To those that don't believe
- Thread starter Cyperium
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Cyperium,
Kat
Strange question. Why be angry or disappointed at something that doesn’t exist?
The stories about gods are fairy tales, they lack any credibility. And one would not expect any facts from fairy tales.
What do you mean by “the idea of God”.
But then everything is questionable.
Kat
Well if you sit a twiddle your thumbs all day, your life is probably not worth living. Anything you do above and beyond that is making you life worth living.
Once again, why would a group that belives in God have different answers than those who don't?
Once again, why would a group that belives in God have different answers than those who don't?
I believe in a God for the sake of completness of the logical argument: I cannot prove either that there is a God, nor that there is no God. In such a case, I must assume that there could be a God. Such a belief is not strong, of course.
I think that the concepts of God, as they are provided by religions, are mirroring the psycho-social structure of a certain society -- these concepts are anthropomorphized "versions" of God. And it is this specific anthropomorphization that bothers me -- as those believers wish me to think that this is all there is.
Cyperium,
Tell me something:
Why do you believe in God?
I think that the concepts of God, as they are provided by religions, are mirroring the psycho-social structure of a certain society -- these concepts are anthropomorphized "versions" of God. And it is this specific anthropomorphization that bothers me -- as those believers wish me to think that this is all there is.
Cyperium,
Tell me something:
Why do you believe in God?
Persol said:
In a way, yes. But it is a very weak belief. Very weak. It is there only so much that I don't twitch too much when I read fairy tales.
As for your socks: When something disappears (" ") in my house, I always go by this guideline: "Things don't disappear. I'm sure there is a simple explanation for this. Maybe I left the socks in the laundry room."
So far, this logic never failed me.
It needs to be said:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
Others here have mentioned pixies and similar such entities, but that isn't really needed.
All we need to do is look at the bible itself: There are dragons, unicorns, ghosts, giants, 4 headed creatures with wheels, leviathans, cerberus, talking serpents, and in exekiel there's a big metal flying thing with men inside with flashing multicoloured clothing.
As a return question I'd like to ask you if you believe all of these things exist/ed, and if not, why not- especially as the bible, (the supposed book of god), says they do/did.
Katazia:
One reason for being angry at Him might be (believe it or not) because of the disappointment when they lost their belief.
fadingCaptain:
Logically Unsound:
Persol:
ConsequentAtheist:
SpyMoose:
And I can't say this enough, this isn't a result of a religious education. I went to normal schools and nobody have taught me false images of atheists.
Q25:
Yeah, my belief works the same way. Though I choose to see the facts that say He exists, I guess you see the facts that say He doesn't exist...I say God has a high probability, you say He has not...am I right? So why are we fighting all the time? I think we all have to respect eachothers belief, some people on this forum doesn't hesitate to bring God in a bad light, even mock Him, because they know that the believers take the "hit". I've seen believers try to do the same thing...though it's still the believers that take the "hit". This is *NOT* because the believers are lame and weak, this is because they use "evil against evil", surely a good man will get struck by his own evil. At least that is what I believe.
RosaMagica:
SnakeLord:
Dragons: I don't think so, but maybe they at the time believed they existed, my theory: maybe because they, as we, must have stumbled upon dinosaur sceletons.
Unicorns: I haven't read about any in the Bible, I have no opponion for or against unicorns.
Ghosts: I believe that there are good and bad forces, and some could possibly take the shape as a ghost (simply because that's the closest image that we have of the truth about such entities).
Giants: Don't know, the Bible say it's a mix of angels and humans. I haven't had any personal idea about giants, and because of that haven't considered if they are true or false. I let things come as they come.
4 headed creatures with wheels: This I believe in, but did they really have four heads? I thought they had four faces on one head, and they had eyes that looked both inside themselves and outside, when they move they need not to turn...Because this is more or less describing some kind of 4-dimensional being, I have a tendency to believe it, cause it gave me more insight about what heaven could be like.
The strange look that the man described that saw the vision can have a explanation though and I think that this was because he could only see the truth with his own eyes, as such being a imperfect man he saw the closest thing that the truth could be associated with.
Leviathan: Again, I don't know much about it, seems like it was some kind of sea creature. I haven't yet developed a oppinion about it.
Cerberus: Haven't heard of it.
Talking serpents: Sorry, a no go on this one too.
Big metal flying thing with men inside with flashing multicoloured clothing: Having great trouble to believe that it even exists in the Bible, can you give me the location? Seems worthy of looking up.
Everyone:
Thank you for your replies.
Yes, I find it strange too. Though people do things to God which they would normally do to a person that they hated. Like putting Him in a bad light, exaggerating some property about Him to the point of "mockery".
