true faith and reasons for each persons belief?

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Empty…,

But mainly it does since these cultures did not have our modern knowledge so magical answers seemed to make most sense to them.

I.e. magic happens. Without some substance to the idea it has no credibility and is simply a wild fantasy.

No I strongly disagree, they are not qualitatively or quantitatively similar. For example; of the countless billions who have died there is no record of anyone returning. Additionally our knowledge of how the brain operates removes the ancient ideas that thoughts, emotions, and mind were the result of an eternal soul. In this light there is nothing that points to anything that can survive death. Why then would anyone persist is proposing something that has no merit? i.e. illogical = irrational. And I was referring to the concept of fear you used in your opening post – i.e. believing in a fantasy for fear of punishment.

I agree but that is not within the context of your thread.

like you associate god with magic, not taking it seriously as a serious scientific possibility, and until we figure out the reasons behind the creation of existance/universe then its open for debate, and as universal as the universe is something such as god is not out of its boundaries and possibilities,


you are thinking purely on a visual level of you human senses, can you actualy dissprove the existance of god,?

and could you please define the meaning of athheist for me please, i thought it ment you believe in nothing because you were unsure, so as you believe in nothing atall then you simply cannot believe in no life after death, because that means you have a belief system and you are sure and assume there is no unseen soul and assume there is no god,


you said yourself its irrational to believe in something without ecidence and its illogical so where is your evidence that god didnt create this universe?


notice i dont even believe in god im just proving something here, anti religious beliefs can be as harmfull as religious ones, im defending religious people because i feel they dont represent there science behind god enough, and even though i dont have faith in god fully, i understand he could exist and its not beyond existance to have a god is it, its scientificaly correct to leave subject open to unbias debate untill hard factual evidence dissproves it,

and you have no hardd evidence that god does not exist, and you will dispute what i said, we will debate over this due to ego;s clashing and opinions in the guise of fact burried in condtradictory misplaced mysticism claims. (yes they were wrongfully placed by yourself, magic is magic your not talking to a peasant from 2 thousand B.C, im speaking of god in the scientific term for an eternal energy conscious that gave birth to mankind and the universe, its possible)


i already know what your reply will be and i ask you again,


can you prove that in advance?



peace.


peace

 

[FallingSkyward]

like you associate god with magic, not taking it seriously as a serious scientific possibility, and until we figure out the reasons behind the creation of existance/universe then its open for debate, and as universal as the universe is something such as god is not out of its boundaries and possibilities,

Agreed, EmptyForce. Cris, I think this is a good answer to your question, "Why consider God a possibility at all?" Because it IS a possibility. I don't know that much about science, but as far as my understanding goes, a physical component cannot be eternal, but something <i>is</i> eternal. If we don't have physics, we are left with the metaphysical.

you are thinking purely on a visual level of you human senses, can you actualy dissprove the existance of god,?

no, he can't. but he is not trying to. although I'm unsure as to why Cris seems to want to rationalize that God isn't even a possibility. That WOULD require proof.

you said yourself its irrational to believe in something without ecidence and its illogical so where is your evidence that god didnt create this universe?

As my new found enlightenment on the definition of atheism has led me to understand, "weak atheists"(apparently the majority of atheists) do not <i>believe</i> that God does not exist/create the universe, rather they lack belief that God exists because of insufficient physical evidence. They lack a <i>belief</i> that God does not exist then, too. But because it is rational to accept evidence, it seems more logical to lean towards God's nonexistance, especially because it is believed by some that the foundations of the major religions were shaken with the discovery of evolution/the big bang(and of course what is God without religion?)

and you have no hardd evidence that god does not exist, and you will dispute what i said, we will debate over this due to ego;s clashing and opinions in the guise of fact burried in condtradictory misplaced mysticism claims. (yes they were wrongfully placed by yourself, magic is magic your not talking to a peasant from 2 thousand B.C, im speaking of god in the scientific term for an eternal energy conscious that gave birth to mankind and the universe, its possible)

Again, most atheists do not BELIEVE God does not exist, rather lack belief because he is not physically apparent. They with hold belief until it seems there is good reason to believe; not knowing what came before the big bang is not a good enough reason to believe a higher power is behind it. (Although it IS a possibility, which you have readily stated; what I don't understand is why you're asking Cris to give you proof when you already know that being atheist does not entail that a person must believe God does not exist, and therefore require validation to adequately support the belief?)

