TIME EXPLAINED (v2.1)

I agree with everything in the text, but unfortunately the idea "explains away" almost everything we think we know about the universe along with the idea of time. It leaves a lot to think about.

Anyway, time is an illusion caused by the ability to use repetitive/circular motion for measuring other motion.

Most of the observable universe is made out of matter interactions that are of circular/orbitic nature - atoms, molecules, solar systems, galaxies etc. Everything that is constant and observable basicly has some kind of an internal orbitlike system. This basicly gives everything properties of time, even though motion is prime as has been said.

It can be speculated that there is a maximum amount for motion that can be achieved in any direction.
Now let's say we have two quarks, one orbiting the other somehow, encopasing it, rotating around it.
If this system comes close to maximum motion, the orbit becomes slower. If it were to remain the same, the orbiting quark would have to surpass the maximum motion during one stage of the orbit. Since we said we nothing ca surpass maximum motion the orbit simply becomes slower by a factor - not surprisingly this factor should have the same "sine/cosine" nature as in SRT. If maximum motion is reached(speed of light) the internal orbit simply stops - "time freezes".

Anyway, it is just an idea.. open for thoughts.

Furthermore, gravity and electromagnetic forces should be explained from scratch too.
Gravity could very well be interconnected with motion.
Motion is energy. Mass is energy. Mass is basicly entangled quarks "motioning" around each other. The higher the energy the faster the "motioning" or simply there are more quark systems. So it's all basicly motion.
So, it could be conceivable that motion causes motion somehow.. All the quarks that earth is made of motion around each other and all this motion somehow causes other quarks to increase their motion towards earth.. Perhaps even through a similar mechanism as above - with maximum motion etc..
This would have an effect on the internal orbits I talked about above..

enough babbling for now :)
vx, you have posed an interesting idea to me.

I look at simple fundamentals and what you pose to me states this:

If I swing an object of a certain mass around another gravitational body it can only orbit of have a velocity of a given amount for that gravity.....hmmmm wording not good but....

The moon for instance is travelling at the only and I mean the only velocity it can travel at for it's given orbit. If for some reason it gained increased velocity it would automatically change it's orbit to suit.....simple physics yes?

correct me if I am mistaken please....

Now given that the orbit is a constant state of accelleration yet maintaining what could be considered as a steady velocity the actual gravitational pull could be a simultaenous result of such a steady state vs accelerating state polarisation of forces.

any way ...you got me thinking...thanks
 
I think this one's good too. Squares A and B are the same colour. No they're not says Cangas. Oh yes they are.



checkershadow-AB.jpg




Whatever. The point of the illusion is to show you how much you take things for granted. Time exists like heat exists, heat isn't some illusion. But it is a derived effect of motion.


I know that one. That's the same illusion that allows deep black colors to be seen on tv screens even though when u switch the set off, all pixels are actually grey!
 
vx220: I didn't mean to leave people thinking time is an illusion. Just a derived effect of motion, as per heat, and heat is no illusion. We experience time, but it isn't quite what people think it is. I've done separate essays on Energy (=stress x volume) and Mass (=motionless momentum), and will soon be doing Gravity, but I'm currently getting a bit sidetracked on space and charge.

QQ: IMHO gravity is a local tension gradient, there is no action-at-a-distance force. If you take two parallel sheets like this = and put some stress in the middle so they look like this <> or this >< you get sideways tension pulling towards the middle. Something like that.

JC: Yes, I think TV is the same sort of thing. What's I've found interesting about the colour perception pictures like the one above is that some people get the illusion back to front. They don't realise that the reality is that the two squares are the same colour, and the illusion is that they're different colours.
 
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a few thoughts from an ameteur.

O.K. You've all given me much to think about...it's been some time since I've visited these in my own thoughts.

Great you've substituted a very complex definiton for the word time. Einstein did the same. It's good to understand what the definition of "time" is. A set of events measured against a set of another events....and so on I suppose. I understand. This doesnt make time an illusion. It helps to define what we are doing when we take a measurment.

