blotted out passages and bowdlerised testaments which suggested the opposite of their belief. Not only that, they have demolished monuments showing crucifixions of previous atoning gods so that they are now unknown. Hence, the disbelief of Christians when other cases are mentioned.

Kersey Graves, in a well known book written over a century ago, gives examples of sixteen crucified gods or saviours. Most are very ancient and arguable, depending upon the interpretation of pictures or scuptures since no original written sources now exist, often victims of Christians determined to preserve the memory of only one crucified god.

For the same reasons the dates of their occurrence are doubtful and because chronology before the time of Alexander the Great (330 BC) is far from certain, and the dating of icons, especially from distant or isolated cultures is uncertain. Even mainstream studies of the ancient Near East are involved in controversy over dates, Peter James for example claiming in a well argued case that several centuries have been mistakenly inserted into near Eastern chronologies. It is certain these crucifixions occurred before the time of Christ, but their exact date cannot be fixed.

These crucifixions are not vouchsafed as actual occurrences. The objective is not to prove them real events but simply that the belief in the crucifixion of gods was prevalent long before the crucifixion of Christ. To establish this point then six will prove it as well as sixteen. Indeed, one case is sufficient. The reader is left to decide.

Tammuz of Mesopotamia 1160 BC.
Tammuz was a god of Assyria, Babylonia and Sumeria where he was known as Dumuzi. He is commemorated in the name of the month of June, Du'uzu, the fourth month of a year which begins at the spring equinox. The fullest history extant of this saviour is probably that of Ctesias (400 BC), author of Persika. The poet has perpetuated his memory in rhyme.

Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.
Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering: Trust ye in God, for out of his loins salvation has come unto us. Julius Firmicus speaks of this God rising from the dead for the salvation of the world. This saviour which long preceded the advent of Christ, filled the same role in sacred history.

Wittoba is represented in his story with nail-holes in his hands and the soles of his feet. Nails, hammers and pincers are constantly seen represented on his crucifixes and are objects of adoration among his followers, just as the iron crown of Lombardy has within it a nail claimed to be of his true original cross, and is much admired and venerated for that reason. The worship of this crucified God prevails chiefly in the Travancore and other southern states of India in the region of Madura.

Iao of Nepal 622 BC.
Iao was crucified on a tree in Nepal. The name of this incarnate god and oriental saviour occurs frequently in the holy bibles and sacred books of other countries. Some suppose that Iao is the root of the name of the Jewish God, Yehouah (Jehovah), often abbreviated to Yeho.

Hesus of the Celtic Druids 834 BC.
The Celtic Druids depict their god Hesus as having been crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other, and that this occurred long before the Christian era.

The elephant, being the largest animal known, was chosen to represent the magnitude of the sins of the world, while the lamb, from its proverbial innocent nature, was chosen to represent the innocence of the victim, the god offered as a propitiatory sacrifice. We have the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world. The Lamb of God could therefore have been borrowed from the Druids. This legend was found in Gaul long before Jesus Christ was known to history.

Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.
Historical authority of the crucifixion of this Mexican god is explicit, unequivocal and ineffaceable. The evidence is tangible, and indelibly engraven upon metal plates. One of these plates represents him as having been crucified on a mountain. Another represents him as having been crucified in the heavens, as St Justin tells us Christ was. Sometimes he is represented as having been nailed to a cross, sometimes with two thieves hanging with him, and sometimes as hanging with a cross in his hand.

Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.
The crucifixion of this Roman saviour is remarkable for the parallel features to that of the Judaean saviour, not only in the circumstances of his crucifixion, but also in much of his antecedent life.

He is represented, like Christ:

As having been conceived and brought forth by a virgin.
His life was sought by the reigning king, Amulius.
He was of royal blood, his mother being of kingly descent.
He was put to death by wicked hands or crucified.
At his mortal exit the whole earth is said to have been enveloped in darkness, as in the case of Christ, Krishna, and Prometheus.
And finally he is resurrected, and ascends back to heaven.
Prometheus 547 B.C.
The crucifixion of Prometheus of Caucasus, described by Seneca, Hesiod, and other writers, states that he was nailed to an upright beam of timber, to which were affixed extended arms of wood, and that this cross was situated near the Caspian Straits. The modern story of this crucified God, which has him bound to a rock for thirty years, while vultures preyed upon his vitals, is a Christian fraud.

