Time Dilation

[*]then you'll still find SR-predicted mutual length contraction and time dilation when you set up inertial reference frames,

They will not be the same values as with SR.

Assume, you have frame A at rest with the ether by chance and B moving v relative to the ether.

A would have absolute 0 time dilation and length contraction.

Yet, B would be length contacted and time dilated relative to the ether.

So, the length contraction and time dilation are absolute and not reciprocal.

Therefore, your view is wrong.

Don't forget that B's clocks are not actually absolutely synchronized with each other, because they have been synchronized by Einstein's synchronization method under the assumption that light propagates at c in the B-frame.

This affects B-frame measurements of the tick rate of A's clocks and the length A's rulers, because you can't make those measurements with just a single B clock. You need at least two B clocks, so their synchronization with each other (or lack of it) affects the measurements.
 
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chinglu:

Right. I thought you wouldn't be able to respond to #267, just as you have failed to respond to my arguments over and over again.



No, he gave his views.



Where? Go through posts #117, #118, #165, #177 line by line and point out any errors or contradictions you can find there. I have invited you over 20 times to do this, and you have never yet started to do it.



See posts #117, #118, #165, #177, where the math is posted in full.



What contradiction?



It is proven wrong in posts #117, #118, #165 and #177, which remain totally unrebutted.

You are no where near me in math.

Pete's views are your views but You can't understand that.

If you carry your answers through, you will get two different answers for Δt' just as Pete did.

So, whether your understand it or, my response to Pete was exactly my response to you.

You both claim an initial condition on a clock and then apply LT.

LT calculates elapsed times since the origins were the same. You then add your spooky at a distance time to the LT calculated elapsed time and claim you have something of interest. You don't.
 
So you agree that in the unprimed frame, the primed clock at x'=k elapses $$\frac{-k}{v\gamma^2}$$ between t=0 and $$t=\frac{-k}{v\gamma}$$, yes?


Not a contradiction, chinglu, but relative measurements. Measurements in different frames don't necessarily agree with each other - you know that, right?

In this case, the relative difference means that you're comparing different intervals.
Both intervals end when x'=k coincides with x=0.
This event is not relative, because that's where the clock of interest is located - everyone agrees that the clock at x'=k reads t'=-k/v as it passes the x=0 marker.

But your starting event is relative:
You say the timer starts when the origins coincide. But this is relative, because the clock of interest is at a different location.
In the primed frame, time is defined by t'. The x and x' origins meet when t'=0, so the origins meet when t'=0 at x'=k.
But in the unprimed frame, time is defined by t, not t'. The x and x' origins meet when t=0, so the origins meet when t=0 at x'=k.

You can't start the timer twice, so you must choose one.
Which is it?
Does the timer start when t=0 at x'=k, or when t'=0 at x'=k?

You are claiming relative measurements on the same Δt' representing the same events?

And, I do not care the start time on the clock. LT calculates elapsed times. I have performed these calculations several times and I never end up with two different answers for t' or t. Both frames agree on my numbers. Do you know why I do not end up with contradictions? Because I am doing it correctly.

Finally, I find it amazing you have two different answer for Δt' and think you are correct.
 
Don't forget that B's clocks are not actually absolutely synchronized with each other, because they have been synchronized by Einstein's synchronization method under the assumption that light propagates at c in the B-frame.

This affects B-frame measurements of the tick rate of A's clocks and the length A's rulers, because you can't make those measurements with just a single B clock. You need at least two B clocks, so their synchronization with each other (or lack of it) affects the measurements.

Synchronization makes no difference. Say one clock had t1 from the unprimed view and another had t2 when the origins are the same. It does not matter. LT is not about times on the clocks. it is about elapsed times.

You calculated two different answers for Δt'. that means your method is in error. LT is invertible. That makes it impossible to arrive at two different answers. This should be obvious.
 
chinglu said:
Say one clock had t1 from the unprimed view and another had t2 when the origins are the same. It does not matter. LT is not about times on the clocks. it is about elapsed times.
If it doesn't matter what times are on the clocks, how do you know about "elapsed" time?
What a muppet.
 
