There is no soul and no afterlife.

[G0D]

Humans are simply animals with intelligence. We are not special because we are intelligent, just like dogs are not special beacuse they can fuck 50 times a day and just like eagles are not special because they can fly.

Like all animals and life on this world, we will die.

But, because we are "intelligent", we try our best to avoid this unpleasant fact. We do everything to avoid confronting the idea that one day, we will cease to exist.

This denial has taken so many forms that it has become institutionlized and woven into our daily lives. Even after 5000 years of civilization and science, people strongly resist the idea of permanent death.

The concepts of "soul", "afterlife", "rebirth", "re-incarnation" etc, etc, etc, are all different aspects of this elaborate denial.

We are simply mammals, and like other mammals, we will die. There is nothing after death.

We are free to believe anything we want, if it gives us comfort from the fact of our inevitable demise. But, if we want the facts, unvarnished, we will reject any such false comforts.

The fact of my own inevitable, inescapable death is more than slightly depressing to acknowledge. The only small consolation is that the vast majority openly resort to self-deception.

 

[Avatar]

Hey, why to reject the idea. If it makes me or smone feel better, why not let it be. Of course I' m not talkin' about christian paranoia of hell and paradise.

I do everything tht makes me enjoy my life more, including possibility of reincarnation or life after death.

And GOD, we do not really know nothing about after-life.
Maybe there' s nthing, maybe we reincarnate after we die, maybe go to sm other dimension.
All is 50-50. i.e. all is possible.

so the best thing to do is to find a way to prove either truth, but till tht beleive in tht wht makes us feel better.
Bye!

 

[Bebelina]

God, I guess you´re in for a happy surprise then, when you die.

 

[razz]

Well i f i die in the near future....

I wanna come back (reincarnated) as Bebelina's Gstring.

Now that would be a pleasant surprise.

Oh now I'm in for it...gunna get bible bashed by the do gooders for that typical male comment.:bugeye:

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:

(shakes head) ....I dun have any decorum.

 

[Xelios]

You would be reincarnated as a piece of inert cloth?

Just wanted to say I think GOD has hit the nail right on the head. Some day we will have to accept the fact that death is the end. I wonder what will happen to the idea of an afterlife if we ever acheive immortality?

 

[G0D]

Hmmm

Interesting idea - what would happen to the concept of afterlife when we manage immortality. I'd imagine the believers would reject the immortality treatment, because they want their own form of "eternal life" . Then we'd really start separating the "true believers" from the waverers.

Immortality, in our original bodies, IMO, is not possible. There is a saying that there's exactly one thing in common with Ponce de Leon, Gilgamesh, and all the others who tried to become immortal - They are all dead.

But there may be possible some form of body transplant to keep us alive indefinitely. Or it may be possible to store an exact state of our brains so that our conciousness lives on in an electronic state. (I'm convinced that the latter is mathematically proven to be impossible, but that's another story.)

 

[Cris]

God,

Good post. It is virtually identical to several versions of the same idea I have posted here over the past two years. But it is good to see it on view again.

There are several additional points or further emphasis I’d like to add.

1. The basis of virtually every religion is the belief that death is not the end. All the remaining details of any religion are attempts to justify this irrational belief.

2. The fatalistic acceptance by religionists that there must be an afterlife means that they have not looked harder for a solution to the apparent eventual death that seems to await us. Most people die because they age. Not that they die of old age, that is in fact quite rare, but the aging process makes us vulnerable to other diseases and it is those that kill us. Medical science now considers the aging process as no longer inevitable but just another disease to be cured like any other. For the first time in human history we are very soon very likely to be able to claim that death is not the inevitability always assumed.

3. We know religion; especially Christianity has persecuted, tortured, harassed, murdered and tormented many scientists in the past. The effect was to dissuade many potential scientists from performing valuable research. The real toll of this probable loss of vast quantities of knowledge is inestimable. Had religions not have existed, especially Christianity, and if science had been actively promoted rather than prevented, then I suspect we might have landed on the moon 1000 years ago, and the aging disease similarly cured centuries ago. This feature of religion I consider one of the greatest evils mankind has ever had to endure. The total discreditation and abolishment of religion cannot come soon enough.

