Theists (Mostly Xains)muslims etc..Need To sort out!

[path]

You are right, I don't know what made me expect an intelligent contribution to the thred.

So you won't quantify I expected as much Your comment that islam advances human development while christiananity retards it is absolutely hollow. The only thing you have to argue is the old cliche that "muslims aren't following islam any longer" otherwise the evidence on the ground suggests that this is a fallacy.

I know that christianity did not vanish in one day or at all. But it was rational thought versus Chrisitian doctrine. Rationality won, If christianity had persisted the way it was, Europe would still be in it's dark ages.

What was european thought born from where was it incubated? This statemnet is simply an assumption on your part which is unprovable since europe has long since been out of the stone age.

And the Indian genocide might not have happened.

You mean native american, indian genocide was a purely muslim affair

 

[Bruce Wayne]

can you prove that without using the qu'ran.

is there a documented history, or is it just hear say!!.

and the same question to you surrender.
thank you

Don't be lazy, do a search. " 'abbas ibn Firnas" is the name.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So I guess you aren't going to answer the question are you.

I woudn't have answered it like that if I thought it was a serious question.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So you won't quantify I expected as much Your comment that islam advances human development while christiananity retards it is absolutely hollow.

It is not, Islam holds (both temporal and religious) knowledge at a high position. The prophet -peace be upon him- litteraly said, the search for knowledge is a (Muslim)duty. Medieval church prohibited experimental surgery and viewed it as a sin.

The only thing you have to argue is the old cliche that "muslims aren't following islam any longer" otherwise the evidence on the ground suggests that this is a fallacy.

What empiric evidence do you have? btw you say it is a cliche yet you do not say it is not true.

What was european thought born from where was it incubated?

It's called renaissance, It ccame after death. It was first born in the classical world. It survived in Muslim hands. And then it returned to Europe pushing Christianity out of the way.

This statemnet is simply an assumption on your part which is unprovable since europe has long since been out of the stone age.

I never said it was. Rather likely suffices.

You mean native american, indian genocide was a purely muslim affair

There is quite a difference between maltreatement of soldiers of war and taking out hte population of an entire continent, leaving only a handfull to be put in zoos. certainly, you cannot but see the difference.

:m:

 

[path]

It is not, Islam holds (both temporal and religious) knowledge at a high position. The prophet -peace be upon him- litteraly said, the search for knowledge is a (Muslim)duty. Medieval church prohibited experimental surgery and viewed it as a sin.

Look here can you see the difference between the 2 examples you gave? One is 1 aspect of islamic scriptural doctrine the other is an example of religious authorities interpretation of scriptural doctrine (ie can you show me where the bible says anything regarding experimental surgery?) Unless there is such a prohibition in scripture it could just as easily be claimed that the church fathers of the time weren't practising christianity properly (as you claim is the case with islam now). I believe it is also found in hadith a passage to the effect that only a fool searches for answers when he has been given the answer. (?)

What empiric evidence do you have? btw you say it is a cliche yet you do not say it is not true.

What we have as evidence is the rapid development of the christianized world in the last seven hundred years and the steady systematic decline of the islamic world. Is it really likely that muslims from north west africa to the hindu kush all got it wrong when they had for reference (as muslims claim) an uncorrupted book of divine revelation? I honestly find it hard to be believe so many people with such diverse backgrounds could all be incompetent

It's called renaissance, It came after death. It was first born in the classical world. It survived in Muslim hands. And then it returned to Europe pushing Christianity out of the way.

It obviously took root in fertile ground in europe, why not in muslim hands? That is there was obviously something in the mindset of christian europe which allowed this to occur. You could talk to a pygmy all you want about science and the humanities you aren't going to get very far.

I never said it was. Rather likely suffices.

Personal opinion nothing more.

There is quite a difference between maltreatement of soldiers of war and taking out hte population of an entire continent, leaving only a handfull to be put in zoos. certainly, you cannot but see the difference.

