Theory on Black Holes
- Thread starter Pipes75
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Why do you say that. Even I don't question their existence
.Why do you say that. Even I don't question their existence
think hydraulics
you can only suppress matter to a point and then it kicks back
If you mean the idea that a true singularity exists is nonsense then that might be true, hopefully quantum gravity will stop that happening somehow. If you mean the existence of some kind of compact object which possesses an event horizon is nonsense, well, the evidence speaks against you on this one.
OK. So we don’t think that a black hole can reach zero volume at which point it would be a point in space with infinite energy density; a singularity.
But we do think that there are places at the center of galaxies where the energy density is so high that an event horizon forms, meaning that nothing that enters it can escape. So we can define a black hole, we can detect their presence by the motion of stars around them though we can’t see them directly, and then we have Thinking’s issue that there is a limit to energy density.
When we deal with matter as we know it, nucleosynthesis that takes place within stars is responsible for the heavy nuclei that make up the elements that are prevalent in planetary systems. We observe that some elements can exist and/or decay slowly at the normal energy density of the surface of the Earth but decay rapidly as the energy density increases to critical density, at which time they explode.
So something is happening inside a black hole that compresses matter beyond the point where nuclear explosions would occur. Stars are known to explode but black holes don’t as far as I know. That “something” that happens inside a black hole is speculative. Thinking is speculating while Kurros is not.
We don’t know what the limit of maximum energy density is, and we don’t know if anything reactive happens when that limit is reached. But since we are talking about Pipes75’s idea that there might be amazing things going on inside inactive black holes let’s address that idea. In the light of what might be a maximum limit to energy density that could only occur inside a black hole that has “vacuumed up” a sufficient amount of matter and energy, but where sufficient space is not available for matter to function, what might be happening? Nothing is going on inside a black hole that has reached the maximum energy density unless something happens that we don't know about when it is reached. Thinking would have to be proposing new physics, and so what new physics are you proposing?
That maximum energy density would not allow the existence of matter as we know it. Matter needs sufficient space to function. So Pipes would have to either amend his idea or submit to the idea that there isn’t enough space inside a black hole to allow the matter and energy to function as a galaxy or even another universe.
How about it Pipes75; any thoughts now that we have discussed it a little bit? How do you deal with that lack of sufficient space inside a black hole? Would you be going to other dimensions?
But we do think that there are places at the center of galaxies where the energy density is so high that an event horizon forms, meaning that nothing that enters it can escape. So we can define a black hole, we can detect their presence by the motion of stars around them though we can’t see them directly, and then we have Thinking’s issue that there is a limit to energy density.
When we deal with matter as we know it, nucleosynthesis that takes place within stars is responsible for the heavy nuclei that make up the elements that are prevalent in planetary systems. We observe that some elements can exist and/or decay slowly at the normal energy density of the surface of the Earth but decay rapidly as the energy density increases to critical density, at which time they explode.
So something is happening inside a black hole that compresses matter beyond the point where nuclear explosions would occur. Stars are known to explode but black holes don’t as far as I know. That “something” that happens inside a black hole is speculative. Thinking is speculating while Kurros is not.
We don’t know what the limit of maximum energy density is, and we don’t know if anything reactive happens when that limit is reached. But since we are talking about Pipes75’s idea that there might be amazing things going on inside inactive black holes let’s address that idea. In the light of what might be a maximum limit to energy density that could only occur inside a black hole that has “vacuumed up” a sufficient amount of matter and energy, but where sufficient space is not available for matter to function, what might be happening? Nothing is going on inside a black hole that has reached the maximum energy density unless something happens that we don't know about when it is reached. Thinking would have to be proposing new physics, and so what new physics are you proposing?
That maximum energy density would not allow the existence of matter as we know it. Matter needs sufficient space to function. So Pipes would have to either amend his idea or submit to the idea that there isn’t enough space inside a black hole to allow the matter and energy to function as a galaxy or even another universe.
How about it Pipes75; any thoughts now that we have discussed it a little bit? How do you deal with that lack of sufficient space inside a black hole? Would you be going to other dimensions?
