Tree-hugger spirituality

I experience a spiritual kinship with nature, much more so than with other humans. Nature is what it is, no deception.

I know little of Myss's work, but she knows almost nothing of earth-based spirituality if she so cavalierly dismisses what is either energy work, grounding, a prayer, or a meditative exercise, depending on the individual and/or system in question.

Now, that having been said...

I'd like to participate in this thread fully, but Signal and I have both managed to hurt each other's feelings most thoroughly in the past, both without that intent. I really need to keep up a policy of little-to-no contact, for both my own emotional protection and Sig's.

So I'm bowing out now.
 
I guess I see things differently, because I already hold a stance somewhat similar to hers.
That is, I believe that there is a hierarchy in spiritual expressions, and that the personal ones are higher than the impersonal ones.

That's a point of fundamental disagreement between us I guess, because I see things in precisely the opposite way.

To me, imagining the divine as if it was a person (and hence human) is conceptually anthropomorphic. For some reason it's supposed to be a 'higher' form of religiosity to say that God is non-physical and 'spiritual' than to say that he scratches his butt and and perspires. But at the same time many people hang onto the equivalent psychological anthropomorphism with both hands, refusing to let it go.

Sadly, I sense that there might be an implicit egocentric motive in that, our own attempt to make ourselves into the center of cosmic attention around which everything else rotates. Somehow we become the model and paradigm for ultimate purpose and reality itself. That could turn out to be a spiritually misleading involution and self-involvement in my opinion.

In this sense, relationships with trees (or rocks, or animals) are lesser than relationships with fellow humans; it is only in relationships with those who are our equals or higher than us that our own actions can really be meaningful for us.

Must everything be imagined as hierarchical? Does meaning in our lives really only come from service to superiors?

Or might whatever true spiritual hierarchy exists be rather more subtle than that? Might it be a matter of opening ourselves up to - and progressively realizing - something that's already omnipresent?

I agree that relationships with other people excite many of our human social instincts in ways that interactions with trees and rocks typically don't. We talk to people, we work with them, we love them and care about them in uniquely human ways. And sure, that's obviously a big part of people's desire to imagine the divine as if it were human. People want to bring all of their human faculties to bear in their relationship to the divine.

But does that really imply that the rest of the universe is somehow... spiritually inferior? Empty and bereft? Or do we feel our special kinship with other people simply because we humans have evolved on this planet to interact with others of our own kind in social groups?

Might an argument be made that a good task for us is to expand the scope of our spiritual sensibilities, until we reach a point where we start to sense the spiritual depths in everything that exists, including the supposedly lowly animals, rocks and trees?

Things aren't always what they initially seem and lessons are often found in unexpected places.

If human beings ever progress out into the wider universe (I'm increasingly doubtful that we ever will), I think that we will learn very quickly that our species isn't the universal pattern, the be-all and end-all of reality itself. We will encounter realities that we might not even be able to begin to comprehend.

I just sense it, the fact that reality is incomparably... bigger.. than I am. I feel like it's just hubris, spitting into the wind, to think anything else. But nevertheless, I'm real too, just as real as anything else that exists. I'm a full-fledged integral part of it, even if I can't begin to understand what it is.

And so are all of the rocks and all of the trees, right alongside me. Whatever mystery is in me that accounts for my being, it's in them too. If I was going to express it anthropomorphically, I'd call them my brothers and sisters, my companions... my friends.
 
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Must everything be imagined as hierarchical? Does meaning in our lives really only come from service to superiors?

How else?


Or might whatever true spiritual hierarchy exists be rather more subtle than that? Might it be a matter of opening ourselves up to - and progressively realizing - something that's already omnipresent?

How can one open to the everything, to the omnipresent, if one denies a large spectrum of what one believes there is?


I agree that relationships with other people excite many of our human social instincts in ways that interactions with trees and rocks typically don't. We talk to people, we work with them, we love them and care about them in uniquely human ways. And sure, that's obviously a big part of people's desire to imagine the divine as if it were human. People want to bring all of their human faculties to bear in their relationship to the divine.

