To Kill for Love

Prince_James said:
Well let me ask this: If a man steals from one, may one steal what he owes back?

I have been stolen from and I did seek to 'steal' it back :)

So that would be a yes. If someone steals from me, I am not 'stealing' it back I am merely returning to myself that which is rightfully mine and BY ANY means.

Again this analogy can be translated to land taken. I am not unsympathetic to the mental state of those wronged, on either side. Being wronged after all is a subjective perception and we are all 'right' as far as we are concerned.

Although the analogy is not as I thought about terrorism.
 
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TheoryOfRelativity:

Do you view that as a case of two wrongs making a right? Or of righting a prior wrong?
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

Do you view that as a case of two wrongs making a right? Or of righting a prior wrong?

Righting a wrong.

I do not regard taking back what is mine as theft, even if I have to kick down a door to do so. In my world people would REALLY need to think twice before deciding to piss on someones bonfire.

(Note this is regards taking from the one who stole from me, not stealing from some one the goods were sold on to, I would NOT do that...that would be wrong)
 
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TheoryOfRelativity:

On the presumption they were innocently buying something, thinking the person selling was selling it from a lawful position?
 
It can be argued that the basic principle of civilization is "Thou shalt not kill." This is not just an arbitrary religious dictum. The essence of civilization--cities as opposed to villages--is lots of people living together and using their energy cooperatively to produce much more than what is necessary for survival. People who don't know each other, people who aren't related. People who have no instinctive reason to trust each other.

Civilization only works if these people don't have to be constantly looking over their shoulders to protect themselves by attacks from their fellow citizens.

Civilization will BREAK DOWN if we can't trust each other. We'll be back in the Stone Age, leading a life obsessed with survival, where every tribe is wary of every other tribe and they are careful not to cross into each other's territory. With a technology and an economy that won't support the existence of six billion people on one planet.

You do not get to kill ANYBODY, EVER, FOR ANY REASON.

Of course there are obvious exceptions that hardly need justification. People who are hopelessly ill, suffering in pain and/or indignity, whose sustenance requires so many resources that it's a drain on their community, and who ask for mercy killing. People who get a rush out of taking risks and want to go into a bare-knuckle fighting ring against each other. Or perhaps even gladiators, I don't have a problem with that even though I would never watch it. As long as it's consenting adults and they're not using assisted suicide as a way to avoid responsibility to their children.

Self-defense? Well it seems obvious to me that if someone is trying to kill you or rape you, he has removed himself from the community of civilized people. Voluntarily removed himself from the jurisdiction of the rules. As a civilized person with a highly ingrained abhorrence for killing, you would of course make every attempt to neutralize the threat without deadly force, but if you have to kill him it doesn't violate the rule against killing because he volunteered to be exempt from it.

Defense of others? Sure. We all have a duty to maintain the structure of civilization, so we all have a duty to ensure that everyone feels safe and doesn't have to expend a lot of energy protecting themselves against each other. So if you see somebody trying to kill somebody else you not only have the right to stop him, you have a duty, to keep civilization from breaking down.

War? Screw all the sophistic arguments about what's fair and not fair in war. War is a total breakdown of civilization. Two nations at war have dropped out of the community and both have declared that the rules no longer apply to them. It's a mess because not everyone in either of those nations agrees with the decision, and it's our duty to save them from their stupid brethren. That probably means that we have the right and duty to kill all of the people in those nations who do agree with the decision. Right now, every nation on earth should be sending its armed forces, into Israel, Lebanon, Somalia, Chechnya, etc., and every other place where people are killing each other en masse. Those troops should be doing two things.

1. Kill all the killers. They have voluntarily removed themselves from civilization, so the rules don't apply. We can kill them all with a clean conscience. And we must do so to cleanse civilization.

2. Remove all the noncombatants. Airlift them, take them in boats, drive them in Humvees, walk them out surrounded by cordons of soldiers and covered by squadrons of helicopters. Yes, even the noncombatants we hate. The Lebanese Shiite families who believe in the cause of Hezbollah but haven't actually performed an act of violence themselves. The Israeli families who root for war but aren't fighting in it. (That might put Israel in a tough spot because isn't everybody there technically in the army and sworn to uphold the orders of the national leaders?) We might have to put some of those people in POW camps because we're not sure if they're ready to rejoin civilization. The ones who keep yelling "death to the Jews" or "death to the Muslims" or "death to America" or "death to the Ethiopians" might have to stay in camp for a good long time and we might have to take their children away to be raised in more civilized surroundings. But we don't get to KILL them because that would be uncivilized! We cannot kill people because of what they say or what they believe, only for what they do. We can restrain them, imprison them, but not kill them.

