Translation & Muslims

maybe he is a muslim who is trying to educate someone who is ignorant? say you

Well you have to admit S.A.M. appears to have conceded my points and wants to change the subject.

Since S.A.M. is so interested in Sura 9, I suggest everyone read some of it before we continue.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

This link is a compendium of Muslim texts provided by the University of Southern California. It has 3 translations, YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR. Why don't we ALL read say the first 30 verses and then we can all intelligently discuss what this means and if the 3 translations are significantly different.
 
Notes Around

See post #1595224 for relevant bibliographic information.

PJdude1219 said:

you do know the koran basically states if your not a muslim you should be a christian or a jew right?

I would point to S.A.M.'s post (#22), which notes:

S.A.M. said:

The Quran is a recital which hints at what was given before. It states over and over that there have been previous messages and messengers, and that knowledge is the first step to salvation. That all prophets are from God and we should not discriminate between the prophets.

Or, as author Karen Armstrong explains:

... the Quran insisted that its message was simply a "reminder" of truths that everybody knew. This was the primordial faith that had been preached to the whole of humanity by the prophets of the past. God had not left human beings in ignorance about the way they should live: he had sent messengers to every people on the face of the earth. Islamic tradition would later assert that there had been 124,000 such prophets, a symbolic number suggesting infinity. All had brought their people a divinely inspired scripture; they might express the truths of God's religion differently, but essentially the message was always the same. Now at last God had sent the Quraysh a prophet and a scripture. Constantly the Quran points out that Muhammad had not come to cancel the older religions, to contradict their prophets or to start a new faith. His message is the same as that of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, or Jesus. The Quran mentions only those prophets who were known to the Arabs, but today Muslim scholars argue that had Muhammad known about the Buddhists or Hindus, Australian Aborigines or Native Americans, the Quran would have endorsed their sages too, because all rightly guided religion that submitted wholly to God, refused to worship man-made deities and preached that justice and equality came from the same divine source. Hence Muhammad never asked Jews or Christians to accept Islam, unless they particularly wished to do so, because they had received perfectly valid revelations of their own. The Quran insists strongly that "there shall be no coercion in matters of faith," and commands Muslims to respect the beliefs of Jews and Christians, whom the Quran calls ahl al-kitab, a phrase usually translated "People of the Book" but which is more accurately rendered "people of an earlier revelation" ....

(Islam: A Short History)

We might then look to (Q)'s question—

(Q) said:
So, if the angel Gabriel sent a message to Muhammad ONLY in Arabic, for a religion that is supposed to be spread over the earth, why was it not received in other languages?

—and respond on two points:

(1) It is not clear, barring some evidence to the contrary, that the religion should be spread worldwide unless people around the world choose to accept the Quranic revelation.

(2) If people wish to accept that revelation, they might choose to learn Arabic at some point.​

An aspect of this topic strikes me peculiarly. Part of it is the time we live in, and part of it is that I'm an American, and have thus been hearing for the last six years a flood of irrational and often hypocritical criticisms of Islam. Thus disclaimed, I would note the following:

• Translation issues exist in other Abramic religions. Among Christians you can frequently find arguments about Biblical translations. There are, for instance, some who insist that the King James Version is the only authentic English translation of the Bible. There was an argument about the Revised Standard Version, and also the New RSV that replaced it, as to the authenticity of the translation; the NRSV, as I remember reading, only exacerbated certain disagreements voiced by evangelical conservative Christians. The New American Standard Bible, as I recall, met strong criticism from evangelicals because it places the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) in its own historical context, instead of considering the Hebrew experience a mere precursor to the Christian revelation through Jesus.

• The Bible is translated from a number of languages, while the Quran comes from one. To avoid translation problems with the Bible, one would need to specialize in several ancient languages.

• The Quranic canon was revealed to one prophet, which comparatively helps it escape a certain problem. The Biblical canon was set in the fourth century amid certain inflammatory debates that would see the Church officially adopt a certain belief that would, in later days, be persecuted as a heresy called "docetism"°. Given that the presuppositions in setting the canon include this heresy, how reliable can the canon be?