A personalist approach doesn't need to end with humans, as if humans were the highest there is, the beauty of the world.

We can imagine humankind as a stage in a spectrum between rocks and God.


Might an argument be made that a good task for us is to expand the scope of our spiritual sensibilities, until we reach a point where we start to sense the spiritual depths in everything that exists, including the supposedly lowly animals, rocks and trees?

Sure. It is sometimes said that a spiritually advanced person sees the divine in everyone and everything (here's a depiction of this principle).


Things aren't always what they initially seem and lessons are often found in unexpected places.

Sure.
 
Im going to hug a tree tomorrow just to see what its like.

I agree.
Anyone who wishes to discuss the subject should at least try hugging a tree.

Sitting underneath a tree, with the branches moving around in the wind, and the shadows playing about on the ground is a very restful thing to do.
Perhaps hugging them is nice too.
 
I agree that relationships with other people excite many of our human social instincts in ways that interactions with trees and rocks typically don't. We talk to people, we work with them, we love them and care about them in uniquely human ways. And sure, that's obviously a big part of people's desire to imagine the divine as if it were human. People want to bring all of their human faculties to bear in their relationship to the divine.

You appear to be on the same page as Dawkins here:

"The economically useful way to model a person is to treat him as a purposeful goal-seeking agent with pleasures and pains, desires and intentions, guilt, blameworthiness. Personification and the imputing of intentional purpose is such a brilliantly successful way to model humans, it's hardly surprising the same modeling software often seizes control when we're trying to think about entities for which it's not appropriate."
 
I agree.
Anyone who wishes to discuss the subject should at least try hugging a tree.

Sitting underneath a tree, with the branches moving around in the wind, and the shadows playing about on the ground is a very restful thing to do.
Perhaps hugging them is nice too.

Enlightening experience.
 
I asked:

Must everything be imagined as hierarchical? Does meaning in our lives really only come from service to superiors?

Signal (rather surprisingly in my opinion) replied:

How else?

It seems to me that whatever meaning our lives have, comes from us. For some of us, it comes from deeper intellectual understanding. For others, from expanding our perceptive aesthetic or spiritual sensibility. For others, from emotional relationships with family and loved ones. For others, from our professional lives. And some people simply internalize other people's purposes as their own. Often its a combination of several of these modes at once.

But in all of these cases, I think that it's the person who is creating the meaning for him or her self, whether they are doing it in response to something external or not.

It even applies to God. A existence of a super-powered space-alien in the sky doesn't really make our lives any more meaningful, unless we believe that it somehow does. In which case, it would be how we incorporate the belief in the rest of our lives that's producing the meaning. (Maybe that's one reason why so many Christians place so much emphasis on faith. It's their meaning-creation process.)

I wrote:

Or might whatever true spiritual hierarchy exists be rather more subtle than that? Might it be a matter of opening ourselves up to - and progressively realizing - something that's already omnipresent?

Signal replies:

How can one open to the everything, to the omnipresent, if one denies a large spectrum of what one believes there is?

That was my point.

I was suggesting that the "hierarchical" aspect can perhaps be found in the progressive process of deepening our spirituality from what some might label a fairly crude stage when it is identified with a mythological heavenly supernatural person, towards an arguably more advanced stage in which transcendence can be felt in all of being, including the rocks and trees of nature all around us.

I'm certainly not denying that transcendence can be found in persons too. If relating to people is easier and psychologically more agreeable for some people, then fine, they can take that path. I don't want to condemn them.

I'm just emphatically disagreeing with Myss' rather foolish assertion that nature mysticism is an inferior and psychologically pathological form of pseudo-spirituality that should be dismissed as an attempted escape from mature responsibility. Frankly, I don't think that Caroline Myss has a clue.
 
Power poles need love too.

I hugged one the other day, just to reassure it that trees aren't getting all the attention.