4. Religionists do not want to cease to exist, and neither do I. Religionists have deluded themselves into believing a fantasy. I hope the genetics research will solve the aging problem in my lifetime, if not then there are other technology solutions that may well provide alternatives. Mind Uploading is another of my favorites. But if you haven’t heard of that yet then you have some more looking to do yet.

5. Religionists have given up looking for a solution to death; they think they have the solution. They will die and will cease to exist. We do not have to give up but should continue to look. We do have alternatives: Genetics (anti-aging), Mind Uploading, and Cryogenics. Don’t despair, or stop looking like the religionists, science and technology are our best hopes, and death may not be as inevitable as you think.

Cris

 

[Cris]

Avatar,

Hey, why to reject the idea. If it makes me or smone feel better, why not let it be. Of course I' m not talkin' about christian paranoia of hell and paradise.

I do everything tht makes me enjoy my life more, including possibility of reincarnation or life after death.

And GOD, we do not really know nothing about after-life.
Maybe there' s nthing, maybe we reincarnate after we die, maybe go to sm other dimension.
All is 50-50. i.e. all is possible.

When something makes you feel nice it doesn’t mean it represents truth. If we all lived in a fantasy world then the human race will cease to exist when the next asteroid hits the Earth. We must strive to learn and to protect our existence. Rejecting the false and the fantasies, and seeking real truth is the only way for us to survive.

It is true we know nothing of an afterlife since no one can show that it could exist let alone that it does exist. Hoping for something rather searching for the truth is foolhardy.

so the best thing to do is to find a way to prove either truth, but till tht beleive in tht wht makes us feel better.

Very dangerous path. An irrational belief is a mjor distraction to the effort needed to find the truth.

Believe only those things that can be shown to be true, until then reject everything else but look for evidence and proof.

Cris

 

[daktaklakpak]

Death is true. Cease to exist is not so true if you narrow the views to the basic building block things.

I don't know where the atoms come from that made up my hands, but I am sure some of them had been used by other dead people long time ago.

 

[Cris]

dak,

OK, but much too literal.

After you cease to exist -

I would say that the cohesive patterns that represented your thoughts and memories that were once held in an electro-chemical state have now ceased to exist. The fabric of the holding structures has simply disintegrated into more basic components and elements.

I care little for my physical form, I see myself represented by the patterns that form my thought processes and memories. If I could survive in a different form then that really means that those thought and memory patterns will be present.

Cris

 

[G0D]

Re: mind uploading

Roger Penrose has written some good stuff re: conciousness and computers.

The issue of "mind uploading" is also considered. Very interesting conclusions he came to. The bottom line, unfortunately, is that conciousness cannot be duplicated on a machine/computer.

Lots of ideas were considered, things like the "transporter machine" from science fiction.

A transporter beam essentially scans and records the exact state of a human body at any time, and then reproduces the recorded state elsewhere. Now, imagine if the transporter beam sent the data to a storage point, like a large computer.

Would the data stored in the computer be concious? If yes, would it feel any different? Could we run a simulation of the transported person and talk to it to find out?

Maybe the stored data is not concious or aware. Maybe these qualities arise only when a simlulation is actually run. Then, if we ran two simulations, would the conciousness/awareness of the person become split?

etc.

I'd recommend the books to everyone. "The emperor's new mind" and "Shadows of the mind".

 

[G0D]

bk

Originally posted by Cris
3. We know religion; especially Christianity has persecuted, tortured, harassed, murdered and tormented many scientists in the past. The effect was to dissuade many potential scientists from performing valuable research. The real toll of this probable loss of vast quantities of knowledge is inestimable. Had religions not have existed, especially Christianity, and if science had been actively promoted rather than prevented, then I suspect we might have landed on the moon 1000 years ago, and the aging disease similarly cured centuries ago. This feature of religion I consider one of the greatest evils mankind has ever had to endure. The total discreditation and abolishment of religion cannot come soon enough.