When we finally cleanse their countries of killers, probably by using WMDs which are okay against people who have voluntarily identified themselves as uncivilized and there's no risk to noncombatants because they're all away at camp, then we can return the civilians. We'll probably have to cordon off huge territories to use as rehabilitation camps and put the less trustworthy civilians through a recivilization process.

This sounds messy but it's better than the way we do it now. It sounds cruel but it's more humane than the way we do it now because the killing is concentrated on the people who believe killing is okay.

The problem is that we can't get the countries who aren't involved in the combat to agree that both sides are wrong. Everybody thinks that their ally is the underdog. I'm sorry, but the first time their ally kills a noncombatant civilian by a deliberate act of violence, whether targeted or just "collateral damage," they've removed themselves from civilization and they're not the underdog any more. They're just all dogs.

Dogs don't get to make the rules. Everybody gets to discipline a bad dog, even if it's not their own dog. It's called "civilization."
 
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Fraggle Rocker:

You contradicted yourself. First you say that we have the right to kill those whom would attempt to kill us, as they have removed themselves from civilizaiton, but then you said we must kill all whom are fighting in the war in Israel and Lebanon. In order to avoid -specifics- of any conflict, let's move away from Israel and Lebanon, and just speak of war in general.

There are two countries. Country A and B.

Country A initiates conflict with country B.

Country B retaliates.

Should country B's soldiers be slaughtered en masse alongside Country A?

Moreover, why do we not have the right to kill those who support the people whom are doing the killing? Their support is crucial to the effort of killing.

Similarly, what right do we have to take anyone's children away for whatever reason if we cannot persecute someone for their beliefs?

Moreover, civilization is found in nations, not in the world. The world does not have civilization, nor is this society global. Therefore, no country has any responsibility whatsoever, to interfere with the society another, and doesn't even -have- to respond even if assaulted.

Also, Fraggle Rocker, you did not reply to the beginning post of this thread. What is your statement on that scenario? That it is not justified to kill someone in exchange for sometihing that would relieve oneself of suffering?
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

On the presumption they were innocently buying something, thinking the person selling was selling it from a lawful position?

Even if they bought the item knowing it to be stolen I would not steal it back from them. I would only see it as rightful to take it back by any means if taking it back from the person who took it from me. I would view that as my right regardless of the laws position. Stealing it back from someone not directly involved with the theft from me would in my mind be unreasonable as they cannot anticipate the 'action' or the source, whereas the thief should be aware there may be repercussions for their actions from their victim.
 
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TheoryOfRelativity:

Why do you feel an obligation not to take it away from them by force, if they had all ready conceded to knowingly buy someone else's stolen property? Doesn't this basically condone and sanction and perhaps even participate in the act? For there are people who make much money off trafficking in stolen cars, for instance, and are they not involved in the process?

Do you think at the very least, that one is more justified in taking back goods from a person who buys stolen goods knowingly than from someone that did not do something knowingly?
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

Why do you feel an obligation not to take it away from them by force, if they had all ready conceded to knowingly buy someone else's stolen property? Doesn't this basically condone and sanction and perhaps even participate in the act? For there are people who make much money off trafficking in stolen cars, for instance, and are they not involved in the process?

Do you think at the very least, that one is more justified in taking back goods from a person who buys stolen goods knowingly than from someone that did not do something knowingly?

The reason I wouldn't do this is that MANY people who regard themselves as decent and law abiding buy stolen goods.

I'll use an analogy here, many animal lovers eat meat yet they would NEVER kill an animal themselves. The reason is they disassociate themselves entirely from the act of killing. Similarly, those that buy stolen goods may never have themselves stolen anything and do not even think about where the item came from etc. Now while this displays ignorance and hypocrisy, I do not think they deserve to endure having their door kicked in and the trauma of 'theft' as ignorance itself is not a crime.

Basically I am more tolerant as to the motivation for buying stolen goods than for the one committing the crime though as you rightly imply without a buyer there is no theft etc.

It is complex
 
TheoryOfRelativity:

Well, as you thought this was originally about terrorism, let's relate it back to a real life situation, shall we.

The Palestinian's had their land robbed by the British, which in turn, bequeathed it to the Jews. You therefore postulate that it would be fine for the Palestinians to wage war against the British, but not to do so against the Jews?
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

Well, as you thought this was originally about terrorism, let's relate it back to a real life situation, shall we.

The Palestinian's had their land robbed by the British, which in turn, bequeathed it to the Jews. You therefore postulate that it would be fine for the Palestinians to wage war against the British, but not to do so against the Jews?