Not to take away from your joke (or needlessly add to it, if it was not a joke), but it's a different experience than hugging a tree. When one grabs the tree (barefoot the better), one's nerve endings in the bottoms of the feet contact with delicate tree root-ends exposed from underground (out to many yards from the base of the tree, far beyond its leaf drip line).
One is still "in the tree" when one is on the ground, even some distance, from a large tree. One's body-electrics are in contact with the tree's body-electrics.

Though a power pole has had it's roots removed (and its linear cell structure is not soaked in water, but injected with a wood preservative), one would observe a flow of electrical-magnetic force (emanating from the power lines, around the lines, and even into the ground directly under the lines/power pole). Of course this would not be the same structured electrical signal emanating from a live organism, like a live tree. Lightning arrestors are fixed, to ground the pole, so that the pole does not conduct the lightning energy through the poles body.
 
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It seems to me that whatever meaning our lives have, comes from us.

For some of us, it comes from deeper intellectual understanding. For others, from expanding our perceptive aesthetic or spiritual sensibility. For others, from emotional relationships with family and loved ones. For others, from our professional lives. And some people simply internalize other people's purposes as their own. Often its a combination of several of these modes at once.

But in all of these cases, I think that it's the person who is creating the meaning for him or her self, whether they are doing it in response to something external or not.

Fortunately or unfortunately, such a view encompasses and legitimates every view anyone might have, including Myss'.


I'm just emphatically disagreeing with Myss' rather foolish assertion that nature mysticism is an inferior and psychologically pathological form of pseudo-spirituality that should be dismissed as an attempted escape from mature responsibility.

That's not what she said, though, did she?
 
Tree hunting? What's the point in hunting something that can't move?

.....Oh! You meant tree hugging. Sorry about that.....
 
What on earth are you doing hugging a tree?!
This is your idea of a spiritual experience?!
So only certain kinds of expression of affection could lead to spiritual experiences. This is good to know. Even the formal religions seem to leave it very flexible what the specific actions might be where one experiences God or whatever. There have to be limits. We can't just have profound experiences thither and hither.

And I'll tell you why they do that: because there are no true consequences of a mature kind in the interior life when you hug a tree.
God, I would love to see her research.

You get to control what you call your "relationship to God" if you hug a tree.
It is an expression of a desperation to touch the sacred with absolutely no consequences as a result.
See the naive would see her as trying to control the relationship to the sacred.

"Tree-hugger spirituality" isn't just the practice of hugging trees, but refers to the kind of anything-goes spirituality that is very common.
What about disciplined tree huggers?

What do you think about Myss' stance on it?
Do you think she is being too harsh?

She also said....
"Always go with the choice that scares you the most,
because that’s the one that is going to require the most from you. "

~ Caroline Myss ~
So for someone who is very scared (anagram for sacred!!!!) of hugging trees, it might be the right choice, but I will abstain rather than be seen as spiritually wimpy. I will try to hug God and not go through any intermediaries.
 
Caroline Myss is kind of interesting. A short little bio of her is here:

https://www.wisdomuniversity.org/faculty.htm.

Wisdom University is a non-accredited "alternative university" here in the San Francisco bay area. Its credits and degrees aren't recognized by conventional academia, but the school's faculty is kind of an all-star lineup of "new-age" types. Perhaps people interested in that stuff do learn something there, and perhaps Wisdom degrees do have some utility on the new-age lecture circuit.

Myss boasts a PhD, which was awarded by a very similar non-accredited outfit, the former Greenwich University. This school had nothing to do with the British university with the same name in London. This one was located in Hawaii for years, then shifted to an address on Australia's obscure Norfolk Island (where its owner had a home), and was finally shut down by the Australian government after creating a bit of a scandal in that country.

Myss used to position herself as a "medical intuitive" who practiced "energy medicine". Apparently the idea was to help patients by purifying their chakras, aura and chi. She wrote a popular book on the subject that made her famous in alternative healing circles.

More recently she doesn't seem to be emphasizing that kind of stuff quite so much, perhaps because it came dangerously close to medical quackery. Today she's something of a "spiritual teacher", I guess. I don't have a clue what qualifications she has for doing that.