 

[(Q)]

"Why consider God a possibility at all?" Because it IS a possibility.

The problem with that concept is one must then open up ALL possibilities of that which has never been shown to exist. In other words, if the imagination can conjure it, then there is the possibility it exists.

 

[Mythbuster]

The word God it self is beyond imagination. I could use the invisible pink unicorn on everything to explain why i lost my sock instead of looking down my bed to find my sock. I could also use invisible lepercons or the boogeymen.

God means nothing to me. it's like a toy for theists.

 

[Cris]

Empty….,

like you associate god with magic, not taking it seriously as a serious scientific possibility,

That is true since it is a fantasy concept and its claimed properties and abilities are indistinguishable to magic and lie completely outside the realm of scientific investigation.

and until we figure out the reasons behind the creation of existance/universe then its open for debate,

While we shouldn’t close our minds to any possibility we should give priority to credible options. A being capable of creating a universe is not credible.

and as universal as the universe is something such as god is not out of its boundaries and possibilities,

Why? No one has yet shown that a god is possible. What basis do you use to claim one is possible? If you are referring to formal logic where something is deemed possible when it is not logically inconsistent, e.g. claiming a vehicle can travel north and south at the same time is logically inconsistent. By the same token a fairy flying to the moon would be considered logically possible. Whether such things can actually exist is another matter, e.g. in this case the fantasy of flying fairies has the same class as omniscient gods.

you are thinking purely on a visual level of you human senses,

And what other senses are there that we can use to asses truth or not?

can you actualy dissprove the existance of god,?

Why is that relevant? One can imagine an infinite number of fantasies, they only become relevant and worthy of further consideration if they seem credible based on known precedents or there is some evidence for support.

and could you please define the meaning of athheist for me please,

Absence of belief in the existence of a god or gods. Or finding theist claims unbelievable.

i thought it ment you believe in nothing because you were unsure,

That sounds very confused. Atheists are likely to believe in many things, but not the existence of gods.

so as you believe in nothing atall then you simply cannot believe in no life after death, because that means you have a belief system and you are sure and assume there is no unseen soul and assume there is no god,

Atheism is not primarily a belief system. Note that Buddhists are technically atheists but they do believe in an afterlife, although to be fair to Buddhists that is an over simplification. But most atheists are also materialists in that they do not find the duality proposition believable.

you said yourself its irrational to believe in something without ecidence and its illogical so where is your evidence that god didnt create this universe?

Update yourself on the meaning of atheism first then you’ll see that atheists simply find the theist claims unbelievable and not that atheists believe these things do not exist.

notice i dont even believe in god im just proving something here, anti religious beliefs can be as harmfull as religious ones,

I understand.

im defending religious people because i feel they dont represent there science behind god enough, and even though i dont have faith in god fully, i understand he could exist and its not beyond existance to have a god is it, its scientificaly correct to leave subject open to unbias debate untill hard factual evidence dissproves it,

Science isn’t about disproving anything but about establishing knowledge. If someone could show some evidence that a god could exist then its possibilities could be explored by science, but until then science has nothing to work with.

and you have no hardd evidence that god does not exist,

As I have no way of proving an infinite number of other fantasies do not exist. The only distinction between fantasy and reality is evidence.

magic is magic your not talking to a peasant from 2 thousand B.C, im speaking of god in the scientific term for an eternal energy conscious that gave birth to mankind and the universe, its possible)

Then show how a god is possible.

i already know what your reply will be and i ask you again,
can you prove that in advance?

