Thou shalt not annoy on Youth Day

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Asguard

Kiss my dark side
Valued Senior Member
Thou shalt not annoy on Youth Day

Jano Gibson, Linda Morris and Joel Gibson
Syndey Morning Herald
July 1, 2008


EXTRAORDINARY new powers will allow police to arrest and fine people for "causing annoyance" to World Youth Day participants and permit partial strip searches at hundreds of Sydney sites, beginning today.

The laws, which operate until the end of July, have the potential to make a crime of wearing a T-shirt with a message on it, undertaking a Chaser-style stunt, handing out condoms at protests, riding a skateboard or even playing music, critics say.

Police and volunteers from the State Emergency Service and Rural Fire Service will be able to direct people to cease engaging in conduct that "causes annoyance or inconvenience to participants in a World Youth Day event".

People who fail to comply will be subject to a $5500 fine.

The president of the NSW Bar Association, Anna Katzmann, SC, described the regulations as "unnecessary and repugnant".

The Greens MP Lee Rhiannon said if someone exposed themselves in public, they faced a fine of only $1100 or six months' jail under the Summary Offences Act.

"So if someone flashes a WYD participant they will face a $1100 penalty but if they wear an anti-Catholic T-shirt they could face a $5500 penalty," she said.

A police source said causing an "annoyance or inconvenience" was a highly subjective offence. A police lawyer would define it in layman's terms for operational use by officers.

Civil libertarians said they had never seen anything like the new powers and believed they are more extreme and broader in scope than those used during last year's APEC summit and the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

But the State Government said "World Youth Day is a happy and positive celebration of youth" and "no additional or 'APEC-like' police powers have been granted under the World Youth Day regulations".

The Catholic Church denied it had called for such powers.

The regulations were quietly gazetted by the Deputy Premier, John Watkins, on Friday afternoon and apply to more than 40 city locations, including museums, galleries and cinemas, as well as Darling Harbour, the Opera House, the Harbour Bridge, Randwick Racecourse and parklands.

More than 500 schools across Sydney and 35 train and bus stations have also been listed as "declared areas". People entering them will be subject to vehicle and baggage searches that require them to remove jackets, gloves, shoes and headwear if requested. "Reasonable force may be used to effect the person's exclusion" if they do not permit the search, the regulations stipulate.

The Government's World Youth Day spokeswoman, Kristina Keneally, said "bag checks are a sensible safety precaution which any young person who is going to a major event in Australia … would expect". Everyone had the right to protest so long as it was "peaceful and lawful".

The president of the NSW Council of Civil Liberties, Cameron Murphy, said the broad meaning of "causes annoyance" had the potential to encompass any activity. "This sort of amendment is extreme, unnecessary and is likely to escalate conflict when officers issue directions," he said. "People are going to be unaware that they have the power to do this and will find themselves in court facing an enormous fine."

Ms Katzmann said: "The mere presence in the vicinity of a person wearing the apparel or insignia of another religion might be annoying or inconvenient to a participant in a World Youth Day event."

Ms Rhiannon said the regulations were about "shutting down protests and quarantining the Pope and visiting Catholics away from messages World Youth Day authorities don't approve of".
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So victoms and surporters of abuse victoms could be stoped from protesting, gays protesting about the catholic church could be thrown in jail.

Welcome to the US:(
 
I support it too. If its supposed to be a happy and joyous day, you don't want it ruined by people hissing at you because they have different beliefs than you do. Protests should not be held at celebrations, I think its just rude.
 
and your both americans?

What happend to free speach?
This is the second time similar laws have been inacted, the first was because of a funeral which is fair enough but the pope is going to be in Australia and you think that everyone should shut up and play nice?

WHY for god sake?

Catholic policy is shifting back to the pre vatican 2 stage, we have Pell complaining about a set of CIVIL laws which will give the same rights to same sex couples as oposite sex couples in finantial issues, we have had him bitching and threatning the NSW's PARLIMENT over legislation that was before it ORDERING them to vote his way if they are true catholics, we have his actions during the stem cell resurch debate. Not to mention the fact that he PERSONALLY covered up the sexual assult of a 28 year old man by a priest (see my other thread).

Now because its the church's turn he expects people to shut up?
FUCK NO, he wants to get involved in politics we will give him all the politics he can handle. Not even catholics like my mother (a religious education teacher in a catholic school BTW) are happy about how the church is going
 
Asguard said:
and your both americans?