Wasn't it the Jews land prior to the Romans scattering them over the globe? :bugeye:
 
Prince_James said:
You contradicted yourself. First you say that we have the right to kill those whom would attempt to kill us, as they have removed themselves from civilizaiton, but then you said we must kill all whom are fighting in the war in Israel and Lebanon. In order to avoid -specifics- of any conflict, let's move away from Israel and Lebanon, and just speak of war in general. There are two countries. Country A and B. Country A initiates conflict with country B. Country B retaliates. Should country B's soldiers be slaughtered en masse alongside Country A?
Only if they have removed themselves from the community of civilization by slaughtering noncombatants. If the rest of the civilized nations do their duty and send their troops to pulverize the bastards in Country A who started the war, it ends here. Probably some noncombatants will be killed in "the fog of war" but it will be a lot less than if we force poor Country B to take care of the problem by itself. We could probably cut Country B some slack and look the other way while they do the best they can during the wait for our millions of troops to ride to the rescue.
Moreover, why do we not have the right to kill those who support the people whom are doing the killing? Their support is crucial to the effort of killing.
Perhaps you're right. I'm listening. After all, I already agreed that we can kill the leaders of the country who ordered the soldiers to attack. It's just difficult to differentiate between people who are providing "crucial" support to the "effort of killing" and people who are simply swept away temporarily by grief and shouting "kill 'em all," so we should try to err on the side of mercy.
Similarly, what right do we have to take anyone's children away for whatever reason if we cannot persecute someone for their beliefs?
Your ideas are wise. I'll certainly make sure you're invited to the constitutional convention for this new civilization. :)
Moreover, civilization is found in nations, not in the world. The world does not have civilization, nor is this society global.
The world, unfortunately, does have civilization. It happened gradually, but it happened. No nation exists in isolation.
Therefore, no country has any responsibility whatsoever, to interfere with the society another, and doesn't even -have- to respond even if assaulted.
That's the principle on which civilization currently operates, and every few decades it comes closer to destroying itself. Perhaps my suggested new rule is wrong, but the old rule is not working.
Also, Fraggle Rocker, you did not reply to the beginning post of this thread. What is your statement on that scenario? That it is not justified to kill someone in exchange for sometihing that would relieve oneself of suffering?
No one has the right to kill twelve innocent, non-consenting people in order to ease his own suffering. If that right existed, then everyone who suffered could claim the right to kill twelve of us. We would all spend our lives in fear of being killed in such a scenario. We could not trust anyone we didn't know personally. We'd have to devote an inordinate portion of our labor to protecting ourselves and the close friends and relatives we trust from everyone else. No one could trust anyone from the next village. Commerce would break down. No division of labor, no economies of scale beyond village life. It would be the Neolithic Era all over again.

Civilization would indeed break down.

The essence of civilization is that people must not kill each other ever, for any reason. The exceptions are rare and easily agreed to. Killing twelve innocent people because you heard a voice that told you it would make you feel better is not one of those exceptions. That just makes you a clinically insane psychopath like Abraham.
 
"I'm sorry, but the first time their ally kills a noncombatant civilian by a deliberate act of violence, whether targeted or just "collateral damage," they've removed themselves from civilization and they're not the underdog any more. They're just all dogs."

Absolutely right.
 
Fraggle Rocker:

"Only if they have removed themselves from the community of civilization by slaughtering noncombatants. If the rest of the civilized nations do their duty and send their troops to pulverize the bastards in Country A who started the war, it ends here. Probably some noncombatants will be killed in "the fog of war" but it will be a lot less than if we force poor Country B to take care of the problem by itself. We could probably cut Country B some slack and look the other way while they do the best they can during the wait for our millions of troops to ride to the rescue."

You later contradict this and claim that "they are all dogs" if there is any collateral damage. Moreover, what "duty" do these other countries have? It is not their country that is at all involved. No society or civilization connected to them that matters. Similarly, why are "non-combatants" free from persecution in wartime? War is betwixt nations. Nations comprise people. Hence, if you are a member of a nation in war, you are targetted by virtue that the attack is on said nation.

"Perhaps you're right. I'm listening. After all, I already agreed that we can kill the leaders of the country who ordered the soldiers to attack. It's just difficult to differentiate between people who are providing "crucial" support to the "effort of killing" and people who are simply swept away temporarily by grief and shouting "kill 'em all," so we should try to err on the side of mercy."