The poet, in portraying his propitiatory offering, says:

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?–Yes, 'tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature's sin.
It is doubtful whether there is to be found in the whole range of Greek letters deeper pathos than that of the divine woe of the beneficent demigod Prometheus, crucified on his Scythian crags for his love to mortals. When he dies:

That the whole frame of nature became convulsed.
The earth shook, the rocks were rent, the graves were opened, and in a storm, which seemed to threaten the dissolution of the universe, the solemn scene forever closed, and Our Lord and saviour Prometheus gave up the ghost.
The cause for which he suffered was his love for the human race. The whole story of Prometheus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection was acted in pantomime in Athens five hundred years before Christ, which proves its great antiquity. Minutius Felix, one of the most popular Christian writers of the second century addresses the people of Rome:

Your victorious trophies not only represent a simple cross, but a cross with a man on it, and this man St. Jerome calls a god.
These coincidences are more proof that the tradition of the crucifixion of gods has been very long prevalent among the heathen.

Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC.
Thulis of Egypt, whence comes Ultima Thule, died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago.

Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the gods.

This Egyptian saviour appears also to have been known as Zulis. His history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years BC of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple. Twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years he lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became the judge of the dead, or of souls in a future state. He came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.

Indra of Tibet 725 BC.
This Tibetan saviour is shown nailed to the cross. There are five wounds, representing the nail-holes and the piercing of the side. The antiquity of the story is beyond dispute.

Marvellous stories are told of the birth of the Divine Redeemer. His mother was a virgin of black complexion, and hence his complexion was of the ebony hue, as in the case of Christ and some other sin-atoning saviours. He descended from heaven on a mission of benevolence, and ascended back to the heavenly mansion after his crucifixion. He led a life of strict celibacy, which, he taught, was essential to true holiness. He inculcated great tenderness toward all living beings. He could walk upon the water or upon the air; he could foretell future events with great accuracy. He practised the most devout contemplation, severe discipline of the body and mind, and completely subdued his passions. He was worshiped as a god who had existed as a spirit from all eternity, and his followers were called Heavenly Teachers.

Alcestos of Euripides 600 BC.
A less usual crucified God was Alcestos, who was female, the only example of a feminine God atoning for the sins of the world upon the cross. The doctrine of the trinity and atoning offering for sin was inculcated as a part of her religion.

Attis of Phrygia 1170 BC.
Speaking of this crucified Messiah, the Anacalypsis informs us that several histories are given of him, but all concur in representing him as having been an atoning offering for sin. And the Latin phrase suspensus lingo, found in his history, indicates the manner of his death. He was suspended on a tree, crucified, buried and rose again.

Crite of Chaldaea 1200 BC.
The Chaldeans have noted in their sacred books the crucifixion of a god with the above name. He was also known as the Redeemer, and was styled the Ever Blessed Son of God, the saviour of the Race, the Atoning Offering for an Angry God. When he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.

Bali of Orissa 725 BC.
In Orissa, in Asia, they have the story of a crucified God, known by several names, including the above, all of which, we are told, signify Lord Second, his being the second person or second member of the trinity. Most of the crucified gods occupied that position in a trinity of gods, the Son, in all cases, being the atoning offering. This God Bali was also called Baliu, and sometimes Bel. Monuments of this crucified God, bearing great age, may be found amid the ruins of the magnificent city of Mahabalipore, partially buried amongst the figures of the temple.

Mithras of Persia 600 BC.
This Persian God was slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world. He was born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree. Christian writers both speak of his being slain, and yet both omit to speak of the manner in which he was put to death. And the same policy has been pursued with respect to other crucified gods of the pagans, as we have shown.

Devatat of Siam, Ixion of Rome, Apollonius of Tyana in Cappadocia, are all reported to have died on the cross."