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Maybe using the word Theory in my thread title was wrong. However there are new theories that real scientists are developing right now. The theories are not complete and not tested yet, but our current theories need updated, and science knows it.
As for active vs dormant black holes. They are not the same thing at all. Almost all galaxies have a super massive black hole that is dormant at the center. There is plenty of matter for these black holes to suck up if they were to be active, but they are not active. The problem your having Dy, is that we only have 2 classes of black holes and unfortunetly a dying out black hole that has very little or no activety is also classified as dormant. Dormant and active are most certainly not the same thing though. Dormant black holes that are in busy areas (like the center of galaxies) are not active, they are very large black holes that if they wetre active, they would likely swallow whole galaxies!
I think it is comical that you call me a novice. Science has not fully explained black holes yet, so no one really understands black holes completely yet. But some things are known and one of those things is that not all black holes are active.
String Theory originated to try and make sense of gravitational force. However String Theory has went in many different directions since it originated. The black hole stuff is just one of many possible explanations for why gravity appears as a weaker force than it should be. This is a very small section out of a very complicated theory that I am offer opinions on.
And as stated in the opening post q wave, yes I do believe it is entirely possible that the other end of a black hole is in a different dimension. Furthermore I believe each new dimension would likely have it's own universe. The begining of a universe could very well be when a blackhole finally sucked in more that it can handle, and BOOM, a new universe is born in another dimension.
As for active vs dormant black holes. They are not the same thing at all. Almost all galaxies have a super massive black hole that is dormant at the center. There is plenty of matter for these black holes to suck up if they were to be active, but they are not active. The problem your having Dy, is that we only have 2 classes of black holes and unfortunetly a dying out black hole that has very little or no activety is also classified as dormant. Dormant and active are most certainly not the same thing though. Dormant black holes that are in busy areas (like the center of galaxies) are not active, they are very large black holes that if they wetre active, they would likely swallow whole galaxies!
I think it is comical that you call me a novice. Science has not fully explained black holes yet, so no one really understands black holes completely yet. But some things are known and one of those things is that not all black holes are active.
String Theory originated to try and make sense of gravitational force. However String Theory has went in many different directions since it originated. The black hole stuff is just one of many possible explanations for why gravity appears as a weaker force than it should be. This is a very small section out of a very complicated theory that I am offer opinions on.
And as stated in the opening post q wave, yes I do believe it is entirely possible that the other end of a black hole is in a different dimension. Furthermore I believe each new dimension would likely have it's own universe. The begining of a universe could very well be when a blackhole finally sucked in more that it can handle, and BOOM, a new universe is born in another dimension.
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And black holes aren't made of water.
Incorrect "thinking" on your part: they're so dense that gravitation takes over completely.
OK, I take back calling you a novice.
I'm sorry, I missed where you said you like the idea of other dimensions as well as a multiverse in the OP.
I just can't get excited about universes existing in other dimensions because I can't convince myself that there is a way for space to exist outside of our universe. Would it be something like negative space? Or is there some boundary between our universe and the universe in another dimension. Even if there are multiple dimensions beyond good old 3-D space, it seems to me that they would at least be sharing the 3 dimensions I think we live in. If there is a sharing going on wouldn't we be bumping into each other in the shared space?
Some of the more complicated parts of string theory does involve universes colliding. I don't have many opinions on other dimensions other than I like the possibilities that they might exist.
However if other dimensions do exist, they are completely unknown at this point, so it is unknown whether any of our space would be shared with other dimensions.
The way I see it, I see it as just a possibility that an active blackhole is a gateway to another dimension, where as a dormant black hole (not a dying out dormant one, but a dormant black hole in an active area) would be a black hole that already sucked in more than it could handle, it started a Big Bang in another universe, and after the explossion on the other side, the gateway is now closed.