One reason for being angry at Him might be (believe it or not) because of the disappointment when they lost their belief.
One could get facts even in fairytales, since most of them have a moral teaching. But I believe the teachings of God is different than a ordinary fairy tale. I think there is more credibility to the stories in the Bible than that of a typical fairytale.
The idea that God could exist. That there is "something else". There are facts that indicates this even though they don't prove it.
The truth isn't, though everything else is.
fadingCaptain:
Just about anything. There are alot of things that supports the idea of God. Being aware being one of them.
I think it works both ways.
What if it wasn't supernatural? I don't think anything is supernatural, I just think that we haven't understood it yet (which if we did it would become natural), thus I don't see why we should dismiss something just because it sounds supernatural, or because we don't understand it yet. Actually I think we shouldn't dismiss anything that we haven't understood ourselves. Let it be, let it be, let it be...
Logically Unsound:
This is an example of one that seems to be angry at God.
Persol:
I also had something against religion though I've allways believed in God. But now I feel that religion is good after all, at least Christianity, simply because I haven't studied any other religion that much (well, I haven't exactly studied Christianity, more explored it).
ConsequentAtheist:
I haven't had any Christian education, my father believe in God but my mother is closer to a atheist, so I'm not "manipulated" into belief, I never felt forced to choose sides either, my family has been very good that way. I never heard of Pixies before and cannot relate in any way to him. Maybe if you explained him to me I could give reasons.
SpyMoose:
Let's just say that I got the impression from atheists. I've seen that some that have believed and have become atheists have some kind of anger against God, maybe because they felt disappointment because they had no arguments against other atheists while they were theists themselves. There are more examples than that as to why people can be angry at God allthough they don't believe He exists, though I can't come up with anything right now.
And I can't say this enough, this isn't a result of a religious education. I went to normal schools and nobody have taught me false images of atheists.
Q25:
you GOT it !!
Yeah, my belief works the same way. Though I choose to see the facts that say He exists, I guess you see the facts that say He doesn't exist...I say God has a high probability, you say He has not...am I right? So why are we fighting all the time? I think we all have to respect eachothers belief, some people on this forum doesn't hesitate to bring God in a bad light, even mock Him, because they know that the believers take the "hit". I've seen believers try to do the same thing...though it's still the believers that take the "hit". This is *NOT* because the believers are lame and weak, this is because they use "evil against evil", surely a good man will get struck by his own evil. At least that is what I believe.RosaMagica:
I've allways believed in God, but I've had feelings of disbelief too, and in those times God has showed me His presence in the most fantastic ways. I can't tell them to you though, I hope you understand. I also know how the whole truth within a person can change just because a single detail is added or changed. When I was a child all my thoughts were bound by rules and one time I thought something that was so utterly profound than all of my previous thoughts, this thought was caused by a previous thought and the previous thought was "no one knows what I'm thinking" and the thought I had as a consequence was "I can think absolutly freely, no matter what!" and I felt uplifted, free at last! As I let all my rules down, I started having troubles though (which I'm not going to get into right now) and I realized that thoughts must be hold by rules, so now after ALOT of time, I've succeeded in binding them with rules again, and I now realize that freedom can be achieved BY the rules, not without them.
SnakeLord:
I believe they existed in some way, maybe not because of what they are, but may be images that describes the way they act.
Dragons: I don't think so, but maybe they at the time believed they existed, my theory: maybe because they, as we, must have stumbled upon dinosaur sceletons.
Unicorns: I haven't read about any in the Bible, I have no opponion for or against unicorns.
Ghosts: I believe that there are good and bad forces, and some could possibly take the shape as a ghost (simply because that's the closest image that we have of the truth about such entities).
Giants: Don't know, the Bible say it's a mix of angels and humans. I haven't had any personal idea about giants, and because of that haven't considered if they are true or false. I let things come as they come.
4 headed creatures with wheels: This I believe in, but did they really have four heads? I thought they had four faces on one head, and they had eyes that looked both inside themselves and outside, when they move they need not to turn...Because this is more or less describing some kind of 4-dimensional being, I have a tendency to believe it, cause it gave me more insight about what heaven could be like.
The strange look that the man described that saw the vision can have a explanation though and I think that this was because he could only see the truth with his own eyes, as such being a imperfect man he saw the closest thing that the truth could be associated with.
Leviathan: Again, I don't know much about it, seems like it was some kind of sea creature. I haven't yet developed a oppinion about it.
Cerberus: Haven't heard of it.
Talking serpents: Sorry, a no go on this one too.