Cris

I just saw a post by BevKay called "Impact of christianity on human society". I was most tempted to post this quote there, but held back. No use in keeping a nonsensical post alive by feeding it.

 

[makaera]

Ya know

It is a basic tenet of Christianity that at some point Christ will return for a final judgement. Therefore, from a Christian point of view I see no religious conflicts with immortality treatments. All it means is that I will live until the final judgement. I don't have any problems with that.

 

[Markx]

Re: Well i f i die in the near future....

Originally posted by razz
I wanna come back (reincarnated) as Bebelina's Gstring.

Now that would be a pleasant surprise.

Oh now I'm in for it...gunna get bible bashed by the do gooders for that typical male comment.:bugeye:

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:

(shakes head) ....I dun have any decorum.

Razz,
Sorry to inform you that Bebelina will FART just like any other human beeing. I hope you enjoy that too............

 

[G0D]

Re: Ya know

Originally posted by makaera
It is a basic tenet of Christianity that at some point Christ will return for a final judgement. Therefore, from a Christian point of view I see no religious conflicts with immortality treatments. All it means is that I will live until the final judgement. I don't have any problems with that.

If the afterlife is as perfect and as delightful a place as you and others have painted out to be, then simple logic dictates that you should try achieve it as soon as possible.

What use is immortality on this imperfect world with it's suffering and sin? Graduate to silver halos, shiny new wings and clouds for mattresses!

Should you wish to attempt such an endeavour, ie. hastening your appointment with your creator, then, I would strongly urge you to persuade Sir Loony, tony1 and Kalvinb to join you in achieving ultimate bliss.

 

[razz]

Markx... lol

Fair enough thats why intend to be super-duper non-alergenic anti-absorbant non-stainable anti-fade non-breathable material type G-string (laughs)
Crikey I hope that works...or else I may just have to put up with just becoming her bra, .....nipples dont fart do they?:bugeye:

So..... Nice weather..

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:

 

[Bebelina]

Razz....., did you forget your brain on the bus again? :bugeye:

Back to topic then, I don´t either see any conflict at all between reincarnation and physical immortality. Because when we have evolved so far that physical immortality is a reality then reincarnation will no longer be necessary. Then we will simply chose to die when we are ready with the physical experience.

The soul has not been created by religion, religion has been created as a mean to understand it and its workings within the physical reality.

But religion has outdated itself and now we can learn about our souls and inner reality, cosmos, all that is, by just wanting to know and by listnening. Religion can be good for those who have a hard time connecting to their inner spirits and need dictating rules to go by. It´s when it leads to fanatism that things get really ugly. But that applies to all areas, not only religion.

And what is religion? It´s an invented belief system. So by all means invent your own, unless you already have, and just forgotten to label it religion.

 

[MuliBoy]

Razz... definetly first incarnation stuff. You´ve got a hell of a long road to travel.
Grow.

 

[Markx]

Re: Markx... lol

Originally posted by razz
Fair enough thats why intend to be super-duper non-alergenic anti-absorbant non-stainable anti-fade non-breathable material type G-string (laughs)
Crikey I hope that works...or else I may just have to put up with just becoming her bra, .....nipples dont fart do they?:bugeye:

So..... Nice weather..

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:

Speechlesss now.

 

[Avatar]

Originally posted by Cris
Avatar,

Very dangerous path. An irrational belief is a mjor distraction to the effort needed to find the truth.

Believe only those things that can be shown to be true, until then reject everything else but look for evidence and proof.

Cris

Hey, I never said tht we shouldn' t look. But it needed courage to even think of going to the moon and how much courage will be needed to experiment with the possibility of afterlife???

I live in no dream world. I yust don' t reject everything I can not find proof for at the moment. Yes it needs time to prove it wrong or not. Christians had their time of proving utopic idea of their religion for 2000 years and nthing worked out. enough.

Maybe in our search for afterlife we will gain immortality(brain uploading and genetics). The process of searching and experimentating should reveal many unknown and valuable facts.
We need to take the middle way. Not to go in too much in fantasying and not too much in blindness and rejecting.
Courage to ask and seek for an answer(scientifically of course)!

Bye!