• The difference between a "Catholic" and "Protestant" Bible is that the latter simply excludes several books because they're too complicated for the Protestant idea of faith.​

I mention these points in large part because the discussion I am accustomed to tends to treat Islam as unique for questions of translation, pretending suddenly that our own homegrown diverse Abramic monotheism—Christianity—is somehow devoid of these questions. It is valuable to bear in mind disagreements between various Christians because it should help us view Islam according to its own diverse contexts. The way I see it, Islam is another redemptive monotheistic faith, and should be regarded no differently.
____________________

Notes:

° docetism — Revolvr's point about the divinity of Jesus should be considered in this sense, too; if Jesus was not fully human, his crucifixion loses its symbolic, and thus redeeming, power. Protestants are not so affixed to this point as Catholic tradition, which persecuted docetism. The Protestant view seems to have no objection that Jesus' sacrifice was purely symbolic in the sense that, being divine, Jesus would be in a position to know what came next. It would be easier to put up with such an end if one knew it wasn't really the end. By that view, one thing Jesus did not endure on the cross was fear. The docetic outlook also complicates God's judgment because it implies that the one thing God still doesn't understand is what it means to be human. Nonetheless, which outlook is "correct"?
 
I am familiar with Karen Armstrong. Her study of comparative religions seems to have lost some objectivity once she became a Muslim apologist. Her statement you provide is simply wrong. So lets look in a little detail.

Armstrong says this: “Constantly the Quran points out that Muhammad had not come to cancel the older religions, to contradict their prophets or to start a new faith. His message is the same as that of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, or Jesus.”

The problem is that Muhammad does contradict Jesus rather severely. The Christian view of Heaven is not a paradise full of eager large breasted virgins (Muhammad’s appeal to the young male apparently). There is no atonement in Islam, nothing salvation is needed for. In Christianity the Fall, “original sin” from the OT results in a state of mankind that requires salvation; the entire concept of humanity is different. Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross at all – someone who looked like Jesus dies in his place. Jesus was just a man – a prophet, not divine. Muslims do not believe the Trinity; they think it is polytheism. One goes to Paradise if they are obedient enough to Allah. In Christianity one is saved by grace. There is no Holy Spirit in Islam. Man was not made in the image of God in Islam. Jesus did not prophesize Muhammad. Jesus speaks of forgiveness and love; Allah speaks of enmity and hate (see 5:14 above) among peoples.

Of course there are more differences. Jesus also says to beware of false prophets who can be identified as false if they contradict what he has said.

So clearly and without a shred of doubt Muhammad conflicts with the New Testament and Islam represents a completely new faith. This is why Islam must declare the Torah and Gospels as forgeries, which I have provided ample evidence for.
 
And how do you know that your idea of Christianity corresponds to the Gospel?

And please do not confuse issues. Islam validates the Taurat and the Injeel, not the Old and New Testaments. Those are two completely different animals
 
Well you have to admit S.A.M. appears to have conceded my points and wants to change the subject.

Since S.A.M. is so interested in Sura 9, I suggest everyone read some of it before we continue.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

This link is a compendium of Muslim texts provided by the University of Southern California. It has 3 translations, YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, and SHAKIR. Why don't we ALL read say the first 30 verses and then we can all intelligently discuss what this means and if the 3 translations are significantly different.

Good, now I have to tell you that this resource is funded and provided by the House of Saud, ie Saudi Arabia and will reflect the Wahabi ideology.

Still, what does, in a nutshell, Sura 9 discuss?

You can if you like read the whole sura and paraphrase the intent in 3 lines.

You can also read Maududi's introduction for the time of revelations of Sura 9

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau9.html
 
Tiassa,

I should comment on and clarify a few other statements you have made. I had already acknowledged that there are some translation differences between various versions of the bible. If you want to see every possible translation for everything, the NETBible is very good. But can you cite a translation difference of any significance? Please consider that translation differences are not the same as interpretation differences.

The few items you mention are differences of interpretation not translation. This includes some differences of opinion in the Manliness vs. Godliness of Jesus. All Christians see Jesus as Divine; there is no translation issue here. The differences between various Christian denominations are primarily that of emphasis, not in core beliefs and not in translation.

When you say “Bible is translated from a number of languages” you leave an impression that is not correct. The New Testament was originally written in only ONE language – Greek. The Old Testament is primarily Hebrew, with some Aramaic.

You say this:

The difference between a "Catholic" and "Protestant" Bible is that the latter simply excludes several books because they're too complicated for the Protestant idea of faith.