The word time can still be used, it's the essence of math. Math is really short hand, for logical thinking. Rather than say "two plus two equals four" we say 2+2=4. The idea is there. Rather then say "it's been some events measured against certain other events, taking into account the relativistic effects of the observer; since I've visited these in my own thoughts" we say "It's been some time since I've visited these in my own thoughts". the idea is still there. I guess that I understand much better now what I'm saying, and we understand each other. That's a good thing too.

I think the real question you seem to be asking is this: is there a reality that is deeper then my experience tells me? If there is, how do I ferret that out? If there is, can I trust my experience? If I can't trust my experience, what can I trust?

This is true for me; there are lots of wierd and strange quantum effects, and many things which seem to be very odd happening below the surface when compared to my "daily " experience. That's just it, these things are oddities. knowing what gravity is (if I could know) doesnt really change my daily experience. This has made it less important for me to know what gravity is.

Having said that how bout this idea, I got this from reading one of Einstiens essays. Gravity is really an effect. More accuratly gravity is my experience of that effect. What effect? The effect of "space/time" being crunched so to speak into "mass/energy". it makes sense to me. space/time is mass/energy.

That's really my intuition talking, I could be wrong. and I am really only an amateur.

Thanks for the forum. I enjoy these chats when I get to have em.
 
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methusala: I think the point we miss is that at the subatomic level things just can't be like the things we experience. An electron has no colour, or heat, or surface, so all our experience-based analogies that depict some little billiard ball just have to be wrong. But there are other things we can experience, like the repulsion of two magnets with our eyes shut, and we can talk about things like Is a crease a thing or a property of a thing? to improve our grasp of the ontological world that underlies out experience. When it comes to gravity, I think I've got it sussed. It really is a tension gradient. Read ENERGY EXPLAINED and MASS EXPLAINED for more info.
 
You've explained time doesn't exist but you haven't explained the mystery of set motion between changes. Velocity measured over a distance equals our experience of time. But what is that distance really? Its relative and subjective to our motion as well. Its a spinning sphere in another spinning sphere.
 
iam:

If time isn't fundamental, it means what we thought was spacetime has to be space. The Universe is in space, if you move through it fast, does it really contract? You might measure it as length-contracted, but that's just you and your time experience, a trick of the light. You know that if some group of people travel through the Universe in three orthogonal directions it doesn't contract to a point. Basically, it means space isn't relative. It's absolute. Hold your hands out a yard apart like you're talking about a fish you caught. That's a distance. It's there. You can step sideways to travel that distance. You just can't do that with time. Space isn't like time. It's objective, not subjective.
 
Right but still our measure of space is still subjective or relative. What is a unit of length? That length is subjective to our experience of it. What is the length of a centimeter from the point of view of a virus? How would it be measured? Its still relative to space.
 
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No iam, it isn't. It that big. And that's it. You can see it, stretch it, step it, it's there. Space is there. Yes you experience it, and some guy passing you at some huge zip might beg to differ, but he can hardly stop to chat about it. And he's travelling through it, so he'll agree that it's there too, even if whoo, gone, you can't agree on the finer points.
 
I do not think that it is correct to claim that time is an illusion or that time does not exist.

The illusion is the concept of time flowing from past through the present into the future.

What Einstein describes (see a post of mine) does not seem to be an illusion.

Can you really claim that the events in your life cannot be ordered using the criteria of before and after? Can you claim that it is impossible to assign numbers such that for two events, a smaller number can be assigned to the one which occured before the other? This ordering is the essence of the concept of time. Can you claim that this ordering is an illusion?

I see nothing illusionary about the mathematics developed by Minkowski.
  • Ignoring Quantum Theory, the laws of physics can be described by equations using three space variables and a time variable. This description is very useful and seems as good or better than any other description. This description is also useful for dealing with Quantum Theory, given a few caveats due to the capriciousness of many (most, all?) quantum entities.

  • With a little finagling of the sign of the time variable, the equations describing the laws of physics can also be viewed as describing the geometry of and objects in a particular 4D space. The mathematics of differential geometry models the laws of physics very well.
It is be best to keep in mind that the Minkowski mathematics is a very useful model, not necessarily some true repesentation of reality (whatever reality means).

The Minkowski model introduces the concept of World Lines, which are 4D space curves reperesenting particle motion. In this view, reality is represented by the geometry of static geometic objects, rather than by particles (or other objects) moving in a 3D space.