But again, this is just one of many possiblities being explored with String Theory while trying to explain what appears as an absence of the right amount of gravitational force in our own universe. There are other explainations as well that try to explain gravitational forces outside of the black hole stuff, I just happen to be drawn to the black hole part of an untested, incomplete new theory. I never said I believe this is the truth, I do however believe it to be possible.
Dormant blacks holes have just sucked up all matter within their current reach. The reason why we have all those dormant black holes at the center of galaixes is because they are puny in area next to the huge area of the galactic core.
Even very large black holes with the mass of galaxies would not be anywhere near the size of our galalzy at 120,000 light years across. Black holes just don't swallow whole galaxies. Other then for this part I agree with you, I've been reading an old book about Hyperspace that talks about String Theory and other universes.
Dormant or not, there does seem to be an upper mass limit for blackholes.
Eventually the potential well becomes so large the in-falling matter radiates so much it pushes everything else away, starving itself. Or at least thats the best explanation science has at the moment.
Eventually the potential well becomes so large the in-falling matter radiates so much it pushes everything else away, starving itself. Or at least thats the best explanation science has at the moment.
Ture, I forgot about that. Such as when supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies formed, once they had sucked in to much matter anything far enough beyond the event horizon was pushed away by the massive energy of the Quasar. But there's not really an upper limit from what we know so far, just that really big holes at galactic cores seem to have just pushed most stuff out of their reach. I saw a show on TV the other day that mention that the one at the center of the galaxy snacked on a gas cloud, but it was an old show. But I agree with String Theory, I've been thinking about using the higher dimesions for FTL in a book I'm writing.
Doing some more reading, I found something.
"Supermassive black holes are believed to reside at the cores of every galaxy, though some are thought to be more active than others. Active black holes drag surrounding material into them, heating it up and causing it to glow. Dormant black holes, like the one in our Milky Way galaxy, hardly make a peep, so they are difficult to study."
Now, I just saw on a Nasa site that a star wandered to close to a suspected dormant black hole, and the dormant black hole became active! They got the whole proccess of this dormant black hole swallowing a star!
"That's why astronomers get excited when an unsuspecting star wanders too close to a dormant black hole, an event thought to happen about once every 10,000 years in a typical galaxy. A star will flatten and stretch apart when a nearby black hole's gravity overcomes its own self-gravity. The same phenomenon happens on Earth every day, as the moon's gravity tugs on our world, causing the oceans to rise and fall. Once a star has been disrupted, a portion of its gaseous body will then be pulled into the black hole and heated up to temperatures that emit X-rays and ultraviolet light."
"The star just couldn't hold itself together," said Gezari, adding, "Now that we know we can observe these events with ultraviolet light, we've got a new tool for finding more."
"The newfound feeding black hole is thought to be tens of millions times as massive as our sun. Its host galaxy is located 4 billion light-years away in the Bootes constellation."
Sites do contradict eachother probably because so much remains unknown, but it seems the scientists are having alot more difficulty studying dormant black holes than active ones, probably because we don't see the black hole, we see the effects! I still can't post sites yet, but you can find sites that say so many different things, I don't even know if links will help, lol.
Short Poem I wrote
Another blackhole fills up,
Another dimension feels the bang,
A new universe begins,
Simplified but not explained,
But what is singularity,
If not all sucked into one,
And when it's got more then it can hold,
Then BOOM, we've just begun.
"Supermassive black holes are believed to reside at the cores of every galaxy, though some are thought to be more active than others. Active black holes drag surrounding material into them, heating it up and causing it to glow. Dormant black holes, like the one in our Milky Way galaxy, hardly make a peep, so they are difficult to study."
Now, I just saw on a Nasa site that a star wandered to close to a suspected dormant black hole, and the dormant black hole became active! They got the whole proccess of this dormant black hole swallowing a star!
"That's why astronomers get excited when an unsuspecting star wanders too close to a dormant black hole, an event thought to happen about once every 10,000 years in a typical galaxy. A star will flatten and stretch apart when a nearby black hole's gravity overcomes its own self-gravity. The same phenomenon happens on Earth every day, as the moon's gravity tugs on our world, causing the oceans to rise and fall. Once a star has been disrupted, a portion of its gaseous body will then be pulled into the black hole and heated up to temperatures that emit X-rays and ultraviolet light."