Ixion, 400 BC, was crucified on a wheel, the rim representing the world, and the spokes constituting the cross. He bore the burden of the world, the sins of the world, on his back while suspended on the cross. He was therefore called the crucified spirit of the world.

It is curious that Christian writers will recount a long list of miracles and remarkable incidents in the life of Apollonius of Tyana, the Cappadocian saviour, forming a parallel to those of the Christian saviour, yet say not a word about his crucifixion.

Christian writers find it necessary to omit the crucifixion of these saviours fearing the telling would lessen the spiritual force of the crucifixion of Christ, which has to be unique. They thus exalted the tradition of the crucifixion into the most important dogma of the Christian faith. Hence, their efforts to conceal from the public the fact that it is of pagan origin.

Mackey's Lexicon of Freemasonry says that Freemasons secretly taught the doctrine of the crucifixion, atonement and resurrection preceded the Christian era, and that similar doctrines were taught in all the ancient mysteries.

The Authors give Full Permission to Use any of the Above Material As Your Own to distribute for Free.

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Some of what you have discovered may be true.
But this in no way discounts the authenisity of the Bible as the Word of God today.
God has always been here in one form or another.
The truth has traveled from the east to the west like the setting of the sun.
The scriptures say so shall the coming of the son of man be.....as the lightening travels from the east to the west.
The oldest book in the bible......is Job, and his "comforters" are obviously oriental which was the first great civilization after the flood.
All mankind after the flood desended from Noah and his three sons, and the whole world was not only of one laungage but also worship the one true God Jehovah all the way up to Nimrod in Babylon.
The truth has traveled from the east to the west. Martin Luther's Message from God against Catholism in Germany in the 1500's, Wesley's message of "santification" in England in the 1700's to America as a Christian nation.
It's gone as far west as It can go.
It is not surprising then that other accounts of a coming sacrifice for man's sins would be recorded in theses ancient scripts by those wise men with prophetic insight.
Don't be so close-minded and hurried in your attempt to disprove Jesus just because of your bad experience with catholisism, and God may reveal the truth to you yet.
 
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TheVisitor said:
Some of what you have discovered may be true.
But this in no way discounts the authenisity of the Bible as the Word of God today.
God has always been here in one form or another.
The truth has traveled from the east to the west like the setting of the sun.
The scriptures say so shall the coming of the son of man be.....as the lightening travels from the east to the west.
The oldest book in the bible......is Job, and his "comforters" are obviously oriental which was the first great civilization after the flood.
All mankind after the flood desended from Noah and his three sons, and the whole world was not only of one laungage but also worship the one true God Jehovah all the way up to Nimrod in Babylon.
It is not surprising then that other accounts of a coming sacrifice for man's sins would be recorded in theses ancient scripts by those wise men with prophetic insight.
Don't be so close-minded and hurried in your attempt to disprove Jesus just because of your bad experience with catholisism, and God may reveal the truth to you yet.
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M*W: I am not as close-minded as you may think! My attempt is not to "disprove Jesus," but to disprove Christianity. Believe it or not, the two are not necessarily joined at the hip. God reveals truth to me everyday. We're close personal friends.
 
M*W: I am not as close-minded as you may think! My attempt is not to "disprove Jesus," but to disprove Christianity. Believe it or not, the two are not necessarily joined at the hip. God reveals truth to me everyday. We're close personal friends.
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Maybe it was your comment about not needing any "demigod like Jesus"' that confused me....sorry.
What I am trying to say is "Christianty" is not a true representitive of Christ today.
The church is in apostasy, and does not represent the Word of God.
That's what causes Him to come back in this day as the Judge.
It is good you saw the faults in Catholisim, some never do, and thier sealed with the mark of the beast.
Just don't put Jesus to blame for man's coruption of His Word and good Name.
The truth is "out there".
 
This is a picture of the false religious organizations today that claim christianty.
Isaiah saw this nearly 3000 years ago.