What happend to free speach?
This is the second time similar laws have been inacted, the first was because of a funeral which is fair enough but the pope is going to be in Australia and you think that everyone should shut up and play nice?
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There's a difference between speaking and being disruptive, we also have freedom of religion without persecution.

Freedom is a two way street, while you are free to speak, you are not free to harrass normal productive citizens of a society, just because they don't like your values.

Either be civil and voice that you personally disagree and shut up, file for a proper request to protest some place that doesn't infringe on the people's right to not be subjected to verbal badgering and agression or just go take up a hobby.

Sorry, but this isn't even an issue.
The church has EVERY right to hold an event within proper zones without fear of Dogmatic uber liberals insulting them.
They asked for a group of areas that they could hold this event in, by following the beaurocracy and it's order, they earned the right to hold it.
 
umm actually these laws cover the whole of sydney not just the area where the events being held.

i think you need a little perspective but the right to protest is MUCH more important
than wether the pope comes to australia

As i said this is not the first time draconian laws have been inacted in sydney like this. Look at the legislation that was inacted for APEC as well.

There is no such THING in australia as a permit to protest, thats an american idea which you can keep. The so called "free speach zones" are a joke to a truly free sociaty
 
umm actually these laws cover the whole of sydney not just the area where the events being held.
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Then why does your article specify "hundreds of Sydney sites"?

Doesn't sound like the whole of sydney, sounds to me like a large portion...

Perhaps you could just go inside for a day and find something not quite so irrelevant to complain about?
There is no such THING in australia as a permit to protest
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That's lovely, however, if you read the spec of your prior comment I quoted, it was specifically directed at Americans, hence why I said "We" meaning (Americans)

You asked what happened to free speech, I was just showing the contrast between free speech and the freedom to haggle people of a particular crowd who have done absolutely nothing wrong in our country, not yours.

Order and civility are essential to a thriving republic, anyone who can't acknowledge that is so dogmatically swallowed up in self importance they really have no business discussing issues of legality and freedom in the first place, as they would likely impose their version of freedom on the larger population and something tells me that freedom would be anything that did not offend their individual(in this case secular) dogmatism.

The only thing more obnoxious than Christian fundies is secular fundies.

i think you need a little perspective but the right to protest is MUCH more important
than wether the pope comes to australia
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I think the right to protest is important, however when you protest and when you have groups who protest, there need to be rules in place for how that protest is conducted and yes, even where it is conducted.

You wouldn't(in my country) see the Aryan nations protesting inside the NAACP convention.. You have an obligation as a government to protect your citizens.

And religion in our country is protected so that people may partake in the particular faith without fear of being ridiculed/taunted/shot at/smacked/beat down/set on fire ect.


When it comes to the pope, I think popes play a more important part in thought, diplomacy and development than your entire country, but that's just an opinion.
 
This and that

Try this, Asguard: Compose an open letter to your local MP and ask that a law be passed banning people from displaying crosses on Wiccan sabbats fine, including the equinoxes and solstices, at the risk of $5,500. Remind that you're only asking the government to be fair, and that you would accept the revocation of this ultimately bonehead and bigoted law.

Send a copy to the MP's office, publish it on your website, and print copies to hand out to people or post in public places according to the law.

• • •​

R.A.J.J.

According to the news article, the law isn't just about voicing your opinion, but wearing t-shirts or merely appearing in any way that might upset delicate Catholic sensibilities.

And I still need to figure out how World Youth Day takes up an entire month.

Aside from that, while the Aryan Nations might not be given voice inside the NAACP convention, they need to do something more than simply exist within sight of the event before they're arrested.
 
According to the news article, the law isn't just about voicing your opinion, but wearing t-shirts or merely appearing in any way that might upset delicate Catholic sensibilities.
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It also lists places you can't go because of the possibility of offending those sensibilities, perhaps a sensible person would just find something else to do......

I didn't notice "through the end of july"

So, you can't offend a certain view point when in a select place for the next 20 days, stay away longer? lol
I still don't see this as an important issue.


Aside from that, while the Aryan Nations might not be given voice inside the NAACP convention, they need to do something more than simply exist within sight of the event before they're arrested.
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I'll challenge that, the NAACP convention will likely have Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, at the risk of their whining I'm willing to bet the Ayran Nations would be shot down at the doors.

Of course, the NAACP convention this year is taking place in Cincinnati, our lovely officers have always had a special warmth and love for special interest groups.