I think you have some basics to understand first.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

ok let me just simplify and brake it down nicely for us all right here,


i dont know enough to believe there is or isnt a god,
i dont believe there is no god,
i dont believe there is a god,
i dont claim to be an atheist,
i have no evidence for anything, but i claim nothing to be true,


you believe there is no god,
you believe there is no life after death,
you claim you are an atheist,
you say there is no evidence to prove god exists so you dont believe,
you have no evidence of no life after death, but you believe something you have no evidence for,





you said yourself, you will not believe in anything unless there is evidence, so would you like to give me a list of all the scientific things you believe in and then give evidence for those, i will give you a start and name a few thigns,


no life after death, (prove it)
the big bang, (prove it)
time, (prove it)
gravity is a pull, (prove it)
where the water came from, (prove it)
that we are just machines with no soul, (prove it)
that Qi dosent exist, (prove it)



see what i mean, you most likely believe in those things right?, but yet you have no real evidence, you actually have no real evidence that proves we dont live in a matrix type simulator,

you have to be carefull when you speak of real evidence you will find its alot harder to truley prove something than you first thought,


peace,

 

[Mythbuster]

I think EmptyForceOfChi is agnostic.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I think EmptyForceOfChi is agnostic.

i am nothing, i just assume theorise and philosophise, i dont know anything, i know what i want to be true, (but thats way out there etc), but it dosent make it believeble in my eyes,


what is the definition of a true agnostic then?


i am a agnostic daaoist atheist if you want to get technical,
and ontop of those 3 i dont know anymore, and i dont care to know what i believe it dosent matter, all that matters is i can prove none of you know anything either :just lie me .


but i dont care to know anymore, but it still interests me none the less



peace.

 

[Mythbuster]

what is the definition of a true agnostic then?

I donno.

 

[Cris]

Empty…,

i dont believe there is no god,

Using Boolean algebra that translates into “I believe there is a god”. You need to adjust so you can avoid the double negative.

i dont believe there is a god,

An atheist position, but conflicts with your previous statement that says the opposite.

i dont claim to be an atheist,

It doesn’t matter what you claim or do not claim, if your preceding statement is true then you are an atheist.

you believe there is no god,

False. The disbelief in a proposition is not the same as believing it is false.

you believe there is no life after death,

False. The disbelief in a proposition is not the same as believing it is false.

you claim you are an atheist,

I do not claim, I am an atheist, there is no doubt.

you say there is no evidence to prove god exists so you dont believe,

Close enough.

you have no evidence of no life after death, but you believe something you have no evidence for,

False. The disbelief in a proposition is not the same as believing it is false.

you said yourself, you will not believe in anything unless there is evidence, so would you like to give me a list of all the scientific things you believe in and then give evidence for those, i will give you a start and name a few thigns,

I have a very strong suspicion that evolution is true since there is overwhelming evidence to support it.

no life after death, (prove it)

I have not made that claim.

the big bang, (prove it)

I don’t believe the current evidence is strong enough to conclude the big bang happened.

time, (prove it)

Already proved.

gravity is a pull, (prove it)

Imprecise statement. But the effects of gravity are well documented in science literature.

where the water came from, (prove it)

Turn on a water tap for yourself.

that we are just machines with no soul, (prove it)

Define, quantify and demonstrate a soul first otherwise your question has no meaning.

that Qi dosent exist, (prove it)

Don’t know the guy so can’t say one way or the other.

see what i mean,

Nope.

you most likely believe in those things right?,

Apparently not.

but yet you have no real evidence, you actually have no real evidence that proves we dont live in a matrix type simulator,

But that doesn’t matter if our frame of reference is consistent then a matrix environment becomes our reality.

you have to be carefull when you speak of real evidence you will find its alot harder to truley prove something than you first thought,

I am very aware of the issues of proof and the problems with its absoluteness. Within science the term is rarely used, since matters of proof are elements of logic, whereas science tries to provide best attempt explanations.