Which is completely wrong. There is NO DIFFERENCE in the New Testament between the Catholics and the Protestants. There is a difference in the Old Testament. Around 100 AD Jewish rabbis revised their Scripture and established an official canon of Judaism, which excluded some portions of the Greek Septuagint. The material excluded was not found in Hebrew versions of the Jewish Scripture. When the Bible was canonized almost 300 years later, Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches continued to base their Old Testament on the Septuagint. Protestant reformers in the 1500s decided to follow the official canon of Judaism for the Old Testament rather than the Septuagint, and the excluded material was placed in a separate section of the Bible called the Apocrypha.

When you say the Apocrypha was too complicated for the Protestants, you must also be saying these books are too complicated for the Jews too. Since that’s ridiculous, I conclude you are being disingenuous.

Since you are being disingenuous I see little reason to respond to you further. However I will say that the reason Islam is treated uniquely for questions of translation is precisely because the Muslims make it so, not because non-Muslims want it to be that way. In my opinion there is no problem translating the Qur’an. The whole problem was invented to hide the true contents of the Qur’an.
 
Does anyone have a copy of the Bible in the original language? Aramaic? The language of Jesus?

Is the Old Testament identical to the Torah?

Hmm interesting.

I just looked up the Aramaic bible online and it says that the original name of God in the bible is not Yahweh but according to the book of Ezra (in the Aramaic Bible) it is Elaw (or Allah or Eloh)

It also says the Aramaic Bible is not incorporated into the OldTestament.

What gives? :confused:
 
Last edited:
Muhammed never claimed to devise a fresh approach but a back to basics approach. He wanted people to let go of the frills, the bells and whistles and reduce religious involvement to its common denominator. Faith, charity and tolerance.

"Frills, bells and whistles"?? Which were these, exactly? He doesn't sound very tolerant based on the book he recited. "Love thy neighbour" is too complex, somehow?
 
Good, now I have to tell you that this resource is funded and provided by the House of Saud, ie Saudi Arabia and will reflect the Wahabi ideology.

How odd. You described it as the perfect resource not too long ago. Maybe you don't read your own sources? Or is it something else?
 
One more interesting find: according to this
Rabboni (Ραββουνει)

John 20:16

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. (KJV)

Also in Mark 10:51. Hebrew form rabbi used as title of Jesus in Matthew 26:25,49; Mark 9:5, 11:21, 14:45; John 1:49, 4:31, 6:25, 9:2, 11:8.

In Aramaic, it could be (רבוני).

In Arabic, Rabbi is used to refer to God as in Ya Rabbi

And according to this:

"Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master."

Rabboni is not an Aramaic form of Rabbi, it is from the Hebrew "RB BNI" according to Albert Pike and means "Master of the Builders."

So what is the reference in the Hebrew bible for Rabbi? Is it Jesus or God?

Aaah! these translation issues! :)
 
And how do you know that your idea of Christianity corresponds to the Gospel?

And please do not confuse issues. Islam validates the Taurat and the Injeel, not the Old and New Testaments. Those are two completely different animals

SWEET SAM I am!

Took you long enough to bring up the Injeel and question the validity of the Gospel though. But I'm glad you did.

Folks, the Injeel SAM refers to is the Gospel according to Muhammad (PBUH). You see Muslims like to glibly say they believe in Jesus and the Gospels, and hey, we aren't much different right? This is what SAM was trying to do when he brought up the verse in the Qur'an about the Gospel.

But it isn't the Gospel we think of is it? No, it's the Muslim version which is completely different from what the rest of us think of when we hear Gospel. The Muslim Jesus is diametrically opposite the Christian Jesus as I have illustrated.

Got to hand it to you SAM this fools a lot of people in the West. Even fools people who should know better, like Karen Armstrong.
 
I honestly don't know much about the changes in the Gospel, except what little I have read on this site. :shrug:

Hard to sift through the information without an adequate background, so I could not really say what is what.

And I was under the impression that Christians knew the Gospels had been "adapted" by the Romans?

That Paul's writings are most influential?

That the Old Testament is only a part of the Torah?
 
Point being?

Oh, that point. Of course. "Unreliability".

Speaking of the Injeel, how unreliable is a book no one's ever seen, I wonder.
 