I have read estimates that between 50-80 million indians lost thier lives as a result of several centuries of jihad against the polytheists of india, not to mention the untold rape of cultural and monetary treasures that helped drive those jihads. The only difference was the number of inhabitants in those lands before christian and muslim invasion @ 40 million in all the americas and @200 million in the indian subcontinent. The christians were thereby able to subdue the americas while the muslims were in the end unable to subdue india

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Look here can you see the difference between the 2 examples you gave? One is 1 aspect of islamic scriptural doctrine the other is an example of religious authorities interpretation of scriptural doctrine (ie can you show me where the bible says anything regarding experimental surgery?) Unless there is such a prohibition in scripture it could just as easily be claimed that the church fathers of the time weren't practising christianity properly (as you claim is the case with islam now). I believe it is also found in hadith a passage to the effect that only a fool searches for answers when he has been given the answer. (?)

No, no you are mistaken. In Islam scripture only rules. That means that if someone that is viewed as a Muslim doesn't uphold the scripture his act is not islamic. In the christianity we are speaking of, the pope is an institution. He is sustained by God and is free of errors while he speaks of religious matters.

Now that you have the answers, don't be a fool. Btw, I would still like to know where that hadith comes from if it really is one, off course.

What we have as evidence is the rapid development of the christianized world in the last seven hundred years and the steady systematic decline of the islamic world. Is it really likely that muslims from north west africa to the hindu kush all got it wrong when they had for reference (as muslims claim) an uncorrupted book of divine revelation?

Simple because political power was taken away from the religious minded. Muslim rulers started trusting in the temporal and lost the divine. Previously the divine issued a system of "balances and checks" that was taken away by the rulers.

I honestly find it hard to be believe so many people with such diverse backgrounds could all be incompetent

That is because your knowledge of the matter at hand is wanting.

It obviously took root in fertile ground in europe, why not in muslim hands?

It was not merely taking root there, it was flourishing.

That is there was obviously something in the mindset of christian europe which allowed this to occur.

Indeed the increasing limitation of the church's powers and authority.

You could talk to a pygmy all you want about science and the humanities you aren't going to get very far.

Yea, whathever..

Personal opinion nothing more.

Obviously!

I have read estimates that between 50-80 million indians lost thier lives as a result of several centuries of jihad against the polytheists of india, not to mention the untold rape of cultural and monetary treasures that helped drive those jihads. The only difference was the number of inhabitants in those lands before christian and muslim invasion @ 40 million in all the americas and @200 million in the indian subcontinent. The christians were thereby able to subdue the americas while the muslims were in the end unable to subdue india

You are mixing up things dude, suppose there indeed were numbers like these (I do not deny it since I have never read about it) you are still mixing the racist extermination of another people and casualties of war.

If you say that non-combattants were killed too, then I direct you to the fact that scripture prohibits killing non-combatants. (see first part of response And your earlier post)

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

can you prove that without using the qu'ran.

is there a documented history, or is it just hear say!!.

and the same question to you surrender.
thank you

Here, Al-khawarizmi came up with algebra while working on a method to calculate the religious heritage mechanisme.

http://www.stetson.edu/~efriedma/periodictable/html/Am.html
http://www.disenchanted.com/dis/lookup.html?node=1859

:m:

 

[path]

No, no you are mistaken. In Islam scripture only rules. That means that if someone that is viewed as a Muslim doesn't uphold the scripture his act is not islamic. In the christianity we are speaking of, the pope is an institution. He is sustained by God and is free of errors while he speaks of religious matters.

Your understanding of the pope and christianity at large is wanting Bruce. There are some who consider the pope the authority on earth in religious matters they are called roman catholics then amongst roman catholics there are many who have little regard for what the pope says that does NOT make them non-christians. The pope is NOT seen as GOD he is not perfect, you might find a handful who believe that but I would be surprised (I was a roman catholic ). Again apples and oranges where in christian scripture is there a ban on experimental surgery, not your understanding of what you think christianity is or isn't but in BLACK AND WHITE.

