Thou shalt not annoy on Youth Day

Simon, you are looking for ways to justify bigotry. That is what racists, homophobes and xenophobes do.

It is precisely in the US that I have seen a rather large number of protests. I think it is one of the strengths of the system. That people can nonviolently protest.

Your examples are not parallels. World Youth Day was created by the Pope and the Vatican. It is a promotional project for the church. It is not the equivalent of a gathering of the Levine family or the Ali family in Central Park. This is a large event created by an organization that has to face the fact that it faces criticism in the world. And the individuals going to this event need to accept, in democracies with freedom of speech and assembly, that they will hear criticism of their organization, on occasion at events like this.
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I have never seen people protesting what would obviously be similar to "World Youth Day" in the U.S. And now you want to include variable like abortion clinics so go ahead we can all justify our prejudices with extenuating circumstances.

This is a large event created by an organization that has to face the fact that it faces criticism in the world.
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But there is a time and a place for that. And it is very similar to protesting Jewish people gathering PEACEFULLY. I really dont see where i have the right to do that.

Or even Atheist's. Say i were to believe that Atheism is destroying my country or whichever country i happen to live in, there are people who do believe this. Now when Atheist's and their families gather i am going to go there and be a scumbag. But you would support that?

You do not decide what people should believe in.
 
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John99 said:
Simon, you are looking for ways to justify bigotry. That is what racists, homophobes and xenophobes do.
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No, I am not. That's the tough thing about freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Even people with opinions you abhore get the same rights.

I have never seen people protesting what would obviously be similar to "World Youth Day" in the U.S. And now you want to include variable like abortion clinics so go ahead we can all justify our prejudices with extenuating circumstances.
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I was not justifying my prejudices. I was given examples of people I agree with politically and or ethically and people I disagree with in those ways. This is to show that 1) it happens and 2) I am willing to live with the less pleasant consequences of this. I believe the KKK should be able to organize events and I believe people who dislike the KKK should be able to protest those events. I believe McDonalds should be allowed to have a 'kids day picnic' somewhere and invite kids for fun, games and snacks and for people who think Mcdonald's is a naughty company - as I do - should be able to protest that picnic. Even though the nice little kids are innocent and out for some fun.

But there is a time and a place for that. And it is very similar to protesting Jewish people gathering PEACEFULLY. I really dont see where i have the right to do that.
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If the JDL was having a 'Youth Day' and a group of Palestinians felt that 'JDL' as an organization promoted immoral activities, they should have the right to protest.

Or even Atheist's. Say i were to believe that Atheism is destroying my country. Now when Atheist's and their families gather i am going to go there and be a scumbag. But you would support that?
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Scumbag is too vague a term for me. But yes, if an atheist organization was having an event I would defend the right of protesters to protest that event. Not to spit in people's faces - this was the first scumbag behavior I thought of. And this right has been present for god knows how long.

We are talking about an event put together by a huge organization. We are not talking about picnic where some people who happen to be catholics are being harrassed by protesters.

I don't know where you have been, but protesting organized events has a long history in the US and has been protected.

Also before you accuse me of doing what homophobes, racists and I think it was SS officers do - in a previous post - I hope you will consider for a moment the possiblity that I have stood between homophobes, racists and anti-semites and their targets at protests. In fact this is the case. And the people they have aimed their hate at have ALL on occasion used their rights to protest. If there were protesters saying Catholics were scum I would get pissed off and tell such a protester off. If they had a sign that said 'Catholic Church covered up my son's sexual abuse' I would quietly walk past. I am not sure you are catching the difference here at all. Nor do I think you understand the difference between law and ethics and why these two cannot and should not be the same thing, though they do overlap.

I can abhore the hatred of certain protesters and still want them to have the freedom to protest because otherwise we put the courts and government in the position of deciding who should have the right to protest and who should not. Or who has the right not to be protested against. I think any serious consideration of the ideas the US is based on will see that this is not a role we have, so far, chosen to give to government.
You do not decide what people should believe in.
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No, I don't. Nor in fact do protesters. Even scumbags.
 
actually the KKK is a banned orgainsation i belive:)

And yes the catholic church is a POLITICAL movement not just a religious one. Look at the protests for the De Vinci code for an example, there for they accept the same rules as any other political organisation and that includes the right of people to protest against them.

Then we have the fact that the state is spending money on this event which ALSO intitles people to protest against that.

Further more the inconveniance of all the road closures ect

Not to mention the things the church ITSELF has done.

Basically what your tying to say is that the church can protest against surplying condoms or safe sex campaines or abotion centers but that people cant protest against the church's view on those same issues. What idiocy
 
Asguard said:
actually the KKK is a banned orgainsation i belive:)
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Not in the US. Probably in Germany. I don't think they can be banned. Perhaps in certain specific areas like a college campus. I don't know how much private orgs. have the right to ban organizations. I assume that is complicated. But I don't think the government has or really can issue a general ban on the KKK in the US.
 
To sum up quick:
even as a moral issue
there is a huge difference between protesting with signs agains 'fags'
and
protesting the Catholic Church. In fact many of the protesters themselves may well be Catholics. Disappointed ones.
 
Actually i was refering to australia, after all this is a thread about legislation put in place by a state goverment in Australia:p
 
Simon, your post (#62) makes no sense. But it is just not going to penetrate because to be honest i detect a certain amount of ignorance. I am not saying this is a permanent condition but perhaps you will, someday, learn to be tolerant.

