Theology is science, Scripture is not

[Lawdog]

Cottontop: "If it's Man's responsibility to make sure as many men and women hear the Word of God as possible, doesn't that make God a bit capricious."

Thats a fair Question. The Church answers this way:
It is Man's responsibility, we are responsible for one another.
Why? Christ wants us to share in his salvific work.
He has already paid the debt for sin, yes.
However, each of us he invites in the joyous and glorious
work of Salvation (different than Redemption).
Salvation occurs each time someone in
Christ dies and is saved (not before then).
Redemption (payment for sin) occured only once.

By uniting our personal suffering with Christ Crucified
we earn graces which help in
the Salvific work of bringing souls to God.

God knows that generally Man will screw this
invitation up royaly by sinning. In response
to this, He floods the world with
abundant graces and makes sure
as much as human free will allows
that everyone has a chance to hear
God's Truth and accept it. He cannot
interfere in our Free Will, so if I decide that
X pagan should not hear the Truth,
God allows this sin to occur,
and the person might never hear
about Christ. That would be on My Soul,
not the pagan's.

 

[Cottontop3000]

Lawdog,

Yes, but what about the one little starving child in Africa that nobody get's a chance to minister to? Is he/she doomed to Hell because of the oversight? Or is there an exception clause in the Bible that I do not know about?

Also, I really would like to know your opinion of Hell. I've heard so many different interpretations over the years.

CT3000

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog,

Yes, but what about the one little starving child in Africa that nobody get's a chance to minister to? Is he/she doomed to Hell because of the oversight? Or is there an exception clause in the Bible that I do not know about?

Also, I really would like to know your opinion of Hell. I've heard so many different interpretations over the years.

CT3000

The starving child in Africa is as Christ
Jesus: "For as you do unto these least ones, you do unto me"

Therefore, we should give aid to
countries in need, to the best of our circumstances.

Hell is, unfortunately, real. Its not a scare tactic.
Christ is continually warning us about it in sacred scripture

I should try to concentrate on God
and his wonders and sublime goodness instead.

 

[SnakeLord]

Seriously Lawdog, you need help - and I mean "real" help, not "voices in your head" kind of help.

 

[Catastrophe]

Lawdog

Do you have a degree in theology?


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...9237/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/026-5509471-1304404

Synopsis
This is a controversial account of Christ's life which challenges accepted Christian doctrine. Basing her theories on 20 years of close study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospels, the author propounds that Jesus was the leader of a radical faction of Essene priests; that he was not of virgin birth; that he did not die on the cross; that he married Mary Magdalene, fathered a family, and later divorced; and that he died sometime after 64AD.

From the Back Cover
Jesus was the leader of a radical faction of Essene priests. He was not of virgin birth. He did not die on the Cross. He married Mary Magdalene, fathered a family, and later divorced. He died sometime after AD 64.

This controversial version of Christ's life is not the product of a mind which wants to debunk Christianity. Barbara Thiering is a theologian and a biblical scholar. But after over twenty years of close study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospels she has developed a revolutionary new theory which, while upholding the fundamental faith of Christianity, challenges many of its most ingrained supernaturalist beliefs.

Jesus the Man will undoubtedly upset and even outrage those for whom Christianity is immutable and unchallengeable. But for many who have found the rituals of the contemporary church too steeped in medieval thinking, it will provide new insights into Christianity in the context of the 1990s.

 

[Cottontop3000]

The starving child in Africa is as Christ
Jesus: "For as you do unto these least ones, you do unto me"

Therefore, we should give aid to
countries in need, to the best of our circumstances.

But DOES this child go to hell because she hasn't accepted Christ as her personal savior when she dies at age 7 from starvation or a death squad in Sudan? I don't think you've answered this question adequately.

Hell is, unfortunately, real. Its not a scare tactic.
Christ is continually warning us about it in sacred scripture

How can you possibly say that this is not a scare tactic? It preys upon some of our deepest fears. Fears that might not reside in our minds but for this. Can you imagine not being raised with this fear? What LIFE might be like?

I should try to concentrate on God
and his wonders and sublime goodness instead.