Now that you have the answers, don't be a fool. Btw, I would still like to know where that hadith comes from if it really is one, off course.

I will try and find it

Simple because political power was taken away from the religious minded. Muslim rulers started trusting in the temporal and lost the divine. Previously the divine issued a system of "balances and checks" that was taken away by the rulers.

Isn't this exactly what you were claiming happened in the christianized world that lead to the renaissance? Why the difference?

That is because your knowledge of the matter at hand is wanting.

Do you have proof that there was widespread incompetance? Enlighten me then.

It was not merely taking root there, it was flourishing.

I never said it hadn't I was restricting my comments to the last 700 years(see my earlier posts) by which time it was waning in the islamic world.

Indeed the increasing limitation of the church's powers and authority.

Could you please provide proof that "increasing limitation of the church's powers and author" caused the renaissance.

You are mixing up things dude, suppose there indeed were numbers like these (I do not deny it since I have never read about it) you are still mixing the racist extermination of another people and casualties of war.

Bruce to the muslims who invaded India the hindus were nothing but impious idolators, wicked polytheists. Little thought was given to the death of hindus because they were considered subhuman (impious idolators, wicked polytheists) How is this different from racism? shall we term it religicism? Both modes of thought see others as less than yourself. Casualties of war is one thing, we aren't talking about casualties of war we are talking about slaughter of the native peoples. btw where was the islamic sense of justice? what were muslims doing invading india in the first place?

If you say that non-combattants were killed too, then I direct you to the fact that scripture prohibits killing non-combatants. (see first part of response And your earlier post)

Seems like that is all relative isn't it.

Chapter 9: PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4321:
It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4322:
It is narrated by Sa'b b. Jaththama that he said (to the Holy Prophet): Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of the polytheists during the night raids. He said: They are from them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4323:
Sa'b b. Jaththama has narrated that the Prophet (may peace be upon him) asked: What about the children of polytheists killed by the cavalry during the night raid? He said: They are from them.

Booty killing captives and enslaving women and children of the disbelievers

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4360:

Then God revealed the verse:" It is not befitting for a prophet that he should take prisoners until the force of the disbelievers has been crushed..." to the end of the verse:" so eat ye the spoils of war, (it is) lawful and pure. So Allah made booty lawful for them."
_________________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4364:
It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Umar that the Jews of Banu Nadir and Banu Quraizi fought against the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who expelled Banu Nadir, and allowed Quraiza to stay on, and granted favour to them until they too fought against him. Then he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

_____________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4370:

So the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).
______________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4405:

Umar b. Khattab came, approached the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, aren't we fighting for truth and they for falsehood? He replied: By all means. He asked: Are not those killed from our side in Paradise and those killed. from their side in the Fire? He replied: Yes.
______________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4464:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Ishaq that 'Abdullah b. Yazid went (out of the city) with people for offering" Istisqa" ' prayer (for rainfall). He offered two rak'ahs. Then he prayed for rain. That day I met Zaid b. Arqam. There was only one man between me and him (at that time). I asked him: How many military expeditions did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) undertake? He said: Nineteen expeditions. I asked him: On how many expeditions did you accompany him? He said: On seventeen expeditions. I asked: Which was the first expedition he led? He answered: Dhat-ul-, Usair or 'Ushair.

Here

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Your understanding of the pope and christianity at large is wanting Bruce. There are some who consider the pope the authority on earth in religious matters they are called roman catholics then amongst roman catholics there are many who have little regard for what the pope says that does NOT make them non-christians. The pope is NOT seen as GOD he is not perfect, you might find a handful who believe that but I would be surprised (I was a roman catholic ). Again apples and oranges where in christian scripture is there a ban on experimental surgery, not your understanding of what you think christianity is or isn't but in BLACK AND WHITE.

