To monotheists: Put yourself in our shoes

[greenberg]

Let's take the average John Smith. He wasn't brought up with any religion in particular.

One day, he starts to wonder whether there is a God or not. He asks the people he knows, he goes to the library, reads some books. They tell him to look further, so he does.

He ends up with the various religions telling him this:


The Christians tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Jews tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Muslims tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Hare Krishnas tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!


So what is John Smith to do? Whom to believe? They all say the same thing. They all insist that their religion is the only right one.
He is troubled and confused by this.



Could you monotheists please put yourselves in other people's shoes for a moment?

Could you at least try to imagine what it is like for people who do not yet have any firm religious convictions - what it is like for them to face the claims that you as "believers in God" all present them with?

 

[lightgigantic]

Let's take the average John Smith. He wasn't brought up with any religion in particular.

One day, he starts to wonder whether there is a God or not. He asks the people he knows, he goes to the library, reads some books. They tell him to look further, so he does.

He ends up with the various religions telling him this:


The Christians tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Jews tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Muslims tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Hare Krishnas tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!


So what is John Smith to do? Whom to believe? They all say the same thing. They all insist that their religion is the only right one.
He is troubled and confused by this.



Could you monotheists please put yourselves in other people's shoes for a moment?

Could you at least try to imagine what it is like for people who do not yet have any firm religious convictions - what it is like for them to face the claims that you as "believers in God" all present them with?

You don't find that view in the vedas

In the Rg Veda, perhaps one of the oldest books, god is referred to as Puruhutam (which can linguistically be connected to the english "god") which means "he who is variously invoked/worshipped"

IOW if the person had actually studied the vedas, they wouldn't come to the conclusion that all these religions are saying "only we are right", but rather "we are right"

The actual scenario is not vastly different from the variety of headache remedies of the market - there are literally hundreds of them and they all have similar if not identical ingredients and they all claim that they work - doesn't necessarily mean that anything that is passing itself off as a headache cure is the real thing and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are all equal.

thus it develops more into a discussion of qualifying ingredients and hierarchy
- Aside from vedic analysis, this is also the dynamic that a lot of interfaith dialouge operates on too

 

[greenberg]

But could you please put yourself in John Smith's shoes?
From all sides, religions are threatening him with terrible things if he doesn't believe what they say.

How is he to choose -and soon-?

 

[lightgigantic]

But could you please put yourself in John Smith's shoes?
From all sides, religions are threatening him with terrible things if he doesn't believe what they say.

How is he to choose -and soon-?

here's an audio example

depends how much they are really prepared to investigate a question or simply rely on the ebb and flow of sensationalism

 

[greenberg]

No further replies?

 

[SnakeLord]

He rolls a dice? Listen to your mother?

The problem is that theists don't understand or even recognise the actual question because of their own preformed bias. Look at the first response you got which was nothing more than hindu advertising. Their only actual argument is to use their own specific texts as support of that texts specific claims. "If you read my texts..."

Worthless.

The question only actually makes sense to those that don't have the bias.

 

[greenberg]

The question only actually makes sense to those that don't have the bias.

I could at least try.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you actually need to read the scriptures before asking questions.

e.g. if you were to ask me, I would say, why worry about the road? Its the destination that is important. So whichever philosophy feels right to you, is right.

Not everyone can wear the same hat. But thats okay, there are several different kinds of hats.

 

[greenberg]

e.g. if you were to ask me, I would say, why worry about the road? Its the destination that is important. So whichever philosophy feels right to you, is right.

Not according to statements like:

You have a self centered--and therefore skewed-- perspective on/'understanding' of reality.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1658226&postcount=33

No... cowreckshun prease: "What I'd prefer," and, "what would make it more tolerable to me" is what is irrelevant.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1658299&postcount=37

 

[Positron]

well, I guess i'll take a tab at this. I was john Smith once, but after looking at other religions, I only found one that I got a feeling from. Islam felt fake, and Buddhism fel like more a way of life. Hinduism changes to much, so how much could I really trust.

Anyways, I finally came to Christianity, being an intellectual I went in in a analytical manner, but what the preacher said, it hit me, I felt god for real, he was there, and he was talking to me. So I ran down that aisle, and got saved.

As for my reassurance, I know this one is right because I can feel god. I can't feel anything from other religions, and I still hear god, in fact, I had a conversation with him on my walk to chem II today.

It's hard to describe what it feels like, but I'm sure the christians here know what I mean.

I hope that answers your question, and sorry If i was terribly vague, for clarification on anything, just ask.

 

[madanthonywayne]

He ends up with the various religions telling him this:

The Christians tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Jews tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Muslims tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Hare Krishnas tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

So what is John Smith to do? Whom to believe?]

You do realize that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God? Don't you? Of course, they're all pretty insistent about the importance of their various interpretations of things, such as whether or not Jesus was the son of God, or whether Muhammed was a prophet. But all three worship the God of Abraham.

 

[GeoffP]

Greenberg, I appreciate your stance. It's not easy. Which god? Or, depending on your theistic inclinations, which version? Who's to say?

The Gnostics felt that one could more or less intuit/logic out which belief made the most sense. Personally, I suggest you address each with your innate humanitarianism, and proceed from there. Whatever doesn't suit the essentialities of the Golden Rule can be, in some likelihood, safely discarded. And, right or wrong, you'll still have the satisfaction of knowing you made the kindest choice.