Isaiah 4:1 - And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
 
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TheVisitor said:
M*W: I am not as close-minded as you may think! My attempt is not to "disprove Jesus," but to disprove Christianity. Believe it or not, the two are not necessarily joined at the hip. God reveals truth to me everyday. We're close personal friends.
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Maybe it was your comment about not needing any "demigod like Jesus"' that confused me....sorry. What I am trying to say is "Christianty" is not a true representitive of Christ today.
The church is in apostasy, and does not represent the Word of God. That's what causes Him to come back in this day as the Judge. It is good you saw the faults in Catholisim, some never do, and thier sealed with the mark of the beast. Just don't put Jesus to blame for man's coruption of His Word and good Name.
The truth is "out there".
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M*W: Let me say right now, I feel passion for Jesus, and I do believe he existed. I don't believe he was anybody's savior. He was a scapegoat. I don't believe he was crucified or resurrected. I believe he was married to Mary Magdalene and they had children. The Holy Grail is MM's womb.

I agree with you. Christianity is not a true representative of Christ. Too many egos got involved. The worst of all was Paul. I believe if there is an antichrist, Paul is it.

I partly converted to Catholicism because my parents were dead set against it. I raised my children as Catholics. Two of them are still Christians but not necessarily Catholic, and my two younger daughters believe as I do.

I feel as if I know the real Jesus. I feel as if I can interpret what he has allegedly said, but no one really knows what he said because Paul wrote it or had Luke and John write the Gospels. I also believe MM wrote the Gospel of John. There were so many lies perpetuated by the RCC. What shame I felt when I visited St. Peter's in Rome! While I was there, I felt there were something evil going on. I couldn't explain it, but I got chills like my skin was crawling while I was on the tour.

I would like to get to know the real Jesus. From Paul's writings, we really don't know the real Jesus. There is no documentation in history that alludes to the actual life of Jesus. I believe that Christ will live in the human race, and everyday we are moving toward a more Christ-like existence.

My beliefs don't deny Jesus. My beliefs just deny the part that Paul wrote. If anything, I believe I know Jesus better than the Christians. He was an example given to the human race by God, telling us how he wanted US TO BE. Therefore, we are evolving toward a Christlike existence.
 
M*W, do you care to find <font color=red size=2pt>good</font> historical references to support those beliefs. Of course Krishna would be depicted as crucified by modern hindus. After all, some of them consider Jesus to have been the image of the Krishna.

Aztecs prayed for the return of their crucified saviour, Quexalcoatl, and were rewarded with Cortez.
Quexalcoatl, was considered a god. I've never read anything that would suggest that he was crucified or that Aztecs practiced crucifications.

Caucasians chanted praises to their slain Divine Intercessor, Prometheus, for voluntarily offering himself upon the cross for the sins of a fallen race.
No, prometheus did not offer himself on the cross. The legend goes that he was put on a cliff and vultures tortured him.


The earlier Christian saints, having determined like Paul, to know only Jesus Christ and him crucified, made stern efforts to obliterate from the page of history facts damaging to their case.
Determined like Paul?

A report on the Hindu religion, made out by a deputation from the British Parliament, sent to India to examine their sacred books and monuments, was left in the hands of a Christian bishop at Calcutta, with instructions to forward it to England. On its arrival in London, it was so horribly mutilated as to be scarcely recognisable. The account of the crucifixion was gone. The inference is patent.
If the book was so damaged, then there would be no way that you would know about it.
 
Acharya S has written pretty extensively and pretty well on the subject.
"The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

Is a very good read, in my opinion.
 
okinrus said:
M*W, do you care to find <font color=red size=2pt>good</font> historical references to support those beliefs. Of course Krishna would be depicted as crucified by modern hindus. After all, some of them consider Jesus to have been the image of the Krishna.

Quexalcoatl, was considered a god. I've never read anything that would suggest that he was crucified or that Aztecs practiced crucifications.

No, prometheus did not offer himself on the cross. The legend goes that he was put on a cliff and vultures tortured him.

Determined like Paul?

If the book was so damaged, then there would be no way that you would know about it.
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M&W: okinrus, this was a cited article. BTW, there is no such word as "crucifications." By now you should know there are NO HISTORICAL REFERENCES that mention Jesus. I cited this from a Jewish website. If you have a problem with it, contact them.
 
By now you should know there are NO HISTORICAL REFERENCES that mention Jesus.
Josephus is not a historical reference?