You were a roman catholic. Then you must know that what I said was correct.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/p/po/pope.html
“
he status and authority of the Pope in the Catholic Church was dogmatically defined by the First Vatican Council in its Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ (July 18, 1870). The first chapter of this document is entitled "On the institution of the apostolic primacy in blessed Peter", and states that (s.1) "according to the Gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the lord" and that (s.6) "if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ Himself: let him be anathema".

The Dogmatic Constitution's second chapter, "On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs", states that (s.1) "that which our lord Jesus Christ [...] established in the blessed apostle Peter [...] must of necessity remain forever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time", that (s.3) "whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ Himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church", and that (s.5) "if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord Himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema".

The Dogmatic Constitution's third chapter, "On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff", states that (s.1) "the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christianss, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all Christian people", that (s.2) "by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that the jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate" and that "clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world".

The powers of the Pope are defined by the Dogmatic Constitution (ch.3, s.8) such that "he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgement" and that "the sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgement thereupon" (can. 331 defines the power of the Pope as "supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church, and he can always freely exercise this power"). It also dogmatically defined (ch.4, s.9) the doctrine of Papal infallibility, sc. such that

when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed His church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

See also: Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Ecumenical Council, College of Bishops
“

But you said that I was wrong, where it is plain that I was accurate. This means one of two things. Either you were ignorant of a pivotal part of your former religion or you were deliberately misleading in your last post in this thread.

I said:

In the christianity we are speaking of, the pope is an institution. He is sustained by God and is free of errors while he speaks of religious matters.

You response was, other than that my knowledge is wanting, that:

"The pope is NOT seen as GOD he is not perfect"

In fact you said I was wrong and then shifted me to a position I did at all not mention. I can but conclude that you were, once again less than honest. Or were you truly ignorant of the position the pope has in roman catholicism?

Isn't this exactly what you were claiming happened in the christianized world that lead to the renaissance? Why the difference?

The difference is between a hierarchichal religion with anti-scientifc postures and a religion that is scientific at its core. In Europe the monopoly of power was broken, In Islam it started to be established.

Do you have proof that there was widespread incompetance? Enlighten me then.

I do. Yet it is not worthwhile committing them to the board at this moment.
Do you have proof that it does not exist?

I never said it hadn't I was restricting my comments to the last 700 years(see my earlier posts) by which time it was waning in the islamic world.

Btw, the real problem that took hold was not the absence of new ideas. They are all over the place. The greatest cataclysm was the Mongol invasion and the later colonialism –which stopped the industrialization of Egypt (!) and the democratization of Tunisia, Egypt, Iran.

The Muslim individual continued to give.

Btw, there was no renaissance in the Islamic world at the time, since there was no death. Europe called a glimpse of Muslim civilization a renaissance.

Could you please provide proof that "increasing limitation of the church's powers and author" caused the renaissance.

I don't think that lowly of your mental capabilities as to presume you really cannot find them by yourself.
Hints: Machiavelli vs the Church. Protestantism (!)

Bruce to the muslims who invaded India the hindus were nothing but impious idolators, wicked polytheists. Little thought was given to the death of hindus because they were considered subhuman (impious idolators, wicked polytheists)

Believers and non-believers are the subjects of Allah. You cannot commit genocide against His subject and think you are doing good.

How is this different from racism? shall we term it religicism? Both modes of thought see others as less than yourself.

Regardless of whether it really exists or not it is incompatible with Islam.

Casualties of war is one thing, we aren't talking about casualties of war we are talking about slaughter of the native peoples.

Again I do not know Indian history. I don’t not know whether that is true and if so whether it happened in that sense.

btw where was the islamic sense of justice? what were muslims doing invading india in the first place?

My guess would be the natural evolution of states and empires. Dominate or be dominated, if not now later. Again at this stage I am not well-read in Indian history. I could be that they wanted they wanted to inform the people about Islam, but that the rulers refused. Free speech is worth fighting for too, I guess.

