Tomb of Jesus & James Cameron

[Medicine*Woman]

Dunno about MM's French "parts", but the Cameron flick did mention that the Acts of Philip tells of MM's eventual return to Jerusalem.

Of course myth can be born of reality... I can easily envision Jesus (and his Rabbi wife) as primarily political radicals/sect leaders who came from a "regular" family. All the supernatural stuff could easily have been tacked on after the facts. Messiahs were a dime a dozen back then. People were looking for ways to escape religious as well as political oppression. Jesus and crew easily fit the bill, but the movement needed a little extra "oomph".

Some folks are discounting the tomb on the basis that Jesus was a pauper, and wouldn't have been buried in a "middle-class" tomb. Well, it would seem to me that Jesus' family could've been more towards the middle class... Joseph was a craftsman... Jesus had benefactors that helped him fund his road trips, etc.

I still have huge problems with the historicity of Jesus because of ridiculously scant evidence, but I really do find this latest stuff fascinating.

I find it amusing that the film seems to inspire scoffing from BOTH sides. It seems that the only christians that have problems with the possible existence of Jesus' bones, are the literalists (which are the most dangerous kind).

I *do* think that the filmmakers could've gone a little farther-- more DNA comparisons would definitely have strengthened their case.

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M*W: MM's French 'parts' were more or less sanctioned by the RCC, so there is reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of it. If James Cameron is doing the screenwriting, I suppose he can write it any which way he chooses. Astro-theologically speaking, MM (Aquarius) could have 'returned' to Jerusalem (the 'house of bread'), noted by the Sign of Virgo (holding shafts of wheat).

The Gospel of Philip also mentions Jesus 'kissing MM on the mouth.' Astro-theologically speaking, the Sign of Aquarius (the water bearer; also known as John the Baptist) as it approaches the Sun in the February sky, the movements of the signs would appear as if they were brushing up against (the Sun) each other as one would be kissing. Same thing goes for that Judas kiss. The October sky has Scorpio brushing up against the Sun. Jupiter (Peter who was 'jealous') of MM (Aquarius) was told by Jesus (Sun) to 'get thee behind me, Satan.' Satan being the adversary or Jupiter going behind the Sun as in a betrayal of the Sun.

If 'Rabbi' means 'teacher,' it would make sense to me that the zodiac teaches ('logos) the 'study of'. So, you're saying that MM is a Rabbi/teacher? Could be metaphorically.

So what if they find a group of people with similar names? I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family. There may be some real bones in those ossuaries, but there's no way they can be authentic.

I give it another 2000 years and they dig up Jose Miranda's bones, and there will be people out there who believe he was Jesus/God. People need something to believe in, because they don't believe in themselves.

 

[-=T=-]

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M*W: MM's French 'parts' were more or less sanctioned by the RCC, so there is reasonable doubt as to the accuracy of it. If James Cameron is doing the screenwriting, I suppose he can write it any which way he chooses.

<astro-blathersnip>
A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual" -- find out how (s)he feels about astrology. ~Lazarus Long
</astro-blathersnip>

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M*W: So, you're saying that MM is a Rabbi/teacher? Could be metaphorically.

Based on everything that I've read-- New Testament, Gnostic texts, etc.. --It seems reasonable that she was very important as an Apostle, teacher, missionary. It also could be supported by the fact that the (by then) male dominated "church" would want to suppress this, if true. (Nicea, et. al)

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M*W:So what if they find a group of people with similar names? I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family. There may be some real bones in those ossuaries, but there's no way they can be authentic.

Well... If you found a tomb that contained boxes of bones marked: John, Paul, and George... You won't have necessarily found the Beatles tomb.

If there was also a box marked "Ringo"... still kind of "Meh".

However, spose you add another marked "Linda McC" with DNA that rules out a sibling match to the "Paul" bones, and another marked "Julia", and maybe one more marked "Sean"...

Then it makes you stop and think, No?

Your argument of "there's no way they can be authentic" because "I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family", is not really a good one.

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M*Weople need something to believe in, because they don't believe in themselves.

Agreed.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

<astro-blathersnip> A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual"--find out how (s)he feels about astrology. ~Lazarus Long </astro-blathersnip>

Based on everything that I've read--New Testament, Gnostic texts, etc..--It seems reasonable that she was very important as an Apostle, teacher, missionary. It also could be supported by the fact that the (by then) male dominated "church" would want to suppress this, if true. (Nicea, et. al)

Well... If you found a tomb that contained boxes of bones marked: John, Paul, and George... You won't have necessarily found the Beatles tomb.