She appears to make a good living at it though, traveling the world.

Her website:

http://www.myss.com
 
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I find it interesting how the reasoning of many posters here is along the lines of an ad personam/ad hominem/ad authoritatem.

I only quoted Myss as a source, not as an authority.
 
I find it interesting how the reasoning of many posters here is along the lines of an ad personam/ad hominem/ad authoritatem.

I only quoted Myss as a source, not as an authority.
I can see how the post after mine is this. I did specifically repond also to substance. I also mocked Caroline Myss, but that is relevent. It seems to me her philosophy is anything goes. I cannot imagine what tradition she could be seen as on orthodox adherent of. She seems to have written books picking and choosing and channeling herself. So if it is true she is against mix and match spirituality, then there is a problem as far as I can tell. This must mean something specific to her and what that is is not clear and not clear from what is in the op or the video. When I facetiously say I would like to see her research, this is because it seems to me she is making sweeping claims about what the spiritual experiences of people must be based on what they do. And frankly the whole category confuses me. Tree huggers is more of a political concept, one usually used by probusiness - read logging companies - against environmentalists. Sure, some vague sense of what some hippies might literally do may have played a role, but is there really a group out there for whom tree hugging is a central ritual? Is she disparaging Wicca, nature based religions, indigenous religions, animists?

My guess is she has something specific in mind, something more specific than anything goes spirituality.

And what is that anyway?

Do members of the major traditions, orthodox ones not see something on the random side in members of other religions?

Was Bhagwan Rashneesh an anything goes guru - since he came up with his own set of techniques and was, it seems to me, influenced by Western psychology?

Other gurus, masters, pastors, etc.?

How about the Buddha? He was certainly informed by traditions, but he came up with his own set of core priniciples, advocated a middle way, as opposed to the extremes of some traditions he learned form. Could he not be seen as being anything goes? It would not have been odd if he was thought to be catering to the less disciplined masses, being unorthodox and anything goes by the leaders of those traditions he was inspired by but separated himself from.

Likewise Jesus. Mohammed?

Is it OK to follow an anything goes person, like these some would and did see these leaders and many would see Caroline Myss, but not to be one?

Is it the hubris involved or potentially involved in the intuition used?

Is unitarianism anything goes to a Baptist? I would think so.

Is Episcopalianism to a Catholic? Sure, they ain't got no Pope. That's a free for all, not basing their practices on the living representative of God.

Is a person who follows the doctrines of the Catholic Church, generally, but without much daily practice beyond nightly prayer and grace with supper less or more anything goes than a Zen Buddhist monk, who spend much of the day 'just sitting' and then tries to answer koans and other challenges from their masters spontaneously? Who is the judge? To a Catholic at least an orthodox one the Zen monk, however committed, is not taking mass, etc., has likely, though not necessarily not accepted Jesus as his or her savior and is basically wasting a lot of time on meaningless activity. To the monk, well, he would likely be encouraged to focus his attention elsewhere than the issue of the anything goesness of Catholics. Though a mass happening over and over might seem rather random to him or her. And why should the Catholics, if any Christians, be seen as somehow less anything goes. Perhaps their idea of a Pope and creation of confession, etc. are anything goes additions, at Luther thought, to a more pure, direct relationship with God?

Dedication and discipline seem not to be the criteria.
Tradition seems not to be the criterion.
And Myss herself only seems to muddy the waters with her own hodgepodge beliefs and assertions. Given her assertions alone, they simply seem like generalizations and not very charitable ones. Given her own beliefs, if she really is being critical of anything goes, they seem hypocritical, which may be beside the point, but then I am even less sure what she could have meant in relation to anything goes criticisms.