The world line concept is considered to have solved a centuries old problem in philosophy. There was much argument about what was meant when one said that some object (animate or inanimate) existed over some period of time.

Can one say that Charlie Brown is the same person today that he was last year or that this book (with some pages missing) is the same book I read yesterday? Obviously, at the molecular level, there are a lot of differences between almost any object today and the so called same object last year (even if the book does not have any missing pages).

Using the world line concept one can say this object and that object share a large set of World lines. One then says that this defines (or at least suggests) what is meant when one says that Charlie Brown is the same person he was last year, or that this object has a continued existence.

Just as the Minkowski mathematics seems to have resolved a philosophical controversy, I beleive that it has been useful in understanding and/or solving some problems for physicists. I do not know enough about theoretical physics to give any examples here. Do not press me farther on this issue.
 
Dinosaur, I'm not sure if you were talking to me but I'll assume you were:

I do not think that it is correct to claim that time is an illusion or that time does not exist.

I hope I'm not. I prefer to say that it isn't fundamental, and isn't what you think it is.

The illusion is the concept of time flowing from past through the present into the future.

Agreed.

What Einstein describes (see a post of mine) does not seem to be an illusion.

Agreed.

Can you really claim that the events in your life cannot be ordered using the criteria of before and after? Can you claim that it is impossible to assign numbers such that for two events, a smaller number can be assigned to the one which occured before the other? This ordering is the essence of the concept of time. Can you claim that this ordering is an illusion?

No.

But the notion of travelling along this ordering is an illusion.

I see nothing illusionary about the mathematics developed by Minkowski. Ignoring Quantum Theory, the laws of physics can be described by equations using three space variables and a time variable. This description is very useful and seems as good or better than any other description. This description is also useful for dealing with Quantum Theory, given a few caveats due to the capriciousness of many (most, all?) quantum entities.

Mathematics is mathematics. There's nothing illusionary about it. It's a tool of the trade. But people do sometimes take it too literally and ascribe real-world properties incorrectly.

With a little finagling of the sign of the time variable, the equations describing the laws of physics can also be viewed as describing the geometry of and objects in a particular 4D space. The mathematics of differential geometry models the laws of physics very well. It is be best to keep in mind that the Minkowski mathematics is a very useful model, not necessarily some true repesentation of reality (whatever reality means).

I agree with the above, though I have a reservation about the words geometry and 4D space because they imply an actual representation of reality.

The Minkowski model introduces the concept of World Lines, which are 4D space curves reperesenting particle motion. In this view, reality is represented by the geometry of static geometic objects, rather than by particles (or other objects) moving in a 3D space.

I do think the world line concept is a step too far. It's not what we see. We see events and motion, not a block universe.

The world line concept is considered to have solved a centuries old problem in philosophy. There was much argument about what was meant when one said that some object (animate or inanimate) existed over some period of time.

I have to say I think it's created a problem.

Can one say that Charlie Brown is the same person today that he was last year or that this book (with some pages missing) is the same book I read yesterday? Obviously, at the molecular level, there are a lot of differences between almost any object today and the so called same object last year (even if the book does not have any missing pages).

Does it matter whether George Washington's axe has had three new heads and two new handles? If it's George Washington's axe, that's what it is, by definition, because George Washington said so.

Using the world line concept one can say this object and that object share a large set of World lines. One then says that this defines (or at least suggests) what is meant when one says that Charlie Brown is the same person he was last year, or that this object has a continued existence.

You can, but again I think this is stretching it.

Just as the Minkowski mathematics seems to have resolved a philosophical controversy, I believe that it has been useful in understanding and/or solving some problems for physicists. I do not know enough about theoretical physics to give any examples here. Do not press me further on this issue.

Maybe we'll have to agree to differ. But do take a look at the strange notion that is a world line. You will never see one out there in the world. And the world is what we fumble to discover in physics.
 
No iam, it isn't. It that big. And that's it. You can see it, stretch it, step it, it's there. Space is there. Yes you experience it, and some guy passing you at some huge zip might beg to differ, but he can hardly stop to chat about it. And he's travelling through it, so he'll agree that it's there too, even if whoo, gone, you can't agree on the finer points.