PS: ...wasn't John Smith the head of the Mormons? If you're asking "What is John Smith to do", then I guess I'd answer: pack up his kin and a-head for Utah, where God has left us rifles and a mirror version of select OT books that say we should have more wives.

I apologize to any Mormons offended by the above.

 

[Learned Hand]

You do realize that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God? Don't you?

I think, perhaps, John Jingleheimerschmidt should take an introductory course in research and reading comprehension. You just don't take one cookie recipe and expect all cookies to be the same just because they each start with "flour."

 

[greenberg]

You do realize that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God? Don't you?

As far as I know, they don't think so. And they are willing to back this up with forceful arguments, and have done so in the past as well as in the future.

Last but not least, the Calvinists think that the Catholics worship the wrong God ... and so on.

 

[greenberg]

I think you actually need to read the scriptures before asking questions.

I have read some of them. But long before I read them, I was already aware of the interreligious and intrareligious disputes. Perhaps this significantly shapes the way I understand those scriptures.


Other than that, I would say you are a rather non-typical theist, at least as far as my experience of theists goes.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not according to statements like:

And yet, the same person will be the first to admit that his/her religion "feels" right to him. So why not extend the same courtesy to you?

I have read some of them. But long before I read them, I was already aware of the interreligious and intrareligious disputes. Perhaps this significantly shapes the way I understand those scriptures.

I used to be bothered about stuff like that. Now I've come to realise that people who focus on differences are more insecure in their faith.

Other than that, I would say you are a rather non-typical theist, at least as far as my experience of theists goes.

Probably because people like me refrain from giving an opinion to others on their faith?

 

[Katazia]

Greenberg,

So what is John Smith to do? Whom to believe? They all say the same thing. They all insist that their religion is the only right one.
He is troubled and confused by this.

Could you at least try to imagine what it is like for people who do not yet have any firm religious convictions - what it is like for them to face the claims that you as "believers in God" all present them with?

He should not be confused if he uses “reason” as the basis of his search. The painkiller analogy works to a point but is otherwise fundamentally flawed. All painkillers work despite their differences in ingredients; ignoring perhaps the unusual and exotic non-mainstream offerings. The key here is that there is evidence for these results, but with religions this is not the case. With painkillers the extra ingredients can be tested and examined and a knowledge base of results can be reviewed. With religions there are only claims that offer no methods for substantiation.

He should understand that it isn’t necessarily a matter of which religion to choose or which one is right but whether any of them could be right and realize that all of them might have nothing real to offer. This takes us to SAM’s suggestion that if a philosophy feels right then it is right for you. This might be OK for those who really don’t care if they have found something that is true or not. But I would assume here that our J.Smith might like to discover the truth. Unlike “Positron” who has used his emotions, despite his obvious erroneous assertion that he is analytical, to convince himself that because something felt right that it must be right and is now convinced that he is in communication with a deity.

If J.Smith continues to study religious scriptures will it lead him to a proof that a god exists? It would seem highly unlikely once he realizes that billions of people have studied such texts for thousands of years and none have yet been able to show a proof that a god exists. And “Positron” was convinced by a preacher/salesman and not scripture.

It does not take much further investigation to discover that religious people choose their belief not on any analytical or reasoned study but on an emotional and often a cultural desire to believe their religion is true. Ultimately the religious devotee makes claims like those from “Positron” of a personal revelation, which of course offers no means of verification. They believe not based on reason but on faith, they want it to be true.

If J.Smith seeks truth then he needs to maintain a strong sense of reason, against overwhelming emotionalism aimed against him, and seek an independent proof that a god exists. It seems something of a big stretch of credibility that if such a being, so powerful that it is the creator and designer of everything, that it has left no sign that it exists. It is even less credible to believe that those who use reason are denied communication with a god and only those who forsake reason are rewarded.

Kat

 

[lightgigantic]

Greenberg,

He should not be confused if he uses “reason” as the basis of his search. The painkiller analogy works to a point but is otherwise fundamentally flawed. All painkillers work despite their differences in ingredients; ignoring perhaps the unusual and exotic non-mainstream offerings. The key here is that there is evidence for these results, but with religions this is not the case. With painkillers the extra ingredients can be tested and examined and a knowledge base of results can be reviewed. With religions there are only claims that offer no methods for substantiation.

never encountered a normative or prescriptive description in scripture?

 

[greenberg]

And yet, the same person will be the first to admit that his/her religion "feels" right to him. So why not extend the same courtesy to you?

This is as much as saying "Believe whatever you want" - which flatly contradicts everything religious texts or religionists claim.

If there in fact is only one true God, then going for "what feels right for you" might be the wrong way to proceed.

 

[Adstar]

Let's take the average John Smith. He wasn't brought up with any religion in particular.

One day, he starts to wonder whether there is a God or not. He asks the people he knows, he goes to the library, reads some books. They tell him to look further, so he does.

He ends up with the various religions telling him this:


The Christians tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Jews tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Muslims tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!

The Hare Krishnas tell him: There is only one true God! It is the one that our holy scriptures speak of!


So what is John Smith to do? Whom to believe? They all say the same thing. They all insist that their religion is the only right one.
He is troubled and confused by this.



Could you monotheists please put yourselves in other people's shoes for a moment?

Could you at least try to imagine what it is like for people who do not yet have any firm religious convictions - what it is like for them to face the claims that you as "believers in God" all present them with?

Who says we don't?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days