Because you should be good to other people. You can't show that being good is correct: most, if not all people fail to be completely good. But we have to try.
Theory of Evolution
- Thread starter bearer_of_truth
- Start date
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I thought I'd addressed that with the example of natural scientists who put animals through what *they* think are horrible circumstances, even though they're just the tranqing, tagging, and sometimes culling of species?
We cull herds because there is a greater good involved than the individuals. We don't expect the animals to like it or even understand it. But our motives are for the love of the species. Are we "evil" because this or that animal has to be killed to protect the herd? Do we also save the gazelle from the lion?
If one grants the existence of an entity so powerful it can literally create life, how can one then presume to possibly understand its intentions based on what one sees from five feet above the Earth? How can we presume that it would (somehow) jeopardize the world over your one life or mine, or even a village in the shadow of a volcano?
Put yourself in the place of the gazelle in an African National Preserve. Are we not "evil" in their tiny brains?
Again, not preaching for God here, just following some internal logic to the mythos (like one might follow how magic works in a fantasy story).
I can show empirical evidence that if you are good to people in a small group, they will tend to be good to you. This can be extrapolated to apply to large groups. There is evidence that people acting good towards you will result in tangible benefits.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I would say that is a very risky extrapolation.
There is a strongly limiting effect.
The larger you consider your tribe, the more distant are the bulk of its members. At some point, your needs and theirs are so disparate that they cross the line between ally and rival.
Then you should only care about being good in small groups. That's what I do.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Yeah. Dangers at both ends. A tribe too small is the crucible of bigotry. "No one I know looks/acts like X. He's obviously not from my tribe."
Not suggesting you're at risk of being bigoted...
No, you're right, I'm bigoted, anyone could be. It's not my fault, it's the culture.
But that's not why you should do it. When the evidence is the other way, you should still be a good person.
Tough way to live ; been there in my everyday life.
True though .
Thumbs up to PhysBang
river
Can any religionist provide objective verifiable evidence that refutes this?
I challenge any religionist to provide objective verifiable evidence that contradicts the following information.
There are basically hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of dramatically different God beliefs and philosophies but no God announces or demonstrates that he is the real God and the many others are fakes.
If a real God really exists then why doesn't he appear before all the 7 billion people on this planet and proves authentically and without any doubt that he is the real God and that all the others are fake? Why doesn't he just smite all the fakes?
The fact is that no God ever speaks to, communicates with or appears to any of the 7 billion sane members of society.
There is no objective verifiable evidence that any dead relative or friend has ever directly communicated with living people. That is because they no longer exist!
None of the hundreds of thousands of religious leaders has ever been able to demonstrate that his God actually exists. Nor have any of them ever been able to confirm that their Heaven, Hell, God, Devil, Angels or Spirits actually exist.
Nor have any of them ever proven they have communicated with their claimed God.
Ask yourself this:
Why would any real loving and caring intelligent God create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Volcanic Eruptions, Blizzards, Heat Waves, Droughts, Massive Floods, Wars, Cancers, mass disease epidemics and hundreds of debilitating disorders and serious body malfunctions?
Natural disasters kill many people every year regardless of their religious persuasion and God apparently does nothing at all to stop these natural accidents.
There are 12,000 known diseases and body disorders that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of innocent children in this horrible way?
Why would any all-powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children and animals to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Also why are some born mentally retarded and others with super-intelligence? Also why are some born into extreme wealth and others into total destitution?
Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
beliefs?
People feel compelled to believe in Gods, Heavens, Hells, Angels and the afterlife because they cannot mentally accept the finality of death and the loss of their existence.
Their is no objective verifiable evidence that any Gods are any more real than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, All Gods are based on nothing more than hopes, myths and fables.
I challenge any religionist to provide objective verifiable evidence that contradicts the following information.
There are basically hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of dramatically different God beliefs and philosophies but no God announces or demonstrates that he is the real God and the many others are fakes.
If a real God really exists then why doesn't he appear before all the 7 billion people on this planet and proves authentically and without any doubt that he is the real God and that all the others are fake? Why doesn't he just smite all the fakes?
The fact is that no God ever speaks to, communicates with or appears to any of the 7 billion sane members of society.
There is no objective verifiable evidence that any dead relative or friend has ever directly communicated with living people. That is because they no longer exist!
None of the hundreds of thousands of religious leaders has ever been able to demonstrate that his God actually exists. Nor have any of them ever been able to confirm that their Heaven, Hell, God, Devil, Angels or Spirits actually exist.
Nor have any of them ever proven they have communicated with their claimed God.
Ask yourself this:
Why would any real loving and caring intelligent God create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Volcanic Eruptions, Blizzards, Heat Waves, Droughts, Massive Floods, Wars, Cancers, mass disease epidemics and hundreds of debilitating disorders and serious body malfunctions?
Natural disasters kill many people every year regardless of their religious persuasion and God apparently does nothing at all to stop these natural accidents.
There are 12,000 known diseases and body disorders that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of innocent children in this horrible way?
Why would any all-powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children and animals to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Also why are some born mentally retarded and others with super-intelligence? Also why are some born into extreme wealth and others into total destitution?
Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious
beliefs?
People feel compelled to believe in Gods, Heavens, Hells, Angels and the afterlife because they cannot mentally accept the finality of death and the loss of their existence.
Their is no objective verifiable evidence that any Gods are any more real than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, All Gods are based on nothing more than hopes, myths and fables.
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That's only so because other people also follow the "in general, unless overwhelmingly contraindicated somehow and most of the time even then, be good" rule. So the self-interest motive for a given individual works by assuming others are not acting solely in self-interest, but are instead following the rule.
Also, case by case self interest is costly in terms of calculation and effort and time and error probability - it's far more efficient to simply act according to the rule, and far more reliable in providing the feedback encouraging others to do likewise - which is greatly to one's advantage.
As far as anyone has established, via theory and modeling and calculation, the size of the group is not the main factor in the evolutionary establishment of the rule. The main factor is repetition of encounter with identifiable individuals.
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DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Thou shalt worship no false idols before me is an explicit declaration that all other gods are false.
Because, as the mythos goes, he wants his people to have faith. To believe in him because they choose to, not because they have to.
Because that would defeat the purpose of giving his creations free will.
There is no shred of proof that we really have free will but that's beside the point. We cannot violate the laws of physics for example.
The fact is that people who believe in God are brainwashed. They never look at the bigger picture.
If you read the Old Testament you can see the horrible stuff God has commanded to be done - killing!
Killing is wrong, whether God commanded it or Hitler did.
The Old Testament is proof that the God Christians believe in is not loving and peaceful.
And the fact is that the Bible is full of such barbarities and immoralities, including killing, human sacrifice, incest, slavery and other bad things that God is doing.
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Any "testament", including the Quran, is the same shit, different day.
When religiosity is a definitive symptom of mental defect we will have made some steps towards a sane culture. Ignoring the atrocities committed in the name of God because "God" willed it is the worst of our faults.
When religiosity is a definitive symptom of mental defect we will have made some steps towards a sane culture. Ignoring the atrocities committed in the name of God because "God" willed it is the worst of our faults.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
[Sorry for the boilerplate apologism but it's in my contract.]
I'm an atheist, but I can call out logical flaws. I'm not advocating, just enlightening. If one is going to reject something, it should be for valid reasons, not misconceptions.
(Whether or not god exists is another matter, but the above would be true if he did.)
Essentially, he has one requirement for humanity. Love me.
He wants us to do it of our free will. But at some point, he sees his creation go off the rails, gets angry and does some housecleaning.
You express a very simplistic impression of God and it's a strawman. You are taking up arms against a self-manufactured position that does not exist. Proponents of God do not profess the views you ascribe to them.
What you're doing is the parallel of what Creationists do. They get a simplistic, wrong idea in their head about the opposing argument (evolution), then attack that.
I'm an atheist, but I can call out logical flaws. I'm not advocating, just enlightening. If one is going to reject something, it should be for valid reasons, not misconceptions.
Yes, it is. (beside the point).
This is merely rhetoric. No response necessary.
By definition, God is not subject to right or wrong. God defines right or wrong by his actions. There's no such thing as judgement of God.
(Whether or not god exists is another matter, but the above would be true if he did.)
No one ever suggested God is loving and peaceful all the time. God, especially the Old Testament God, is wrathful.
Essentially, he has one requirement for humanity. Love me.
He wants us to do it of our free will. But at some point, he sees his creation go off the rails, gets angry and does some housecleaning.
You express a very simplistic impression of God and it's a strawman. You are taking up arms against a self-manufactured position that does not exist. Proponents of God do not profess the views you ascribe to them.
What you're doing is the parallel of what Creationists do. They get a simplistic, wrong idea in their head about the opposing argument (evolution), then attack that.
No, that is simply not the case. There is nothing in the definition of the divine that requires this extraordinary property. Many people have claimed this property for their diety, but without sound argument and without clearly representing the nature of their deity with their religion as practiced.
I don't see it that way. All the commandment is saying is not to worship any of the false ones, the genuine idols are still free to be worshipped.
On the other hand, it could be saying that this specific deity wants to cut in line to the front of the false idol queue.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
It's not really open to interpretation. It really is intended as all other gods are false.
davidelkins
Registered Senior Member
Let's operate by establishing one fact at a time with Bearer. Bearer, do you agree that there are mutations and that mutations are heritable? Wikipedia defines mutations as, "the permanent alteration of the nucleotide sequence of the genome of an organism, virus, or extrachromosomal DNA or other genetic elements. Mutations result from errors during DNA replication or other types of damage to DNA, which then may undergo error-prone repair (especially microhomology-mediated end joining[1]), or cause an error during other forms of repair,[2][3] or else may cause an error during replication (translesion synthesis). Mutations may also result from insertion or deletion of segments of DNA due to mobile genetic elements.[4][5][6] Mutations may or may not produce discernible changes in the observable characteristics (phenotype) of an organism. Mutations play a part in both normal and abnormal biological processes including: evolution, cancer, and the development of the immune system, including junctional diversity." DE