If it doesn't matter what times are on the clocks, how do you know about "elapsed" time?
What a muppet.

If you drive 60 kmh for 60 km, I will conclude your clock elapsed 1 hr. Note how I did not need to know the initial time on the clock.

These concepts can be extremely difficult.
 
chinglu said:
If you drive 60 kmh for 60 km, I will conclude your clock elapsed 1 hr. Note how I did not need to know the initial time on the clock.
Ah, ok. But did you need to know the initial speed of the vehicle, and the distance traveled? In order to use the vehicle speed and distance to calculate elapsed time?
Say I drive any distance at any speed, or an unknown distance at an unknown speed, can I tell how much time "elapses"?

Nope, I can't. And I can't tell the difference between two clocks unless I know the times on the clocks--the initial condition--before I do a Lorentz transformation.
 
chinglu:

You are no where near me in math.

Right. I'm far beyond you.

If you carry your answers through, you will get two different answers for Δt' just as Pete did.

I've carried my answers through in posts #117, #118, #165 and #177, above. You have refuted nothing in any of those posts. I have invited you countless times to go through them line by line and point out any errors, but you cannot do so and will never do so. There are no errors.

---

More to the point, look back at post #264. There, I agreed with you when you finally specified some definite spacetime events.

You had no reply to the questions I asked you in #264, either.

In short, every time I post a substantive rebuttal of your silly claims you have no response. Instead, you just repeat the same thing again.
 
Ah, ok. But did you need to know the initial speed of the vehicle, and the distance traveled? In order to use the vehicle speed and distance to calculate elapsed time?
Say I drive any distance at any speed, or an unknown distance at an unknown speed, can I tell how much time "elapses"?

Nope, I can't. And I can't tell the difference between two clocks unless I know the times on the clocks--the initial condition--before I do a Lorentz transformation.

I need to know v and I need to know the event started when d = 60km which is usually when the origins are the same. That is LT. Most of what you posted above is not LT. I just gave it to you.

I do not need to know the times on the clocks.
 
chinglu:



Right. I'm far beyond you.
:roflmao:



I've carried my answers through in posts #117, #118, #165 and #177, above. You have refuted nothing in any of those posts. I have invited you countless times to go through them line by line and point out any errors, but you cannot do so and will never do so. There are no errors.

Yes there are errors. You used some initial time on the clock. I show from the unprimed frame, you added some time to a unprimed frame clock. That is wrong because the clocks are in sync. I wrote all this before and you do not learn.


More to the point, look back at post #264. There, I agreed with you when you finally specified some definite spacetime events.

You had no reply to the questions I asked you in #264, either.

In short, every time I post a substantive rebuttal of your silly claims you have no response. Instead, you just repeat the same thing again.
Your post #264 had no real questions.

Now, since you have the answers, I reposted my calculations. Since you have been corrected to not add time to unprimed frame clocks when taken stationary, repost your failed math and I will run you into a contradiction. What you have not yet figured out is that your thoughts are the same as Pete's.

So, if you will spend some time thinking perhaps that will help you realize that.

So, provide your math but please do not show me more of the same crank calculations where you are adding time to unprimed frame clocks when taken stationary.
 
chinglu said:
I need to know v and I need to know the event started when d = 60km which is usually when the origins are the same.
You need to know the event "started" when d = 60km? What about the event when d = 0km? Not important?

That is LT.
What is?
Most of what you posted above is not LT. I just gave it to you.
You did?
I do not need to know the times on the clocks.
So, you can measure time with vehicle speed and distance, but "you don't need to know the time" (??)
 
You need to know the event "started" when d = 60km? What about the event when d = 0km? Not important?

What is?

You did?
So, you can measure time with vehicle speed and distance, but "you don't need to know the time" (??)

It is amazing you think you are onto something.

d = 0km is the origin.

If I know the event began at -60km from me, the origin, I know if v =60kh, then my clock will elapse 1 hr. I do not need to know the values on any clock.

LT is about elapsed times.

Why is this confusing you?
 
chinglu said:
If I know the event began at -60km from me, the origin, I know if v =60kh, then my clock will elapse 1 hr. I do not need to know the values on any clock.
So you have a clock that elapses 1 hr, and you don't need to know the value of 1 hr on this clock?