 

[Sarkus]

the philosophy and notion/idea of a god for me boils down to a logical possibility and explanation of how the universe came to be,

I agree that God is a logical possibility for everything we see.
And so is a Universe without God.
Given the absolute lack of evidence for God - the existence of God is logically equivalent to something that doesn't exist.
By that I mean that if God does exist then God interracts with this Universe in the same way as something that doesn't exist.

Also, given the infinite number of possible things that are logically equivalent to a non-existent thing, the probability of the existence of any specific one of them is zero.

 

[Qorl]

I don't believe you will take my answer seriously but I'm telling you, believe what you hear. If you a thinker (I know you are) thoughts become alive and you could ''touch'' them.
My faith is not blind and I believe because my thoughts showing me the way as it should be. Let's say I could predict my own future. There is no scientific explanation, because we are in a stone behind the super universal beings. Just believe and go, don't be afraid what other people have to say. Believe in yourself and you will find the way.
You know what is funny?
Because even atheists do the same thing, religion for them is themselves, they are not able to see the bigger picture.
Peace with you and believe.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

I DONT KNOW ABOUT ANY OF YOU....

but, i base my faith on the empirical evidense of the sciences... and the theoritical cosmology that goes with it..

there is nothing in my view.. having studied all the sciences which actually suggests that there is no GOD...

in fact, i would suggest that the evidence tilts towards the idea of applied energy as the means to formation... and that source of energy would be what????

well for thousands of years men have used the word... GOD.

-MT

 

[Cris]

Qorl,

Because even atheists do the same thing, religion for them is themselves, they are not able to see the bigger picture.

It is exactly because they see the bigger picture that they find the god concept foolish and unbelievable. Remember the theist has a closed mind to anything other than a god did it, and does not see anything else, and certainly not the bigger picture.

 

[Cris]

Mosheh,

but, i base my faith on the empirical evidense of the sciences... and the theoritical cosmology that goes with it..

In which case you cannot from that conclude there is a god since none of it points to a god without other more rational alternative explanations.

there is nothing in my view.. having studied all the sciences which actually suggests that there is no GOD...

Or fairies, or lepracauns, or aliens. Who cares? The point that should concern you is that nothing indicates there is a god.

in fact, i would suggest that the evidence tilts towards the idea of applied energy as the means to formation... and that source of energy would be what????

Use the science that you claim to use. The law of conservation indicates energy and matter can neither be created or destroyed - e.g. infinity is the more reasonable conclusion.

well for thousands of years men have used the word... GOD.

Becuase they were ignorant and did not have the knowledge we have now. We no longer need to believe ancient superstitions.

 

[Qorl]

Qorl,

It is exactly because they see the bigger picture that they find the god concept foolish and unbelievable. Remember the theist has a closed mind to anything other than a god did it, and does not see anything else, and certainly not the bigger picture.

You know what I mean, the bigger picture could go both ways, just like straight and gay people. Some straight people can not understand why are other gays, they say it's a sin. The same as gay people didn't understand why I'm not a gay. Gay's ask me why I'm not and I said; I could be your friend but you are not sexually attractive to me at all. They didn't understand and told me that I am open minded straight guy. The same is with religion. I hardy accepting concept of God to and I don't believe I will agree with him in everything.

 

[Cris]

Qorl - I think what you are describing is the often difficult process of seeing another person's point of view. One needs to deliberately make an attempt and many are too obstinate or have their own deep seated beliefs to even attempt that. The end result is more often simply frustrated confrontations.

But I believe it is generally more difficult for the theist to bridge this gap since they have usually been raised under a religious culture and have been indoctrinated to be specifically intolerant of the atheist position. In contrast the atheist has more often than not come from the same religious background and has consciously rejected those views and now has the advantage of both perspectives.

 

[Qorl]

Cris

You're explanation is perfect. Let's put it this way, not everyone is intelligent enough to se both sides.