To theists - On God and the role theists have for non-theists

[wynn]

Here's a question for theists:


Why did God set up the world so that we non-theists have to rely for information about God on people who engage in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, and who preach that engaging in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, is wrong?

 

[kx000]

Who anointed the pope anyways?

 

[wynn]

Why aren't there more replies?

 

[kx000]

I say law of the jungle is the way. Money is on the good honest guy taking charge. You can do what you want to do, and I'll do the same.

 

[Yazata]

Why aren't there more replies?

You addressed your question to theists, and there aren't a whole lot of theists posting here on Sciforums. And your question is a little accusatory and it kind of puts theists on the defensive, and maybe they don't want to go there.

Here's a question for theists:


Why did God set up the world so that we non-theists have to rely for information about God on people who engage in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, and who preach that engaging in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, is wrong?

Theists are human beings and they are subject to all of the weaknesses and evils that human beings are prey to. Just like atheists. (The Christians among the theists would call it 'sin', I guess.)

As a non-theist, I'm not all that driven by a need to have information about God, nor am I inclined to think of my situation as having been set up by God. In truth, I don't believe in God and don't think in those terms.

Meaning that I don't know of any reason why I need to rely on theists, for whatever religious needs I might have. My religiosity leads in an entirely different direction and doesn't seem to intersect with theirs very much at all.

That's not to say that theists haven't been among my spiritual teachers. Some of the most humane, compassionate and centered people that I've ever met have been Christians. Whatever good is in me today is due in some part to their influence. But those kind of people are extraordinary, among Christians and among everybody else as well.

 

[wynn]

You addressed your question to theists, and there aren't a whole lot of theists posting here on Sciforums. And your question is a little accusatory and it kind of puts theists on the defensive, and maybe they don't want to go there.

I am well aware of my direct approach. It is deliberate.
If I am nice, mild, submissive, many people think they can treat me like shit. So I lose. Hence the decision to show some fangs.


Surely you are familiar with stories from the Pali Canon where a person challenges the Buddha or the other advanced beings, and then the Buddha or the advanced beings deliver an enlightening lesson, without resorting to hatred, contempt, guilt-tripping or "You are stupid/sinful/lowly, therefore, I am enlightened/better than you/right."

If the theists truly are as superior as they imply to be, then they should be able to manifest this in a similar fashion as the Buddha did.

Theists are human beings and they are subject to all of the weaknesses and evils that human beings are prey to.

Are they really?

Given the extraordinary claims they make, it would seem they are completely above and beyond any and all human frailty.

As a non-theist, I'm not all that driven by a need to have information about God, nor am I inclined to think of my situation as having been set up by God. In truth, I don't believe in God and don't think in those terms.

Meaning that I don't know of any reason why I need to rely on theists, for whatever religious needs I might have. My religiosity leads in an entirely different direction and doesn't seem to intersect with theirs very much at all.

It grieves me that, according to many theists, we ordinary people are to believe ourselves cut off from all higher knowledge and all higher purpose, and that the only way we may attain them is by blindly subjecting ourselves to whatever theist happens to come along.

I admit that what drives me is conceit - I do believe we ordinary people deserve better than to be cut off from the Absolute Truth. And as the Buddhists say, it is by proper use of conceit that conceit is overcome.

 

[Adstar]

Here's a question for theists:


Why did God set up the world so that we non-theists have to rely for information about God on people who engage in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, and who preach that engaging in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, is wrong?

Simple answer. You can bypass all of them and read the Bible and you can even just ask God about His will personally.

Human beings are human beings so they are known to be faulty when it comes to moral standards. Some people who seek influence and power see religion as just another way to obtaining it. So they join religious bureaucracies to rise up in the ranks but never really care about the actual religion.

It's like having a military dictatorship and people joining the officer training institution to get the political power benefit while not really being interested in war fighting. Spain nearing the end of it's military dictatorship had the highest ratio of generals to troops in the world. A good proportion of those generals never knew what end to hold a rifle let alone lead an army to war.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Neverfly]

Simple answer. You can bypass all of them and read the Bible and you can even just ask God about His will personally.

This is a concept that I find fascinating. Even back in the old days, when I was in the ministry- I shunned telling people this, in spite of the ideas prominence.

How do you ask a "God" a personal question and receive an answer?

Do you hear voices in your head?

Do you suddenly get ideas- as if the answer just seems to come to you? Can this really be attributed to a personal connection with a creator?

 

[SciWriter]

The Pope's butler did it.

 

[Gustav]

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

that is the awesomest thing ever

 

[Adstar]

This is a concept that I find fascinating. Even back in the old days, when I was in the ministry- I shunned telling people this, in spite of the ideas prominence.

And i guess a lot of religious professionals would say as you did. But if a person is really genuine in their seeking and willing to be led by God then God will start to make himself known to that seeker. But again one has got to be willing to be led.

How do you ask a "God" a personal question and receive an answer?

You must have an attitude that your question is the most vial thing for your existence. God has given me His guidance when i have asked questions in a strong emotional state.