Why is it that every time someone's like "Yo, Muslim dude, could you explain to me why this verse tells Muslims to kill all the Jews?" the Muslim's like "uh, yeah, which translation is that? Because the translator might be confusing the word 'kill' for something else."

WTF.

The translation can be an issue; context is the biggest issue though.

I sometimes cannot be bothered when some matey asks why such and such a verse calls for x, y and z. 9 times out of 10 the person asking already has his mind set on how Muslims have to kill Jews and unbelievers. It is simply a waste of time.

But yeh, context is extremely important. It is absurd for someone to take one verse from the Quran and then say why do Muslims have to kill Jews or unbelievers (completely ignoring the rest of Quran). Some people approach the Quran and Islam like it is a trivial subject, it is not that simple, it is not black and white, hardly anything is. They don’t even understand that Muslims take interpretations of the verses from the Quran (the verse are not taken literally).

Islam places great emphasis on seeking knowledge. Seeking knowledge from the right people. Islam also places great emphasises on developing a relationship with the teacher, a master-student relationship. During the time of the Prophet, His Companions would always go to him for help in understanding the Quran and other teachings. Then those that excelled were granted permission to teach others, this chain has continued till today, 1400+ years. You’ll find scholars and Sufis today that have chains going back centuries, through the Companions and directly to the Prophet. If you visit a true scholar today and ask him about his Ijaza, he will tell you that he was given permission by such and such a scholar, who was given permission by such and such a scholar etc. all the way back to the Prophet. It is the same with Sufi orders, the 4 main orders all have chains leading directly back to the Prophet. These chains and networks are spread all over the World, the Middle-East, the Indian Sub-Continent, Africa, Europe etc.

Nowadays ‘knowledge’ of Islam is widely available through books and the Internet, however they cannot be substituted from learning directly from a Sheikh or Sufi master (tacit vs. explicit knowledge). That could be regarded as a weakness by some but I see it as a strength, first reason being it helps to uphold the authenticity of Islamic teachings.
 
Ghost, I’m glad you joined. Perhaps you can help us understand. SAM seems unwilling to provide any opinion.

I agree with your comments on how Islam is taught. That’s how it should be, insofar as learning as a Muslim. But that doesn’t mean non-Muslims cannot understand the enmity between Islam and other religions.

I have read large parts of the Qur’an, and read commentary by respected Islamic jurists. The impression I get in reading the Qur’an is that people who are not Islamic are cursed and the enemy of Islam, and they are by nature trying to destroy Islam. Yes I could pick out specific verses, but I’m talking about a general theme here, and this theme appears over and over again. It’s as if there are two people in the world, Muslims and non-Muslims forever locked in enmity and hatred between the two.

This is not a translation issue. It does exist. But I also see disagreement within the Muslim community on whether of not violence is appropriate. Certainly bin Ladin goes to great lengths using Qur’an scripture to justify his actions. So violence could be justified depending on your interpretation.

For example one group will say killing of innocents is forbidden. Another group will say that non-Muslims are never innocent. One group will say suicide is forbidden, another will say dying in Jihad is the only way to guarantee a trip to paradise. I also see a great deal of obfuscation. One group will say they believe in Jesus and the Gospels, but hide that they believe the Gospels are forgeries.

So given your valid discussion on how knowledge is gained, why is it there is such a broad range of beliefs? From Religion of Peace to worldwide supremacy and domination through Jihad?

This is a valid question not just irrational criticism, and I am truly trying to understand.
 
You've been refuted, again. :D

Refuted? Where? Lets see.

Sam: oh this book is crap

(Q): Really why?

Sam: See this line here? And this one here? And this one here? Its obviously irrational

(Q): What about the rest of the thousands of lines?

Sam: Oh I haven't read those, these were enough to form an opinion

(Q): Makes perfect sense to me.

Is this an example of atheistic rational thought?
 
Last edited:
SAM, you've lost it. You are not reading other's posts, you are not refuting anything, you are not contributing to this thread.

We are talking translation and interpretation, remember? Start another thread if you are so interested in Sura 9. Personally, I wouldn't go there.
 
SAM, you've lost it. You are not reading other's posts, you are not refuting anything, you are not contributing to this thread.

As I said before, any threads on Islam are derailed by sam and her propaganda, usually by something to do with the thread, but not often.
 
Back
Top