Seems like that is all relative isn't it.

“
Chapter 9: PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4321:
It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4322:
It is narrated by Sa'b b. Jaththama that he said (to the Holy Prophet): Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of the polytheists during the night raids. He said: They are from them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Book 019, Number 4323:
Sa'b b. Jaththama has narrated that the Prophet (may peace be upon him) asked: What about the children of polytheists killed by the cavalry during the night raid? He said: They are from them.
”

The fact that Sa’d –may Allah be pleased with him- asked whether it was allowed under those particular circumstances means that it was not allowed to do so in general.

This is chapter 8:

”
Chapter 8: PROHIBITION OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN WAR
Book 019, Number 4319:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.
Book 019, Number 4320:

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.
”

Killing women and children in those instances were not the rule, they were not the strategy, but the exception. It merely reflected the smaller room of maneuver (i.e. darkness).

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a ******** (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle.
(Sahih al-Bukhârî, Volume 3, Book 47, Number 786)

Abu Bakr advised Yazid: "I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camel except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."
(Mutta Malik, Book 21, Section 3, Number 10)

Booty killing captives and enslaving women and children of the disbelievers

“
Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4360:

Then God revealed the verse:" It is not befitting for a prophet that he should take prisoners until the force of the disbelievers has been crushed..." to the end of the verse:" so eat ye the spoils of war, (it is) lawful and pure. So Allah made booty lawful for them."

Read!


Book 019, Number 4360:
It has been narrated on the authority of 'Umar b. al-Khattab who said: When it was the day on which the Battle of Badr was fought, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) cast a glance at the infidels, and they were one thousand while his own Companions were three hundred and nineteen. The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) turned (his face) towards the Qibla Then he stretched his hands and began his supplication to his Lord:" O Allah, accomplish for me what Thou hast promised to me. O Allah, bring about what Thou hast promised to me. O Allah, if this small band of Muslims is destroyed. Thou will not be worshipped on this earth." He continued his supplication to his Lord, stretching his hands, facing the Qibla, until his mantle slipped down from his shoulders. So Abu Bakr came to him, picked up his mantle and put it on his shoulders. Then he embraced him from behind and said:. Prophet of Allah, this prayer of yours to your Lord will suffice you, and He will fulfil for you what He has promised you. So Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, revealed (the Qur'anic verse):" When ye appealed to your Lord for help, He responded to your call (saying): I will help you with one thousand angels coming in succession." So Allah helped him with angels.
Abu Zumail said that the badith was narrated to him by Ibn 'Abbas who said: While on that day a Muslim was chasing a disbeliever who was going ahead of him, he heard over him' the swishing of the whip and the voice of the rider saying: Go ahead, Haizi'm! He glanced at the polytheist who had (now) fallen down on his back. When he looked at him (carefully he found that) there was a scar on his nose and his face was torn as if it had been lashed with a whip, and had turned green with its poison. An Ansari came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and related this (event) to him. He said: You have told the truth. This was the help from the third heaven. The Muslims that day (i. e. the day of the Battle of Badr) killed seventy persons and captured seventy. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to Abu Bakr and 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them): What is your opinion about these captives? Abu Bakr said: They are our kith and kin. I think you should release them after getting from them a ransom. This will be a source of strength to us against the infidels. It is quite possible that Allah may guide them to Islam. Then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: What is your opinion. Ibn Khattab? He said: Messenger of Allah. I do not hold the same opinion as Abu Bakr. I am of the opinion that you should hand them over to us so that we may cut off their heads. Hand over 'Aqil to 'Ali that he may cut off his head, and hand over such and such relative to me that I may but off his head. They are leaders of the disbelievers and veterans among them. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) approved the opinion of Abu Bakr and did not approve what I said The next day when I came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), I found that both he and Abu Bakr were sitting shedding tears. I said: Messenger of Allah, why are you and your Companion shedding tears? Tell me the reason. For I will weep ate, if not, I will at least pretend to weep in sympathy with you. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I weep for what has happened to your companions for taking ransom (from the prisoners). I was shown the torture to which they were subjected. It was brought to me as close as this tree. (He pointed to a tree close to him.) Then God revealed the verse:" It is not befitting for a prophet that he should take prisoners until the force of the disbelievers has been crushed..." to the end of the verse:" so eat ye the spoils of war, (it is) lawful and pure. So Allah made booty lawful for them."