Do you hear voices in your head?

I have heard a voice in my head on one occasion. But at other times i will get a message coming over the TV or radio or in a song Or i will just wake up with the answer to my question. Oh about the times i got the message on TV it is not just the Message it was an incredible knowing deep down that something amazing was going to happen and them the message came on the TY in the middle of an Add and then the people and their teaching in question knocked on the front door. I knew who was knocking on my door before i opened it.

Do you suddenly get ideas- as if the answer just seems to come to you? Can this really be attributed to a personal connection with a creator?

Well i woke up one day with the answer to a question that deeply troubled me and caused me to ask God while in tears about the issue. I had no idea how to resolve the question but in the morning i knew the answer.


Also i believe persistence pays. Never expect an answer right away.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Neverfly]

And i guess a lot of religious professionals would say as you did. But if a person is really genuine in their seeking and willing to be led by God then God will start to make himself known to that seeker. But again one has got to be willing to be led.

In other words, accept any possible hint of being led as a sign of God.

You must have an attitude that your question is the most vial thing for your existence. God has given me His guidance when i have asked questions in a strong emotional state.

Recall above- I was a believer in the ministry.

I well remember making that same claim... I based it on how concepts seemed to come to mind sometimes. Other times, I felt I had gotten no answer but chalked it up to his will.

Funny thing: After I stopped believing- nothing changed. My life didn't suddenly go down the tubes, and it didn't get better, either. Everything stayed the same.

I stopped asking God for things- I still got whatever at the same rate I did before... I stopped asking questions- at first I still had concepts occur to me at the same rate; but when I started putting more rational thought into things, making better decisions instead of relying on a God that rate increased. And I had less questions as a result.

 

[Hipparchia]

In other words, accept any possible hint of being led as a sign of God..

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Here's a question for theists:


Why did God set up the world so that we non-theists have to rely for information about God on people who engage in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, and who preach that engaging in lying, cheating, killing, stealing, illicit sex, making empty promises, practicing ill will, is wrong?

as was said..
Why do You rely on theist? (it is you that are giving the authority to a person)
Why can't you find out for yourself? (RTFM)
Why can't you believe that a theist is just as screwed up as the rest of us?

Why aren't there more replies?

you have a history of not listening.
this is a clear case of baiting.



i agree with Adstar..
I came to believe in God as i would ask him a question then i would hear answers from various non-connected sources, tv, listening to others conversations, the occasional crackpot who seemed to randomly address my issue, etc..

the consistency and volume of responses related to my original prayer, convinced me that it is more than just coincidence..

and Neverfly..
just because you abandon religion, doesn't mean God abandons you..to me it would only reinforce my position that God doesn't like religion.

 

[Neverfly]

and Neverfly..
just because you abandon religion, doesn't mean God abandons you..to me it would only reinforce my position that God doesn't like religion.

A faithful answer that I anticipated I'd hear.

Well, I did not abandon God, nor did he abandon me. There is no such entity for these things to happen.

It is not 'more than coincidence,' it's that you're actively looking. Like picking a number as special- then seeing it everywhere- in everything.
What was that movie with Ashton Kutcher?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Well, I did not abandon God, nor did he abandon me. There is no such entity for these things to happen.

you had said that you had believed at one time..and now you don't..
so this statement is just semantics..

It is not 'more than coincidence,' it's that you're actively looking. Like picking a number as special- then seeing it everywhere- in everything.
What was that movie with Ashton Kutcher?

and i think it is a little more than you just quit believing..it sounds like you have had a few bad experiences with it also..

IOW..if you just quit believing you wouldn't be so anti-believing..

 

[Balerion]

you had said that you had believed at one time..and now you don't..
so this statement is just semantics..




and i think it is a little more than you just quit believing..it sounds like you have had a few bad experiences with it also..

IOW..if you just quit believing you wouldn't be so anti-believing..

I never believed, but I would qualify for your definition of "anti-believing".

One does not have to have had a bad experience with religion to be against it.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I never believed, but I would qualify for your definition of "anti-believing".

One does not have to have had a bad experience with religion to be against it.

true enough..

 

[Neverfly]

and i think it is a little more than you just quit believing..it sounds like you have had a few bad experiences with it also..

IOW..if you just quit believing you wouldn't be so anti-believing..

I find religion to be harmful to humanity. It's an opinion.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I find religion to be harmful to humanity. It's an opinion.

so do I..but that still doesn't mean i can't believe in God..

I will join you in any rants against religion..(the organized institution using God to make ppl conform to a certain standard as defined by the administration of said institutions)

to me they tend to circumvent God more times than not..
(see my opinion about what God wants for you, may not be what God wants for me)

If God were to tell you to do something and your pastor (Man) were to tell you to do something else, who would you listen to?

the tendency is to listen to the pastor, not God..
simply because the pastors want the authority to speak for God, and their own humanity causes them to 'flavor' their sermons with such 'listen to me, I'm right' type things.

but then this 'listen to me, I'm right' applies to everyone doesn't it?