Big metal flying thing with men inside with flashing multicoloured clothing: Having great trouble to believe that it even exists in the Bible, can you give me the location? Seems worthy of looking up.
Everyone:
Thank you for your replies.
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Dragons???
Unicorns???
Ghosts???
Talking serpents? (You do know that was actually the Devil, don't you?)
4 headed creatures with wheels? (I hope you aren't talking about Ezekiel because there is no such thing in there)
Leviathans (The Bible speaks of only one, and it may have been a dinosaur)
Cerberus???
Big metal flying.. flashing, multicolored thing?
I suppose you don't know what a vision is, either that or you are somehow blinded because you failed to ridicule the vision in Revelation as well.
Unicorns???
Ghosts???
Talking serpents? (You do know that was actually the Devil, don't you?)
4 headed creatures with wheels? (I hope you aren't talking about Ezekiel because there is no such thing in there)
Leviathans (The Bible speaks of only one, and it may have been a dinosaur)
Cerberus???
Big metal flying.. flashing, multicolored thing?
I suppose you don't know what a vision is, either that or you are somehow blinded because you failed to ridicule the vision in Revelation as well.
A very pertinent point, and one I would be inclined to concur with. Could you imagine the confusion that would be going through the head of an ancient shepherd if he stumbled upon the jawbone of a Trex?
But then by that same token, could you imagine the confusion going through the same man's head when he witnessed an earthquake, or a tornado, or when his friend just stopped breathing? It is no surprise that early day people would assign a benevolent being as the controller of it all - and very often dependant upon the type of environment. For instance: In India, (a place full of elephants), the gods all look like elephants. In South American jungle regions, all gods look like big snakes - which is hardly surprising.
In the Enuma Elish, (the origins of genesis), we see snake gods, scorpion deities/half man-half scorpion servants of the gods and human being looking gods. Norse gods were all sort of... viking looking, and greek/roman gods funnily enough - mainly looked like greeks/romans.
While it's interesting and important to look at the "why's", it is far from needed to pick up an old book and say it's complete fact.
Admittedly unicorns are dependant on which translation you read. However, from memory - the original does imply unicorns.
But either way, how can anyone deny the existence of unicorns? They exist in almost every world culture... (but often called a different name - such as the ki'irin).
But as the phenomenon would suggest, ghosts are witnessable and in most cases physically observable. I would then question why in the entirety of human history- there is not one solid account, not one decent photograph, not one video recording.
I worked with phenomenon such as this for many years, so yes I'm well aware of the amount of 'cases' that exist about such entities - but any honest man will admit there is still nothing even remotely worthy to support the claim.
Known as the nephilim, or anunnaki in Sumerian - they are a prominent feature in the early parts of the bible - the most famous of which would undoubtedly be Goliath. People tell their children all about David and Goliath, but why and how? Do they tell it as a fairy tale or as a piece of solid irrefutable fact? If they tell it as a mere fairy tale - then why does it differ to any other story in the bible - from world floods to crucified saviours?
My apologies, I actually meant 4 faced. Just to keep the flow alive, might I ask you to relate to me what 'faces' they actually had?
Admittedly the sea is a vasly unknown place, full of incredible creatures - from 1 inch big seahorses, to... I dunno.. 50ft? long squid. I will go through the actual text about the leviathan later.
It isn't called a cerberus in the biblical text, but was described in similar manner. As I've mentioned it now, I will certainly do the honour of finding the specific text.
If you've been around long enough to know The Visitor, you'll know his opinion is that the talking serpent in the garden of eden was actually a snake-man who impreganted eve and gave birth to us atheists, while the religious folk are from pure seed.
To most however, the serpent was satan. However, each to their own.
I will quote it, (along with other relevant text), shortly. (if I can remember where it was
)
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Southstar:
So in one instance it's a vision, and in the other it's complete fact? It's strange when you consider that the majority of visitations from god were through dreams - which are no more reliable a source of facts than visions are. Sure, perhaps these people were off drinking melanin from cacti by the bucket load - and ending up with the most insanely bizarre imaginings - but how you think you can instantly ascribe one in a negative manner merely because you don't like it, and class whatever you do like as absolute fact, is beyond me. It is presumptuous and naive.
So in one instance it's a vision, and in the other it's complete fact? It's strange when you consider that the majority of visitations from god were through dreams - which are no more reliable a source of facts than visions are. Sure, perhaps these people were off drinking melanin from cacti by the bucket load - and ending up with the most insanely bizarre imaginings - but how you think you can instantly ascribe one in a negative manner merely because you don't like it, and class whatever you do like as absolute fact, is beyond me. It is presumptuous and naive.