How about the wonders and goodness of men, women and children that were raised without the fear of burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Instead of going through life worried that you are unworthy of salvation, how about going through life knowing that everything will be okay, regardless of how you decide to live your life? Knowing that each and everyone of us is a God in our own right, and capable of so much more than blind submission to a Jealous God? Less worry; more hope for the future of mankind as a whole, versus the future of only the priviledged of mankind. Atheists, Agnostics, Unbelievers, Freethinkers and Infidels can, and do, live by a set of ethics and morals that not only benefit mankind, but exlude God and "His" scare tactics.

Where will it get us? Who knows? Maybe the stars someday.....! Maybe our own version of Heaven in this universe. Maybe the only version we might ever get a chance to know, if you and yours are wrong. Who knows?

 

[(Q)]

Therefore, we should give aid to
countries in need, to the best of our circumstances.

Why should we? Why doesn't your Christ help them? Whe doesn't he answer their prayers?

Those who do not live in third world nations are continually thanking their lord for the abundance they receive - why then should the third world nations not receive the same abundance?

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog

Do you have a degree in theology?

Jesus the Man will undoubtedly upset and even outrage those for whom Christianity is immutable and unchallengeable. But for many who have found the rituals of the contemporary church too steeped in medieval thinking, it will provide new insights into Christianity in the context of the 1990s.

I am working on getting a degree.

Respectfully, I dont think we should look our noses down on the medieval period. Anyone that does so, especially a scholar, betrays ignorance. Medieval scholars in my opinion, though their were less literate folks back then, were more advanced than scholars today.

Anyway, the premise of this book you show is trying to discover the real Historical Jesus, as if our vision of Jesus had been skewed by thousands of years of Christians trying to make Jesus out in their own way.

This immediately smacks of faithlessness. As if to say: Jesus is not a living God or the Holy Ghost does not guide men into a true understanding of the personal life of Jesus, throughout history. God has no power speak through the Traditions of the Church concerning himself.

Thats just one objection, and respectful of where you may be at in your discernment of Christ, nevertheless, also remember, that even if Jesus were married, do you think his teachings woulkd be any different?

I also cant understand why it is that anyone would think that the rituals of the Church are too medieval. I go to Church these days and all the Medievcal rituals are gone, to my horror, there is nothing mystical or sublime in worship, especially the music.

 

[Lawdog]

But DOES this child go to hell because she hasn't accepted Christ as her personal savior when she dies at age 7 from starvation or a death squad in Sudan? I don't think you've answered this question adequately.[/QUOTE]
No, that is contrary to God's mercy.

How can you possibly say that this is not a scare tactic? It preys upon some of our deepest fears. Fears that might not reside in our minds but for this. Can you imagine not being raised with this fear? What LIFE might be like?



How about the wonders and goodness of men, women and children that were raised without the fear of burning in a lake of fire for eternity? Instead of going through life worried that you are unworthy of salvation, how about going through life knowing that everything will be okay, regardless of how you decide to live your life? Knowing that each and everyone of us is a God in our own right, and capable of so much more than blind submission to a Jealous God? Less worry; more hope for the future of mankind as a whole, versus the future of only the priviledged of mankind. Atheists, Agnostics, Unbelievers, Freethinkers and Infidels can, and do, live by a set of ethics and morals that not only benefit mankind, but exlude God and "His" scare tactics.

Hey, we might have been raised with this fear, but at least we had loving parents and cereal for breakfast. Starving African children might not have either.

Without this fear, my life would be one horrible self destructive
sin after another, I would have done great evils by now,
and probably have my own jet. what can I say? Thats me without
God's teaching. Also, why bother to worship or follow God, after all,
if Hell doesnt exist, he did not save us from anything terrible.
(This is what Jehova Witnesses believe).

 

[(Q)]

Starving African children might not have either.

Clearly, the work of your god.

Without this fear, my life would be one horrible self destructive
sin after another, I would have done great evils by now

Then you have truly abondoned all reason and rationale and are unable to think for yourself.

 

[Lawdog]

Q, Why the hostile sounds?

Christ answers peoples prayers, not, for example, by making food magically appear, but through his mercy that dwells in the hearts of those who provide.

 

[(Q)]

Christ answers peoples prayers, not, for example, by making food magically appear, but through his mercy that dwells in the hearts of those who provide.