That is a little confusing. No, it's a lot confusing.
 
chinglu:

Yes there are errors. You used some initial time on the clock.

Initially you confused two separate events in spacetime, so that you were using thee events to establish a time interval instead of just two. I showed you in detail for both possible pairs of events what the outcome would be. (See posts #117 and #118, which remain unrefuted by you.)

Post #264 shows clearly that if we use the events you settled on later, there is no conflict between your scenario and special relativity. Post #264 also remains unaddressed by you.

I show from the unprimed frame, you added some time to a unprimed frame clock. That is wrong because the clocks are in sync. I wrote all this before and you do not learn.

Two spatially-separated events that are "in sync" in one frame cannot be "in sync" in any other frame.

This has been pointed out to you over and over again, and you have never addressed the point. You will NEVER say whether you agree with this point or not.

Now, since you have the answers, I reposted my calculations. Since you have been corrected to not add time to unprimed frame clocks when taken stationary, repost your failed math and I will run you into a contradiction.

No need. All the maths is found in posts #117, #118, #165 and #177. Those posts remain unrefuted by you. Once again, I invite you to go through them line-by-line and point out any errors you find there.

I know you will NEVER do this, because there are no errors and you know it.

You're a troll and a waste of my time.
 
chinglu:



Initially you confused two separate events in spacetime, so that you were using thee events to establish a time interval instead of just two. I showed you in detail for both possible pairs of events what the outcome would be. (See posts #117 and #118, which remain unrefuted by you.)

Post #264 shows clearly that if we use the events you settled on later, there is no conflict between your scenario and special relativity. Post #264 also remains unaddressed by you.



Two spatially-separated events that are "in sync" in one frame cannot be "in sync" in any other frame.

This has been pointed out to you over and over again, and you have never addressed the point. You will NEVER say whether you agree with this point or not.



No need. All the maths is found in posts #117, #118, #165 and #177. Those posts remain unrefuted by you. Once again, I invite you to go through them line-by-line and point out any errors you find there.

I know you will NEVER do this, because there are no errors and you know it.

You're a troll and a waste of my time.

You were given the opportunity to post correct equations since I already refuted yours. You refuse.

Now, I reposted my equations and all here can attack them. I have no fear.

Yet after I proved you failed to produce correct math, you choose to leave and quit out of failure.

OK, otherwise, I will give you another chance to fail. Note, if your math is different from mine, then you are wrong.
 
You were given the opportunity to post correct equations since I already refuted yours.

Please don't tell lies. Posts #117, #118, #165 and #177 remain unaddressed by you.

Now, I reposted my equations and all here can attack them. I have no fear.

Already done. See posts #117, #118, #165 and #177.

Yet after I proved you failed to produce correct math, you choose to leave and quit out of failure.

I have invited you to go through posts #117, #118, #165 and #177 and point out any errors, line by line. You cannot and you will not. Because there are no errors.
 
Please don't tell lies. Posts #117, #118, #165 and #177 remain unaddressed by you.



Already done. See posts #117, #118, #165 and #177.



I have invited you to go through posts #117, #118, #165 and #177 and point out any errors, line by line. You cannot and you will not. Because there are no errors.

I explained to you, in #117, you added time to a clock in the unprimed frame whern the unprimed frame is at rest.

Explain that.
 
chinglu said:
Elapsed time.
Ah yes, of course, elapsed time. . .
I am not going to waste my time educating you.
Well, it's prabably more fun just confusing the hell out of me and everyone else.
Muppet shows are meant to be entertaining, though.
 
I explained to you, in #117, you added time to a clock in the unprimed frame whern the unprimed frame is at rest.

It is quite clear in post #117 that no times were "added" to any clocks. Three events are analysed in post #117. The time intervals between pairs of those events are given in both the primed and unprimed frames.

There are no errors in post #117.

Let me ask you a direct yes-no question:

Do you agree that if a frame records a proper time interval between two events, then any other frame will record a longer time interval between the same pair of events?

Yes or no?

I will wait until you answer this question. Until then, I will not be interacting with you any further.
 
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