Usually they just kill black people, but like I said, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, you even allowed the Aryan Nation on the same block and the city would have riots, and cnn would dub this the worst place on earth.

Black entertainers would boycott like they did several years back, the sports teams would refuse to play and the murder rate would go back up again.


Point being context, I don't think the police would be tolerant with the severity of discrimination and hatred between the two groups.
 
well tiassa inspite of what certain people think (ie the mongolians who landed in Adelaide last week) Adelaide isnt actually a suberb of sydney so i dont actually fall under the juristiction of these laws. I can tell every catholic priest what a discrace there church is any day i feel like it:p

However i dont at all like the way sydney is going, this is the 4th big event to get these sorts of extra police powers. Actually you cant even call these POLICE powers because acording to one law lecture at the Australian catholic university (ACU) these are the same laws that were passed for kerry packers funeral and when they were in place for that it wasnt the police deciding what consituted an "annoyance" it was the Opra house manager for christ sake.

There was only one other time in recent history where such draconian legislation was concidered, that was in queensland under the national goverment of Joe Beocpeterson. If you have ever herd the song "pig city" thats what the song refers to.

Now we are heading this way again and its NSW's rather than the rednecks up north doing it. How long till insted of Fed square in melbourne being the center of protest (as it was built for) its covered in Nazi style pitures of the current PM?

Yes this will PROBABLY never happen but without protest there is no protection against this. I think i will go buy a T-shirt saying something like "all good catholics bend over for the priest" (reference to the other thread in here with an angry face) and protest on the steps of Adelaides parliment house
 
The problem is that the legislation is so broad and the definition of "annoying" is being left up to individual officers at any given time.

Sydney University students Rachel Evans and Amber Pike challenged the validity of the provisions, which can lead to fines of up to $5500, saying they offended the implied constitutional right to free speech.

Their barrister, John Griffiths SC, argued the provisions were "intended to protect, without limit, the sensitivities of the participants". "They act to restrict normal political debate and civil discourse which takes place in a democracy, even though that conduct is taking place without any threat of physical violence or retaliation," Dr Griffiths said.

He added that 16 other acts contained anti-annoyance laws. Thirteen contained some guidance as to what constituted annoying conduct.

But Dr Griffiths said that, because the WYD legislation offered no such guidance, it could cover behaviour that simply made a participant anxious.

NSW Solicitor-General Michael Sexton QC denied the laws were designed to inhibit freedom of speech, but conceded that what constituted annoying behaviour depended on the judgment of the authorities.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24007207-5017593,00.html
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Something that even the SG of NSW conceded to.

The Federal Court judges hearing this are not overly impressed with the laws themselves. As can be evidenced with their comments:

Justice Margaret Stone suggested it was "difficult to use the term annoying and not have it include something entirely trivial". "The fact is it includes both (the serious and the trivial). That is the difficulty," she said.

She was puzzled by Mr Sexton's claim that parliament could regulate any conduct at WYD.

Justice Catherine Branson said something that annoyed one person could please another.

"It's the subjective element that ... I find most troubling," she told Mr Sexton. "There's a risk of public life in Sydney becoming extraordinarily bland over a period of some weeks because of the force of this (legislation)."

She took issue with the breadth of the phrase "causes annoyance". "You don't even have to engage in annoying behaviour," she said.

Justice Robert French also questioned the scope: "How about barracking for the Dockers while you are sitting in the middle of a bunch of Swans supporters? I've done that."

The Sydney court reserved its decision until Tuesday, the first day of festivities, raising the prospect that organisers may have to proceed without the protection of the laws, passed without parliamentary debate two weeks ago.
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Lets hope they find accordingly.

These laws are absolutely ridiculous. You can understand entering the grounds of the events that there might be some bag searches, as one would expect when going to a concert. But this has gone beyond even the draconian laws in place during APEC. How can one define what is annoying to all? What's worse is that they have brought in volunteers, to help move people, who are doing anything that might be deemed annoying, along.

The pair are appearing in the Federal Court in Sydney today to challenge legislation passed for the six-day event under which police, emergency and rural fire service volunteers have the right to move on people deemed to be causing "inconvenience or annoyance" to pilgrims.

Offending behaviour, which protesters claim includes wearing T-shirts with anti-Pope slogans, could attract a fine of up to $5500.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24003501-5016937,00.html
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Even the Catholic Church appears to be attempting to distance themselves from it, stating that the right to protest peacefully should be protected.