When i was a child, born in another country, my father died when i was four years old. My mother could not take care of me due to emotional reasons. I went to live with a Catholic family in another country all the way up until i was 18. These people took care of me like i was their own son and never forced beliefs on me.

They were not really religious but still they did their own thing and when i was old enough to stay by myself, if they went to church they went on their own because i just liked to be alone or with a small number of friends.

If you want to harass people because their views are different from yours then live your life the way you want but often times these things come back to you. And people just may one day do that.
 
Asguard said:
Actually i was refering to australia, after all this is a thread about legislation put in place by a state goverment in Australia:p
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Ah, but Asguard, I thought you were responding to my mentioning the KKK which was in the context of a tiff between two usamericans. Me, I think, brought it up first there, to as one example amongst many where organizations face protests there. My opponent seems to think this sort of thing, protesting, that is, at peaceful events, is something Usamericans have learned is bad or is not a right. But this is not the case.
 
Also before you accuse me of doing what homophobes, racists and I think it was SS officers do - in a previous post - I hope you will consider for a moment the possiblity that I have stood between homophobes, racists and anti-semites and their targets at protests. In fact this is the case. And the people they have aimed their hate at have ALL on occasion used their rights to protest. If there were protesters saying Catholics were scum I would get pissed off and tell such a protester off. If they had a sign that said 'Catholic Church covered up my son's sexual abuse' I would quietly walk past. I am not sure you are catching the difference here at all. Nor do I think you understand the difference between law and ethics and why these two cannot and should not be the same thing, though they do overlap.
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I couldnt see you sticking up for people who are being harassed. You dont show any signs of such i can tell you i have done that myself for my whole life and being popular with one group by picking on people from another never appealed to me. In fact it turned me off.

The sexual abuse that you guys enjoy bringing up is much, much less than what happens in the school system, just google it and you will see exactly what i mean. And also, the number of priests involved is less than one percent of the total number of priests. Go protest them too. Or even the children being sexually abused every minute of every day by all kinds of people.
 
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John99 said:
Simon, your post (#62) makes no sense. But it is just not going to penetrate because to be honest i detect a certain amount of ignorance. I am not saying this is a permanent condition but perhaps you will, someday, learn to be tolerant.

When i was a child, born in another country, my father died when i was four years old. My mother could not take care of me due to emotional reasons. I went to live with a Catholic family in another country all the way up until i was 18. These people took care of me like i was their own son and never forced beliefs on me.

They were not really religious but still they did their own thing and when i was old enough to stay by myself, if they went to church they went on their own because i just liked to be alone or with a small number of friends.

If you want to harass people because their views are different from yours then live your life the way you want but often times these things come back to you. And people just may one day do that.
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This seems clearly confused to me. I never said anyone 'should' protest anyone. Now you say that you had a good experience with a Catholic family. So have I. Anyone who goes around insulting Catholics for being catholics is no friend of mine. That is all on a personal level.

People who protest against the Catholic church have some sympathy from me. That is also on a personal level.

On a political level, I support their right to protest against the organization. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that this has been a protected right at least all of my rather long lifetime.

you are confusing the personal with the political
the ethical with the legal
people with organizations
and you do not seem to know the laws of your own country. Our country.

I am not the slightest bit surprised that you were treated well by the Catholic family you became a part of. That you raise the issue here in this way says to me you really do not understand the issue.

If I had been posting that Catholics are selfish mean people who always try to convert people, then your story fits as anectdotal evidence against my assertions. But in the context here it simply shows you are confused.

You have now said that my beliefs are like the SS, homophobic, racist and otherwise bigoted and anti-semitic people and that I am ignorant.

And all this coming from someone who is against 'harassing people whose views are different from yours'.

My god, you are acting EXACTLY LIKE THE PEOPLE YOU SEEM TO BE AGAINST.

I am none of these things. You do not seem to understand the issue. Couple this misunderstanding with your insults and false accusations and you clearly belong on my ignore list.

I will read nothing more of what you have to say.
 
the KKK is banned in Australia? i thought you can't ban any kind of political party?
 
Court rejects WYD annoyance laws
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Which is exactly what would happen in the US, even with some of the rather loony religious types on the Supreme Court. Not that I think it would need to get that far. I think a lower court would shut that law down.
 
I still don't see the problem with protests. Scurrilous on the given day, perhaps: but first, Christianity is about goodness and forgiveness. Forgive the protesters, move on. Second: protesting any group should be proportional to the bad faith and/or social issues around that group, and Catholicism is not a perfect organization either, unfortunately.
 
GeoffP said:
I still don't see the problem with protests. Scurrilous on the given day, perhaps: but first, Christianity is about goodness and forgiveness. Forgive the protesters, move on. Second: protesting any group should be proportional to the bad faith and/or social issues around that group, and Catholicism is not a perfect organization either, unfortunately.
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And, as has been pointed out, Catholics have on occasion protested, with no messages from the Vatican or other Catholics, in some general way, saying that this was innappropriate.
 
codanblad actually i think you will find they are banned under the terrioust groups legislation because they have been known to fire bomb black churchs ect in the US

i apologise for not posting this sooner, i missed your post
 
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