If there was also a box marked "Ringo"... still kind of "Meh".

However, spose you add another marked "Linda McC" with DNA that rules out a sibling match to the "Paul" bones, and another marked "Julia", and maybe one more marked "Sean"...

Then it makes you stop and think, No?

Your argument of "there's no way they can be authentic" because "I don't believe the Jesus of the NT ever existed, and neither did his family", is not really a good one.

Agreed.

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M*W: I just don't think it is humanly possible to find the bones of Jesus, MM and their relatives. I have a personal friend who is a movie producer who is currently working on a film about Jesus and MM. I've had many discussions with her, and she has also found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. She's interviewed people at the top of the Merovingian dynasty... people who know the truth, and her film is coming out soon. I believe what she is doing, and I believe in what she has learned. There is some truth to the reality of Jesus existing... I just haven't found it myself. That surely doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If Jesus existed, then I'm damn sure MM did, too, but I'm waiting on the evidence--no matter how long it takes. The name of the film (for now) is Bloodline. I want to learn everything I can from her. She's interviewed the actual relatives of Jesus. Still, I'm an atheist until proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be wrong.

 

[-=T=-]

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M*W: I just don't think it is humanly possible to find the bones of Jesus, MM and their relatives. I have a personal friend who is a movie producer who is currently working on a film about Jesus and MM. I've had many discussions with her, and she has also found evidence that Jesus and MM existed. She's interviewed people at the top of the Merovingian dynasty... people who know the truth, and her film is coming out soon. I believe what she is doing, and I believe in what she has learned. There is some truth to the reality of Jesus existing... I just haven't found it myself. That surely doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If Jesus existed, then I'm damn sure MM did, too, but I'm waiting on the evidence--no matter how long it takes. The name of the film (for now) is Bloodline. I want to learn everything I can from her. She's interviewed the actual relatives of Jesus. Still, I'm an atheist until proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be wrong.

*shrug* I'm not as compelled by the Merovingian stuff... but again, myths can be born out of reality. MM going to France as a missionary could've been enough to spark all kinds of claims to the bloodline, even if in fact she ended up going back to Jerusalem to be buried with her husband and his family.

You confuse me. You said in an earlier post that you don't believe that Jesus and his family of the NT ever existed, yet here you say that you believe your friend and that she has found evidence that Jesus and MM existed.

So these relatives of Jesus... were these descendants of Jesus' daughter Sarah (as the French myths go)? or of his son Judah (bones in the "Jesus tomb")?

And wtf does the existence (or not) of a historical Jesus have to do with being an atheist (or not)? Hint: nothing at all.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*shrug* I'm not as compelled by the Merovingian stuff... but again, myths can be born out of reality. MM going to France as a missionary could've been enough to spark all kinds of claims to the bloodline, even if in fact she ended up going back to Jerusalem to be buried with her husband and his family.

You confuse me. You said in an earlier post that you don't believe that Jesus and his family of the NT ever existed, yet here you say that you believe your friend and that she has found evidence that Jesus and MM existed.

So these relatives of Jesus... were these descendants of Jesus' daughter Sarah (as the French myths go)? or of his son Judah (bones in the "Jesus tomb")?

And wtf does the existence (or not) of a historical Jesus have to do with being an atheist (or not)? Hint: nothing at all.

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M*W: You are absolutely right. I DO NOT believe Jesus and MM existed. I can see no logic in any of them existing.

Yes, I am atheistic, and I cannot concede that belief. The romance of the French beliefs are curious, but in reality, they cannot possibly exist.

There are the myths that MM was Jesus' wife and she bore his kids, but I still don't believe he existed. It's really hard to believe something that doesn't make any sense.

Jeruslem is really a non-entity. The 'house of bread' as it were. There's no other meaning than astrotheological. None of these characters existed. NONE OF THEM. That's the truth as far as I can see it!

 

[zira]

Jesus tomb?

1. i think the names Jesus and Maria were quite common at that time.