_________________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4364:
It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Umar that the Jews of Banu Nadir and Banu Quraizi fought against the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who expelled Banu Nadir, and allowed Quraiza to stay on, and granted favour to them until they too fought against him. Then he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

_____________________________________

Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4370:

So the Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).
______________________________________

In the quote of chapter 9 you wrote the title. But now that you are quoting chapter 21 you don’t give the title. I think that you deliberately left that out.

Here is the title:

Chapter 21: JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING THOSE GUILTY OF BREACH OF TRUST AND MAKING THE PEOPLE OF THE FORT SURRENDER ON THE ARBITRATION OF A JUST PERSON

‘nuff said.

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4405:

Umar b. Khattab came, approached the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, aren't we fighting for truth and they for falsehood? He replied: By all means. He asked: Are not those killed from our side in Paradise and those killed. from their side in the Fire? He replied: Yes.
______________________________________

That is very true indeed. To Allah, those that believe and are thankfull are not like those that deny and fight Him. Quite logical too, if you think about it.

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4464:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Ishaq that 'Abdullah b. Yazid went (out of the city) with people for offering" Istisqa" ' prayer (for rainfall). He offered two rak'ahs. Then he prayed for rain. That day I met Zaid b. Arqam. There was only one man between me and him (at that time). I asked him: How many military expeditions did the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) undertake? He said: Nineteen expeditions. I asked him: On how many expeditions did you accompany him? He said: On seventeen expeditions. I asked: Which was the first expedition he led? He answered: Dhat-ul-, Usair or 'Ushair.

Yet in another post you said he -peace be upon him- was a coward. Rather inconsistent of you”, eh?

On the overall I must conclude that either you are not that bright or that you don’t mind being less than honest to “prove” a point.

:m:

 

[path]

You were a roman catholic. Then you must know that what I said was correct.



But you said that I was wrong, where it is plain that I was accurate. This means one of two things. Either you were ignorant of a pivotal part of your former religion or you were deliberately misleading in your last post in this thread.

No I told you the truth plain and simple a definition is all well and good but reality doesn't always match the definition in an encyclopedia, theory and pratice can be very different. Here, just as a starter for you.

To be aware of all this, and to say so, is scarcely anti-Catholic. What may be reflected in the results of Greeley's survey, rather, are two strikingly opposed tendencies within American Protestantism and Catholicism. On the one hand, evangelical Protestants tend to take their own churches’ – and other churches’ – theology very seriously, and to perceive the authenticity of individual religious identity as being intimately and inextricably bound up with the firm affirmation of specific doctrinal propositions. American Catholics, by contrast, are often accustomed to distancing themselves from many of the things in which they are expected to believe. For more than a few of them, it is not uncommon to regard dogma as the province of the remote (and largely out-of-touch) Pope and Curia and College of Cardinals; in the minds of such Catholics, their own identity as full and authentic members of the Church is unshakable and independent of the contents of papal bulls or the particulars of personal belief.