You don't know if space can overlap, is even finite or if it can be stretched. It just may appear to be finite. If you took a rubberband and noted markers and measured it before and after you stretched it would be different, so your measurement is relative. Meaning that space you assume to be finite isn't a "space" at all but a random unit.
 
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I don't know about the overlapping or the finite space, iam. But when it comes to random units, I'm thinking that I'm here and you're zipping past me, and the portion of space between my outstretched hands can't be two different sizes. We might measure it to be different sizes, but I just don't see how it can be both sizes at once. This makes me think in terms of absolute units, related by the c that we agree to be the same, which pushes me towards an aether. Not the sort that has a wind, but what you're left with if you take the time out of spacetime. See Einstein's Leyden address of 1920.

"...Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only wonld be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable inedia, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it."
 
Curiousity then Chills

Just came upon this site and have enjoyed your postings. It's gratifying to see a community of people exploring the wonders of science, or more broadly natural philosophy. The fact that a person can jump on a spaceship and return some time later to see his son (on Medicare) and a flock of grandchildren wondering who that young man is sends a chill up my spine. It always does when the thought comes to mind. Curiousity is a wonderful gift we have been given. I hope soon to join in your postings if you all woudn't mind.

Dick
 
Testing: Do threads disappear if nobody posts for a while? I want to refer back to older essays in newer essays but can't find them.
 
Modeling the laws of physics using geometry and the World Line concept are models considered isomorphic with reality, not reality itself. Perhaps an analogy with Tic Tac Toe and a simple game might help. The rules of this game are as follows.
  • The Ace through the nine of Spades (or any suit) are laid face up on the table.

  • Two players take turns picking a card. Each obviously sees the cards picked by the other.

  • To win, a player must get three cards which total 15. A two card total like nine & six is not a win.
This game is isomorphic with playing Tic Tac Toe on a 3 by 3 Magic Sqauare.
Code:
8 1 6
3 5 7
4 9 2
If you guide your play by imagining that you are playing Tic Tac Toe on that Magic Square, you will play the other game as well as possible.

Note that a preschooler can learn to play Tic Tac Toe correctly, but might not have the ability to do simple arithmetic. Even knowing simple arithmetic, the preschooler is unlikely to have the logical ability to cope with the other game, which is a bit more abstract that Tic Tac Toe.

The two games are isomorphic. If you think of one to be reality, you would not consider the other to also be reality, only a useful model.

The purpose of models or isomorphicisms is to discover a way to desribe the laws of physics in a manner that is easier to understand and use than dealing directly with reality itself.

Modeling the laws of physics as geometry and the world line concept are useful models. They are isomorphic with reality (to some extent), but no knowledgeable physicist claims that they are realities.
 
Thanks Scott. I'll get back to you properly later Dinosaur, I have to give the wife some "Quality Time" now. Don't let me stop any of you guys doing the same. Well, not to my wife of course. Fit as a butcher's dog!
 
So, what is time? Let’s start by looking up the definition of a second:

Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom. This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0K…

So, a second is nine billion periods of radiation. Now, what’s a period? We know that radiation is basically light, so let’s have a look at frequency:

Frequency = 1 / T and Frequency = v / λ

So frequency is the reciprocal of the period T, and also velocity v divided by wavelength λ. No problem. Flipping things around, we see that period T is wavelength λ divided by velocity v. We know that a wavelength is a distance, a thing like a metre:

The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 of a second...

And we all know that velocity is a distance divided by a time. So a period is a distance divided by a distance divided by a time. The result is another period of time. This definition of time is circular and tells us nothing.
Actually, it's just consistency. You should be very worried if you'd derived that periods were not units of time, starting from the assumption that they were.
And for things to change, something, somewhere, somehow, has to have motion. You don’t need time to have motion. You need motion to have time.
Well, time would be useless to physics if nothing varied over it, and could therefore disappear as a parameter. That's hardly a revelation.
So why do we say things like Clocks slow down as if a clock is something that moves like a car?
"Fast" and "slow" (and their synonyms) are used to describe the rates of processes in general - not just motion. You can talk about a liquid evaporating quickly, or an object absorbing heat slowly. Granted, motion is involved in both these examples, but in neither case is it of direct interest.