I cited this from a Jewish website. If you have a problem with it, contact them.
You are responsible for what you post. Since your link is not linking where you quoted from, I found it <a href="http://www.pearls.org/christianityandbible_kjv/real_authors_of_gospels.html">here</a> and is <em>not</em> a Jewish site. If you've haven't notice yet, it's not enough to post from a secondary source. You must post the primary source. Most of the names seem to relatively unheard of. You would think that a story such as "Quirinius of Rome" would be use in polemic debates on the Internet. Instead, a search only brings these <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Quirinius+of+Rome%22+&btnG=Google+Search">results</a>. Now such a signficant figure would have at least some mention in an academic site.

I have no clue what all this blabbering on about "lost books" that were "mutilated", yet this one author was able to magically tell that the crucifixition story was in the "mutilated" book. Personally though, if your going to reject Christianity, at least try learn some discernment in the process.
 
okinrus said:
Josephus is not a historical reference?

You are responsible for what you post. Since your link is not linking where you quoted from, I found it <a href="http://www.pearls.org/christianityandbible_kjv/real_authors_of_gospels.html">here</a> and is <em>not</em> a Jewish site. If you've haven't notice yet, it's not enough to post from a secondary source. You must post the primary source. Most of the names seem to relatively unheard of. You would think that a story such as "Quirinius of Rome" would be use in polemic debates on the Internet. Instead, a search only brings these <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Quirinius+of+Rome%22+&btnG=Google+Search">results</a>. Now such a signficant figure would have at least some mention in an academic site.

I have no clue what all this blabbering on about "lost books" that were "mutilated", yet this one author was able to magically tell that the crucifixition story was in the "mutilated" book. Personally though, if your going to reject Christianity, at least try learn some discernment in the process.
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M*W: okinrus, I got it from the John Stone website. I don't know where they got it. There are questions about what Josephus wrote. Essentially, okinrus, you have NO CLUE! You can't even spell crucifixion correctly. How do you know that I don't have discernment? You don't. Perhaps its you who has no discernment. The longer I live as everyday goes by, I become more anti-Christian. It's a lie, okinrus. You're still young and impressionable, and you're so willing to believe a lie because you NEED to. I don't need to anymore. I've found the truth THROUGH DISCERNMENT. You're making a fool out of yourself.
 
It would be helpful if MW made it clear what shes cut and pasted.
"There are questions about what Josephus wrote."

So, presumably you know the correct answer? Or will you admit that we wont ever really know the correct answer about it?

"The longer I live as everyday goes by, I become more anti-Christian. "
Sure, and many of use also need something to hate to keep us going. Perhaps you might like to answer Okinrus's questions and points rather than repeating your rants.
 
guthrie said:
Perhaps you might like to answer Okinrus's questions and points rather than repeating your rants.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Here we have Okinrus providing facts that are just tossed back in his face or ignored, makes me wonder what some people are here for.

Dave
 
okinrus said:
Josephus is not a historical reference?
OH come on!! It'd be like finding shakespear with a "Yo Yo whose ya Daddy" in it :) and claiming it was authentic!
 
Michael said:
OH come on!! It'd be like finding shakespear with a "Yo Yo whose ya Daddy" in it :) and claiming it was authentic!
I'm afraid it's much more complicated than that. It's very irresponsible to dismiss the Testimonium Flavium as mere anachronistic interpolation in total disregard of present research.

I refer you to the latest information about Josephus' description of Jesus of Nazareth

The site is maintained by an independent scholar, G. J. Goldberg. His critique of John Meier's arguments in A Marginal Jew is available here for those who are familiar with it.
 
Medicine Woman said:
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M*W: The NT Bible: He is called "Rabbi, Jesus" and the following book review: http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/chilton.121200.htm

It wasn't the Rabbi aspect that I was questioning, it was the historical figure of Jesus. So basically you believe Jesus exists because of the information in the New Testament.

I'm just trying to figure out your logic that's all. Ultimately it seems to me that you believe some of the Bible and not all, alot of people think this way, scholars also. Fuzzy logic is what I call it.

Thanks

Dave
 
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