Marie Stopes International has said it will distribute condoms and sexual health advice to all registered young people on request, despite not having permission from the event's organisers, to promote safe sex among the pilgrims.

World Youth Day co-ordinator Bishop Anthony Fisher said today the condoms would add a bit of humour to the event but he hoped the group would also respect the pilgrims' beliefs.

"It will probably be part of the comedy at times," he said.

A protest group, the NoToPope Coalition, is also planning to hand out condoms to pilgrims as they walk through Sydney's eastern suburbs on July 19.


Bishop Fisher also defended the right of people to protest the event and said heavy-handed policing should not be necessary.

"It's a very open question whether such laws are necessary, given the powers the police already have," he said.

"The laws are a matter for government ... (but) we've said we don't think there'll be any need for fines or police action. I think our protesters, if there are any, are going to be very peaceable."

Bishop Fisher said the hostile reception some Sydneysiders were giving the World Youth Day event was confusing to pilgrims.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24003501-5016937,00.html
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The new draconian laws is probably one of the main reasons why those arriving in Sydney for the event are being given a hostile welcome from the locals.
 
CutsieMarie89 said:
I support it too. If its supposed to be a happy and joyous day, you don't want it ruined by people hissing at you because they have different beliefs than you do.
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Like beliefs in free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom to protest.

If the KKK has a 'Happy racists celebrate parade' should it be illegal to stand on the side of their parade route with a sign that says 'Racism sucks'?
 
R.A.J.J. said:
There's a difference between speaking and being disruptive, we also have freedom of religion without persecution.

Freedom is a two way street, while you are free to speak, you are not free to harrass normal productive citizens of a society, just because they don't like your values.

Either be civil and voice that you personally disagree and shut up, file for a proper request to protest some place that doesn't infringe on the people's right to not be subjected to verbal badgering and agression or just go take up a hobby.

Sorry, but this isn't even an issue.
The church has EVERY right to hold an event within proper zones without fear of Dogmatic uber liberals insulting them.
They asked for a group of areas that they could hold this event in, by following the beaurocracy and it's order, they earned the right to hold it.
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And will catholics abstain from protesting outside of Planned Parenthood, gay pride marches, etc.
 
bells you know what has shocked me about this?

its not the laws themselves, as i said this is at least the third time (well fourth including the olympics) that these sort of laws have been passed and each time they get worse.

Its not the comments from george pell, hes a nut case anyway

Its not the comments from the catholic law lecture at ACU because i knew SOMEONE would want to get away from the laws like this, catholics have enough problems with the blame that can be laid at there feet for aids in africa and there treatment of sexual abuse and homosexuality

Its the responces HERE from draqon, cutsie and R.A.J.J.

I can understand laws to prevent protest at a funeral, hell i would have welcomed this for Heath ledgers funeral after watching that nut case threatning to disrupt it because of broke back mountain. However that is just about the ONLY time that this sort of action is aceptable. This is just pure idiocy, and i hope the courts strike down the laws, if only so that they arnt inacted ever again
 
put it this way, if your stuck in traffic because of a detour for this event and running late to work and you say "fucking catholics" under these laws if a catholic or a cop hears buy rights you could be arested and charged $5000
 
CutsieMarie89 said:
I support it too. If its supposed to be a happy and joyous day, you don't want it ruined by people hissing at you because they have different beliefs than you do. Protests should not be held at celebrations, I think its just rude.
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Then where else are protestors suppposed to protest at? :shrug:
 
Nothing seems to ruin your day like protesters. I've been to funerals that had protesters flown in just to protest. It's was the saddest thing ever. Or a gay families' cruise that a friend of mine was taking had protesters there yelling terrible things when her 9 year old was present. Those things were disgusting and utterly disrespectful, I have very little tolerance for outright disrespect so maybe that's why I have a chip on my shoulder. My personal policy is if you don't like something (that isn't causing any harm to anyone, just a groups ideals)don't go. I'm black, so if the Ku Klux Klan wanted to have a parade down my street. I wouldn't protest or go outside and throw stuff at them because I don't agree with their policies or beliefs. I just wouldn't go to the parade.
I believe the legislation written for the Youth day event seems rather vague as far as what is considered annoying and what they can't wear. Even though I have to deal with legislation like that all the time here the US. If what the catholic church is doing is making so many people upset then they don't they host their own parade encouraging change?
 
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