2. it's not the first believed Jesus tomb to be found.... There is also tomb in Pakistan near the Himalaya said to be the one of Jesus

3. some do even pretend that Jesus survived 33AD and emigrated from Jerusalem to South France, and lived there hiding away from the Romans

4. If Jesus was a spiritual or political rebel leader, maybe a lot of Jewish parents named their sons Jesus, after 33AD and before 70AD, as a expression of quiet protest against the Romans?

 

[w1z4rd]

http://www.discovery.com/tomb

About the show and has info on the evidence.

I just watched "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" and I would say that pretty much looks like the tomb of Jesus. I started watching that with an extremely skeptical mind, and I have come away feeling thats most likely the tomb of Jesus.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Isnt that how religon works?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

http://www.discovery.com/tomb

About the show and has info on the evidence.

I just watched "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" and I would say that pretty much looks like the tomb of Jesus. I started watching that with an extremely skeptical mind, and I have come away feeling thats most likely the tomb of Jesus.

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M*W: From what knowledge about the final resting place of Jesus are you basing your authority on? Are you a biblical archeologist?

 

[w1z4rd]

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M*W: From what knowledge about the final resting place of Jesus are you basing your authority on? Are you a biblical archeologist?

No, but I am also not a Russian cosmonaut either. So? I base it on my own authority about what I know from my own personal research into the early days of Christianity. I have read work from Josephus the Jew, Tacitus, Pliny, The Acts of Phillip. I know about Emperor Constantine and the first and second council of Nicaea. I have read the Gospels of Judas, Mary Maglidin, Thomas etc.

After watching that discovery program I would say the odds are pretty good in my opinion. Have you watched the documentary yet?

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Pretty easy for you to say since it can't be proven that they are or not His bones.

 

[w1z4rd]

Pretty easy for you to say since it can't be proven that they are or not His bones.

I don't know if they can be proven beyond a matter of a doubt, but it sure got me with enough reasonable information for me to seriously consider that to be the tomb of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Think about it,

- Jesus, son of Joseph on the coffin thing (that other word starting with an O is to long)
- Joseph
- Mary
- Mary Magdalen
- James brother of Jesus

All in one family tomb? And when they checked DNA samples the could identify that Mary and Joseph were the father of the Jesus in that family tomb and that Mary Magdalen did not have the same DNA as the other three (wife of Jesus).

There was a whole lot more info, but I am convinced there is more to this story.

 

[BBS]

They did a documentary on those ossuaries a couple years back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the boxes were empty [they were found in 1980]from tomb raiders and could only get a trace of dna and I guess that was hard to retrieve.But than, if they took the bones to be sold for the religious artifact market, why wouldn't they take the ossuaries?

 

[w1z4rd]

They did a documentary on those ossuaries a couple years back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the boxes were empty [they were found in 1980]from tomb raiders and could only get a trace of dna and I guess that was hard to retrieve.But than, if they took the bones to be sold for the religious artifact market, why wouldn't they take the ossuaries?

From what I understand from this documentary:

- One of the ossuaries were taken, The one that says James brother of Jesus. That ended up in a private collection.

- Construction workers found the tomb, not tomb robbers

- The israeli archaeological unit categorized the tomb, and took the ossuaries to a massive warehouse with many others. The one belonging to James went "missing" somewhere until it was found in this private collection.

- The people who took the ossuaries buried the remains in the ossuaries in a marked location.

 

[ggazoo]

This whole thing has already been debunked:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_tomb.htm

 

[w1z4rd]

That doesnt look debunked to me.

Note about qqazoo's dirty source:

CARM is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization whose purpose is to equip Christians and refute error. Learn about biblical Christianity so you can know God better, be more sanctified, and identify false teachings

 

[ggazoo]

That doesnt look debunked to me.

Note about qqazoo's dirty source:

Not exactly sure how that's a dirty source? Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

 

[SnakeLord]

Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

Well, they're kinda unlikely to be impartial... comprende?

 

[w1z4rd]

Not exactly sure how that's a dirty source? Does the fact that it's a Christian site offend you somehow?

Yes. Quote from a real science source debunking it, not some fringe element. I honestly dont trust your source. At all.

 

[ggazoo]

Yes. Quote from a real science source debunking it, not some fringe element. I honestly dont trust your source. At all.

With sciforums being a site that tends to condemn Christianity, I can understand your religious barriers, and you're right, it is a site from a Christian point of view.

However, it's not the only source... it does give due credit from other sources, and I think, based on that, their argument is quite valid.