I suppose it might be implicit above, but let me be explicit. I find her assuming a specific act is not profound rather silly, given the various acts of the various traditions. Is hugging a tree shallow, but eating bread that represents the body of a dead Jews deep? Walking around a big black stone? Smoking a pipe? Sitting? Taking peyote and sitting in a small space near hot stones? Many traditions, but not all certainly, shift away from ruling out specific acts as non-spiritual or shallow, but rather see how with the right focus, intentions, heart these can be as profound as other acts. Given that she seems to have a hodgepodge spirituality herself and is informed by these traditions and fits nicely in the New Age 'tradition' where it's not the act but rather the state of consciousness, the loving intent, the I-Thou of the encounter, or whatever that counts, frankly she seems to just be pissed off and not really thinking.

And if it is simply a shot at people who do not follow one of the big traditions or any tradition - does she? - who is to judge that these people are anything goesers? Perhaps their choices are perfect, for themselves, or even for people in general. I would guess they do not feel anything goes to them and are likely not anything goes. Most are choosing this and rejecting that in their choices of what they do and who they think. On what ground does one stand on to judge them and know?
 
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Its their business isn't it? Myss is behaving like a jealous woman who hasn't had any physical attention in quite a while, wondering whom everyone if fucking and hating the fact that they do. Or in this case attacking tree huggers who are giving out a little 'something something'. My opinion is that she is deranged if she took the time to write out a rant on something as harmless as hugging a bloody tree. Next she'll be on about people who talk to plants.:rolleyes:
 
I find it interesting how the reasoning of many posters here is along the lines of an ad personam/ad hominem/ad authoritatem.

Isn't that precisely what Ms. Myss was doing? And what you were doing when you agreed with her?

Notice that she isn't criticisng nature mysticism directly. She's criticising the nature mystics' imagined psychological motivations for following that sort of spirituality.

Let's go over it yet another time. She wrote (and you agreed with):

What on earth are you doing hugging a tree?!
This is your idea of a spiritual experience?!

She isn't just expressing her disdain for nature mysticism in the abstract. She's addressing the nature mystic personally. That's ad-hominem by definition.

And I'll tell you why they do that: because there are no true consequences of a mature kind in the interior life when you hug a tree.

In her opinion, nature mystics practice their form of spirituality in order to avoid "true consequences of a mature kind". Their motives are immature and escapist.

You get to control what you call your "relationship to God" if you hug a tree.

It is an expression of a desperation to touch the sacred with absolutely no consequences as a result.

Of course, if the deity that the theist is supposedly having a "relationship" with is just a product of her own imagination, then she gets to control the whole thing, doesn't she?

But if something sacred really is at large in nature, then who's to say that the nature mystic controls it and that there aren't any consequences associated with recognizing it and attuning one's self to it?

Caroline Myss' quasi-psychological attack on nature mystics' motives is dependent upon her own apparent belief that nature mysticism is a fantasy while God actually exists. If that isn't true, then her whole idea falls apart.
 
Caroline Myss' quasi-psychological attack on nature mystics' motives is dependent upon her own apparent belief that nature mysticism is a fantasy while God actually exists. If that isn't true, then her whole idea falls apart.

Agreed, this is a conclusion, but it's not something I aimed for.

This isn't about tree-huggers being wrong and theists being right, or New Age being wrong and traditional religion being right.
It's about a kind of superficial, unilateral spirituality.

I read Myss comments to express a meaning that is standard in discussions on religious epistemology, summarized in the question "How do you know that you're not just imagining all this that you suppose is true about God/spirits and your relationship to them?"

There are what I call "gross theists" - those very open types who keep saying how they have a relationship with God and who talk about it in terms that suggest they and God are "buddies."
I find those theists to be irreverent, and another example of the "expression of a desperation to touch the sacred with absolutely no consequences as a result."

Often when I read texts by theists, I am tempted to exclaim "Thou shall not take the name of thy Lord in vain!"


I noted this early on in this thread:

One thing that I find to be quite common both in organized religion as well as and esp. in the more freestyle kinds of spirituality is that people themselves decide what they are going to consider "spiritual" - and this especially in situations that involve an Other (such as God or other people). By doing so, they get to control what they call their "relationship to God" or "relationship other people", unilaterally imposing their standards as absolute, while not actually allowing that Other to be present in the relationship.
 
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