Anyway, there's no point arguing about terminology.
That's three Dimensions, with a capital D because we have freedom of movement in those dimensions.
I don't know of a definition of "dimension" that includes "freedom of movement".
The thing you should measure is temperature, which used to be considered a dimension, before the word changed from “measure” to “Dimension” under your feet.
Actually, temperature would still be called a dimension in the sense it used to be. The term has two definitions in common use:

One (in mathematics), denotes the cardinal of any basis of a given vector space (it also appears in related contexts). When physicist talk about "three dimensional space" or "four-dimensional space-time", it means they're modelling space and space-time with three and four dimensional vector spaces, respectively.

The other (in physics) loosely means "quantity" - basically anything with a unit. Length, time, temperature, intensity, energy, volume, mass, acceleration, and power are all dimensions in this sense.
Special Relativity tells us that your relative velocity alters your measurement of space and time compared to everybody else. You increase your relative velocity and space contracts while time dilates by a factor of √(1-v2/c2). If you travel at .99c, space contracts to one seventh of its former size.
Special relativity tells us that the laws of physics are Lorentz invariant. Inevitable consequences of this are that moving processes will slow down and contract in the direction of motion with respect to stationary ones. What space and time do is subject to your definitions of the base units of space and time.
So your trip to a star seven light years away only takes you a year.
It takes seven years as seen in one reference frame, and one year as seen in another.
But physics is about the universe, and in that universe it took you seven years.
You aren't implying a preferred reference frame, are you?
Later Einstein struggled with the Twins Paradox in 1918. He used acceleration from General Relativity as the explanation, but this explanation was erroneous and didn’t account for passing clocks.
Um, the twin "paradox" is a result of faulty logic. It doesn't need an explanation - just the flaw pointed out (in short, the contradiction is reached by applying properties specific to inertial reference frames to a non-inertial reference frame).
When you read the history you can see a slow evolution from the postulate that says the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames of reference.
Evolution to what?
The problem with reference frames is that all our observer velocities are zero
Why is it a problem that all observers are stationary with respect to themselves?
and if you don’t take care the sun goes round the earth.
In a reference frame attached to the Earth and rotating with the Earth, the Sun goes round the Earth once every 24 hours. Why is this a problem?
They don’t explain why the speed of light is always the same.
A consequence of the Lorentz invariance of the laws of physics.

Anyway, no matter what theory anyone comes up with, you can always ask why things are the way they are. Accusing a theory of not explaining and only describing is pointless; every theory has its axioms.
The “speed of light” was always the problem. And it was always the problem because time was always the problem. Because at the speed of light there’s no time left for anything else to happen. It’s why c isn’t really a speed, because you run out of time trying to get there, and if there’s no time, there’s no speed because speed is distance over time.
You're mixing frames. The speed of an object relative to an observer is the distance travelled in the observer's reference frame per unit of time elapsed, again, in the observer's reference frame. You are measuring the distance travelled over the proper time. This gives the space-like component of the Minkowski four-velocity of a particle (which does become infinite for anything travelling at the speed of light).
Velocity is prime. It defines your metres and your seconds. We should talk of it as a fraction of c like in the equations, or by degrees, but not by the things it itself defines.
The definition of length isn't derived from velocity in general - just the motion of light. There's nothing circular about defining the velocity of, say, a car to be the distance it travels divided by the time taken. The unit of distance is not defined by the motion of the car. You're right that, technically, you can substitute the definition of distance into the definition of velocity, but this is of no practical use and doesn't actually say anything new about velocity. Defining the metre as "the distance travelled by light in 1/299792458 seconds" is only done for the convenience of giving c an exact integer value. There aren't any particularly remarkable conclusions to be drawn from this.
We don’t travel in time at one second per second.
For every second that passes, one second certainly passes. I'll let you decide for yourself whether you want to call that "travelling" or not.
they collide at the same location and at the same time whatever their faces say is local time. Local time.
Local time as opposed to what, exactly?
To travel backwards in time we'd need to unevent events, we’d need negative motion. But motion is motion whichever way it goes. You can’t have negative motion.
1) What's "negative motion"? Definition (preferably precise and mathematical), please.
2) How did you conclude that travelling backwards in time would require something that, according to you, is impossible by definition?
 
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