If we reduced this to the level of two people, and a crowd began to say to the man who assaulted another out of no where "kill him! kill him!" would they not be active supporters? Why not the people who are "swept up"? They support it enough to stand for it and to perhaps give aid in anyway they can. It stands to reason they ought to be able to be targetted.

"Your ideas are wise. I'll certainly make sure you're invited to the constitutional convention for this new civilization. "

Thank you. I would most appreciate that.

"The world, unfortunately, does have civilization. It happened gradually, but it happened. No nation exists in isolation."

Perhaps not an absolute isolation, but a relative one. Does it matter to China what happens in Uruguay? To Tajikistan what happens in Zaire? To Japan what happens in Italy? Unless what happens -does- directly involve a country quite apart from the ones in question, we cannot speak of society or civilization shared by them. The world is civilized, you are correct, in that every nation is now touched, in part, by civilization, but civilization is a phenomena unique to the nations, and it is because all the nations have civilization that "the world has civilization", not that civilization extends across the totality of the world. Moreover, civilization is a fluidic concept, which allows for such degrees, a to make it almost worthless to speak of in terms of a global conception.

"That's the principle on which civilization currently operates, and every few decades it comes closer to destroying itself. Perhaps my suggested new rule is wrong, but the old rule is not working."

Does it really come "closer" to destorying itself? Because even if we've had some pretty bad wars, none of them have ever resulted in anything but temporal disturbances on a world scale. The only foreseeable conflict which could result in world-scale destruction of a tremendous and perhaps irrepairable level, would be a nuclear one, and MAD prevents such from coming to fruition.

"No one has the right to kill twelve innocent, non-consenting people in order to ease his own suffering. If that right existed, then everyone who suffered could claim the right to kill twelve of us. We would all spend our lives in fear of being killed in such a scenario. We could not trust anyone we didn't know personally. We'd have to devote an inordinate portion of our labor to protecting ourselves and the close friends and relatives we trust from everyone else. No one could trust anyone from the next village. Commerce would break down. No division of labor, no economies of scale beyond village life. It would be the Neolithic Era all over again."

So, in essence, it is a principle contrary to those which are enshrined in civilization, and therefore, not to be admitted?

"The essence of civilization is that people must not kill each other ever, for any reason. The exceptions are rare and easily agreed to. Killing twelve innocent people because you heard a voice that told you it would make you feel better is not one of those exceptions. That just makes you a clinically insane psychopath like Abraham."

I would indeed agree that we oughn't kill eachother ever unless there is strong justification for this, such as in defense and various other things we have spoken of.
 
samcdkey said:
"I'm sorry, but the first time their ally kills a noncombatant civilian by a deliberate act of violence, whether targeted or just "collateral damage," they've removed themselves from civilization and they're not the underdog any more. They're just all dogs."

Absolutely right.

also agreed
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

Well, as you thought this was originally about terrorism, let's relate it back to a real life situation, shall we.

The Palestinian's had their land robbed by the British, which in turn, bequeathed it to the Jews. You therefore postulate that it would be fine for the Palestinians to wage war against the British, but not to do so against the Jews?


I would seek justice from those that were directly responsible, ie those specific politicians NOT innocent civilians who had nothing to do with it.
 
TheoryOfRelativity:

How can we say those "innocent civilians" have nothing to do with it, if they live in the country? Their very life there is part of the reason why the Palestinians do not have it and, in affirming it as their home, they make it impossible for the Palestinians to make it theirs.
 
Prince_James said:
TheoryOfRelativity:

How can we say those "innocent civilians" have nothing to do with it, if they live in the country? Their very life there is part of the reason why the Palestinians do not have it and, in affirming it as their home, they make it impossible for the Palestinians to make it theirs.

I had nothing to do with the decision making process, neither did my parents, neither did my grandparents etc etc so on and so forth. Where I was born and live is incidental, I had no say in that either. Thus I am not part of the problem.

If you have a problem with someone take it up with them this is my view.

We can seek to amend the errors of our fore fathers, as we should in humanitarian issues like this, but we do not deserve to die for them.
 
TheoryOfRelativity:

"I had nothing to do with the decision making process, neither did my parents, neither did my grandparents etc etc so on and so forth. Where I was born and live is incidental, I had no say in that either. Thus I am not part of the problem.

If you have a problem with someone take it up with them this is my view.

We can seek to amend the errors of our fore fathers, as we should in humanitarian issues like this, but we do not deserve to die for them. "

Is not failure to act the same thing as acting in support of the failure? That is, if it is wrong that the Jews are in Palestine - which is another subject entirely - are not present Jews who live there, or who move there, responsible by not ceding the land, if it was wrong?
 
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