So, he offers less mercy to Africans?

Q, Why the hostile sounds?

Ignornace and contradiction.

 

[§outh§tar]

"Theology is a science." Thomas Aquinas

Think how much hubris there is in disagreeing with this:

1) You are disagreeing with one of the greatest theologians since Christ. Who are you? What degrees do you have? Any in Theology?

And what degree did Aquinas have?

2) One might say that Medicine is not scientific, since doctors rely very much on intuition and methods of healing on a molecular level they dont fully understand. Yet, if a doctor told you that you needed healing or you would die, would you not seriously consider his words?

How much weight would you put into a doctor's opinion if that doctor did not have a medical degree?

All the same, today, people in their madness say that they can design their own theology and scoff at the learned teachings of priests and ministers.

(words of healing to be accepted eventhough it may be bitter medicine)

The beautiful argumentum ad verecundiam. Ever so impertinent when used in matters where who holds the title of 'greatest theologian since Christ' varies widely.

Try again.

 

[Lawdog]

Aquinas had a Doctorate of Saced Theology from the University of Paris.

Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom.

My argument is not "Ad verecundiam" because that refers to relying on the opinion of false authority.

In all matter of faith and morals, as well as tradition,
rites, and custom, as well as ethical matters
involving scientific investigation (what limits should be set
and what methods are ethical or not),
The Catholic Church is the only lawful Authority,
solely appointed by God for this purpose,
whose union is signified by her singular Pontiff,
the vicar of Christ on Earth
and her teachings are the fullness of Truth,
without flaw or error, they are NOT mere opinion,
nor are they misled by psuedoscience.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

Fear of God is the Beginning of Wisdom.

But fear is the weapon of the terrorist and the tyrant.

But more accurately fear of the god concept is indeed the beginning of wisdom since to believe in such things instead is the epitome of ignorance and false hope, the very antithesis of wisdom.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

In all matter of faith and morals, as well as tradition,
rites, and custom, as well as ethical matters
involving scientific investigation (what limits should be set
and what methods are ethical or not),
The Catholic Church is the only lawful Authority,
solely appointed by God for this purpose,
whose union is signified by her singular Pontiff,
the vicar of Christ on Earth
and her teachings are the fullness of Truth,
without flaw or error, they are NOT mere opinion,
nor are they misled by psuedoscience.

In reality and in history the extreme arrogance and unilateral declaration of perfection by an unelected body almost certainly indicates the exact opposite is true.

 

[Lawdog]

Cris, you search for Immortality,
but we who believe have found the source
from which Eternal Life may be obtained.
Do you think that your Pride in Humanist doctrines
may be blinding you to this,
and to a healthy fear of the Lord?

 

[Catastrophe]

My first reaction was that theology is not a science, but then I thought if psychiatry is the study and treatment of mental disease why not?

As far as Barbara Thiering is concerned I believe she is to be congratulated for proving that Jesus was just a man who has been used by a bunch of power seeking mentally diseased 'humans' to hoodwink the credulous .

 

[pavlosmarcos]

may be blinding you to this,
and to a healthy fear of the Lord?

why is it you people, cant seem to crasp the fact, that an atheist has no believe in gods/god devil/demons etc..
you cannot fear that which does not exist, that is for the irrational believers.

oh and incidently having a fear of a thing, certainly is not healthy, that is an oxymoron.

why also would you fear your so called god of love????.

 

[Raithere]

The Science of Theology uses reason drawn from logical irrefutables and non-contradictories to come to a deeper understanding of God and Reality.

I'd be interested to hear about and discuss these "logical irrefutables and non-contradictories".

It CHECKS its findings against the Truths already known to be factual from Church Tradition and Revelation.

And what about the "Truths" already known to be factual through other religions?

So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher science, namely, the science of God and the blessed. Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God.

Augustine, is basing his argument on a premise that he has yet to provide proper argument for. The question is not; assuming "sacred doctrine" is true, is theology a science. The question is whether or not "sacred doctrine" is true in the first place. The rest of the argument is irrelevant until this point is determined. The comparison of perspective and music to geometry and mathematics is irrelevant at this point.

~Raithere