"The star just couldn't hold itself together," said Gezari, adding, "Now that we know we can observe these events with ultraviolet light, we've got a new tool for finding more."
"The newfound feeding black hole is thought to be tens of millions times as massive as our sun. Its host galaxy is located 4 billion light-years away in the Bootes constellation."
Sites do contradict eachother probably because so much remains unknown, but it seems the scientists are having alot more difficulty studying dormant black holes than active ones, probably because we don't see the black hole, we see the effects! I still can't post sites yet, but you can find sites that say so many different things, I don't even know if links will help, lol.
Short Poem I wrote
Another blackhole fills up,
Another dimension feels the bang,
A new universe begins,
Simplified but not explained,
But what is singularity,
If not all sucked into one,
And when it's got more then it can hold,
Then BOOM, we've just begun.
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that black-holes are three dimensional
in the sense that rotation of the galaxy and the direction of rotation leads to opposite directions , one from the north the other from the south ( I know this is spectulation ) which gives opposite physical dynamic compressions , hence hydraulics
one direction of suppression counters the other to the point of a balance between the two
That doesn't dictate an upper mass limit.
If something should come along later and get gravitationally attracted it would get pulled in.
Sure it does, at that point, the blackhole would be evaporating faster then it could acquire new material. Any new material sucked it would be pushing other material away until the black hole had lost sufficient mass that the in falling matter does not radiate so much to push other material away.
The most interesting part about this is that regardless of which epoch the universe is in, the upper mass limit appears to remain the same.
http://opa.yale.edu/news/article.aspx?id=5984
Ah, okay.
Different wording from your last post.
Nah, what's really interesting -
From your link.
However:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13166-biggest-black-hole-in-the-cosmos-discovered.html
80% larger than the "limit".
Back to the calculations boys.
Scientists, eh?
A more complete possibility,
Imagine a ball. Now imagine the ball is growing. The ball also has many layers. Each layer is it's own universe with it's own dimensions.
All the black holes throught the entire ball could be sucking as much into the core of the ball as they can. The denser the core gets, the more vulnerable the inner layers would become (the core might splash some dense 'singularity' on other layers once it becomes too dense).
Also the surface of our ball could be vulnerable to unknown outside forces.
There could be many balls of many growing universes!
Our universe would be just one of many layers.
Each black hole would be a gateway through other layers, but with so much force, that it's a gateway we can not travel through,.
This slightly modified version doesn't matter on what type of a black hole it is, but after seeing a dormant black hole eat a star on the Nasa site, I needed to modify some things.
Imagine a ball. Now imagine the ball is growing. The ball also has many layers. Each layer is it's own universe with it's own dimensions.
All the black holes throught the entire ball could be sucking as much into the core of the ball as they can. The denser the core gets, the more vulnerable the inner layers would become (the core might splash some dense 'singularity' on other layers once it becomes too dense).
Also the surface of our ball could be vulnerable to unknown outside forces.
There could be many balls of many growing universes!
Our universe would be just one of many layers.
Each black hole would be a gateway through other layers, but with so much force, that it's a gateway we can not travel through,
.This slightly modified version doesn't matter on what type of a black hole it is, but after seeing a dormant black hole eat a star on the Nasa site, I needed to modify some things
.You mention string theory, as if you're familiar with it, and then use 'dimensions' in a manner utterly different to how they (ie string theorists) would. You use it in the way that sci-fi shows do, that 'another dimension' is another universe like ours, 'parallel' in the sense it has had a parallel history to ours but something's different.
That isn't how 'extra dimensions' are used in string theory, they are different directions to move. They are extra ups and downs, lefts and rights but in general can only be detected on very very small scales. In string theory it's possible to construct things which do look a lot like the sci-fi notion of extra dimensions but by their very nature (parallel 3-branes) they wouldn't 'occupy the same space', they are at different points in space-time.