It turned out that I could imagine it... though laughter is no indication of truth or falsity...SnakeLord said:
About earthquakes and so on, these are a effect of consequences that goes entirely out of my reach. God or not God? Since I don't know, I believe it's God (also since they are consequences of consequences since the beginning).
You are right. Though I believe that there can be many things learned with the Bible and I don't know if everything is a fact, though I know that everything isn't a lie - since there are certain historic events that can be backed up (though I can't back up that claim, but that's not the point).
I understand that this was "half-jokingly" but I'm not sure it got through all that well. I must say that I don't think about unicorns that much, they have no special meaning to me. I guess that to children and especially girls they can mean alot, but for me it's simply not something that I think about.
I myself have witnessed such phenomena, one time with several other persons. So I must say that I believe that these things exist, but I don't want to say that much about what they are cause I know that it's beyond my current understanding. I can't say that they only are hallucinations, since I have witnessess. It couldn't have been a illusion either since the room was pitch dark, we were a couple of people inside a very small room (it was more like a closet, but we used it as a room) and had the lights off, it was totally black. Then a light started shining in the upper corner of the room, it was like a flashlight, I knew that this was "something special going on" so I resisted the temptation of switching on the lights, but one of my friends became very afraid and turned the lights on, and the light disappeared (we turned it off after just a couple of seconds when we had seen that there was nothing there that could have made the light).
I think that some parts of the Bible could be interpreted as bringing a message, and some parts are facts, and some parts bring a message and are facts. However, the parts that I am interested in, are the parts that gives a message and also seems to be facts. Since I haven't yet read that much about Goliath, I can't say how much I believe that this is true in comparence to the other stories in the Bible, but I do think that if it isn't facts, then there are a difference in character of them both. The story of David and Goliath, in my mind has the character of a "story" not the character of "fact". Though that is before I have read it and is most surely because there were a comic series of Goliath that I used to read as a child
I know, it's sad isn't it?I think it was one face of a man, then a face of a lion and the two other faces of two other animals. Again, this may show something about it's true nature that was expressed that way in the mind of the observer - maybe that he had tamed the lion or the animals reflected his inability to understand it's true look. I don't know, and don't want to speculate all that much about it...ooohh...just one more then, the faces could have reflected what he was like in the inside.
ok, thank you for being ...I don't know the english word... but I hope you know what I mean.
Thanks again.
I see, in Sweden he is the equivalent of a snake, thus the misunderstanding. Is serpent more like a lizard to you than a snake? This could then be because the "snake" had legs at the time of the garden of Eden.
Ok. Thank you once more then : o )I will quote it, (along with other relevant text), shortly. (if I can remember where it was
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SEE? i told you, i dam told you. ah well, noone cares.
I don't care whether there is or isn't a "God."
To some they would classify me as "atheist." If that makes you feel better, go ahead, use that term.
Reason:
Should I be nice to people around me because "God" said I should or I will go to Hell? Or should I be nice because it is a good thing to do and makes me feel good? Don't know about you but it is my life and I make my decisions based on how I feel. "Almighty Beings" that may or may not exist have no bearing on those decisions and if you need to consult a book to tell you how to live your life... well, let's just say, you need help.
I believe that "God" is just another term for an unexplained entity... probably an alien race from another solar system that appeared here to crude thinking people way back in time. They thought he/she/it was a "God" since they obviously possessed much more power than they did by being airborne and passed the story on verbally for generations. The story, of course, got modified by whoever told it to fit their personal situation. Eventually people began writing things down and thus began stories to entertain, and at the same time, try to give meaning or explanation to how things are in life. Myths, fables & Bibles.
That folks, is how I "see it."
To some they would classify me as "atheist." If that makes you feel better, go ahead, use that term.
Reason:
Should I be nice to people around me because "God" said I should or I will go to Hell? Or should I be nice because it is a good thing to do and makes me feel good? Don't know about you but it is my life and I make my decisions based on how I feel. "Almighty Beings" that may or may not exist have no bearing on those decisions and if you need to consult a book to tell you how to live your life... well, let's just say, you need help.
I believe that "God" is just another term for an unexplained entity... probably an alien race from another solar system that appeared here to crude thinking people way back in time. They thought he/she/it was a "God" since they obviously possessed much more power than they did by being airborne and passed the story on verbally for generations. The story, of course, got modified by whoever told it to fit their personal situation. Eventually people began writing things down and thus began stories to entertain, and at the same time, try to give meaning or explanation to how things are in life. Myths, fables & Bibles.
That folks, is how I "see it."