I'm not saying that one of these tendencies is better than the other. It does, however, seem supremely ironic that today's rigidly dogmatic Catholic Church has bred a generation of American Catholics many of whom, simply in order to be able to function in the real world, have had to learn to put oppressive theological dictates in their place

Article

And right to the point

"there is something American Catholics find in Catholicism that is deep and nurturing and doesn't have very much to do with the Vatican and the bishops and all the rest" applies equally to Austrians and Canadians and Germans and Italians. In addition, in the developed world, most of Carlin's "loyal" Catholics follow their conscience whenever they don't trust the official party line. The vast majority of sexually active Catholics of childbearing age use artificial contraceptives. The opinion polls Carlin dismisses give us a far more realistic notion of the sensus fidelium than Carlin would admit. In a 1992 Gallup poll 90% of American Catholics said that a person could dissent from church doctrine and remain a good Catholic, and only 26% considered belief in papal infallibility necessary

article

I could go on and on but I don't think it is neccesary you get the point

You response was, other than that my knowledge is wanting,
In fact you said I was wrong and then shifted me to a position I did at all not mention. I can but conclude that you were, once again less than honest. Or were you truly ignorant of the position the pope has in roman catholicism?

And that is still my response.
You have a very hefty post here and I am somewhat pressed for time right now so I will address the rest as time allows

 

[path]

The difference is between a hierarchichal religion with anti-scientifc postures and a religion that is scientific at its core. In Europe the monopoly of power was broken, In Islam it started to be established.

Nonsense there is nothing scientific about the quran or hadith this has been done a thousand times and the supposed science of the quran always falls flat on it's face.

I do. Yet it is not worthwhile committing them to the board at this moment.
Do you have proof that it does not exist?

What is wrong Bruce running on empty? You are claiming that

"Muslim went backward since they disregarded religion"

So back it up, oh I forgot, it isn't worthwhile at this moment

Btw, the real problem that took hold was not the absence of new ideas. They are all over the place. The greatest cataclysm was the Mongol invasion and the later colonialism –which stopped the industrialization of Egypt (!) and the democratization of Tunisia, Egypt, Iran.

Can you tell me the timeframe of the mongol invasion (Pssst, I can if you need help just ask)
Can you tell me the time frame of colonization? (Pssst, remember I am here for you)
Togther they were a rather short blip on the timeline nothing like the centuries the Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Sicilians, Indians, spaniards etc. endured at the hands of muslims.

The Muslim individual continued to give.

What exactly?

Btw, there was no renaissance in the Islamic world at the time, since there was no death. Europe called a glimpse of Muslim civilization a renaissance.

No the "golden age of islam" was their renaissance fueled by arab expansion and conquest. History is full of the rise and fall of exansionist peoples who have their heyday then fade, The Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians, the Greeks the Celts, the Romans, the Huns, the Germans, the Arabs, the Mongols, the Turks etc etc. The main difference was that the arabs also brought their religion which remained.

I don't think that lowly of your mental capabilities as to presume you really cannot find them by yourself.
Hints: Machiavelli vs the Church. Protestantism (!)

Well then you must think lowly of your own research skills if you want me to research your claims for you, nice try.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No I told you the truth plain and simple a definition is all well and good but reality doesn't always match the definition in an encyclopedia, theory and pratice can be very different. Here, just as a starter for you.



Article

And right to the point



article

I could go on and on but I don't think it is neccesary you get the point



And that is still my response.
You have a very hefty post here and I am somewhat pressed for time right now so I will address the rest as time allows

Concerning this post let me say:

RollOnFloorLaughingEyesOut

Nice try, very cute, but not on me.

We are not talking about america or italian american catholics. We are talking about the Renaissance. If you are not just playing dumb, contemplate on this: the Renaissance happened before the united states of a. was founded.

And in case you have not thaught this true: you just proved my point. Just think:
before: Pope had the authority+scientific death of roman catholics.
afterope authority restricted+scientific progress.

Why not mend your ways instead of persisting on misleading?? Why path??

:m:

 

[path]

Concerning this post let me say:

RollOnFloorLaughingEyesOut

Nice try, very cute, but not on me.

We are not talking about america or italian american catholics. We are talking about the Renaissance. If you are not just playing dumb, contemplate on this: the Renaissance happened before the united states of a. was founded.

My bad I got into modern catholic practice simple mistake nothing more.

And in case you have not thaught this true: you just proved my point. Just think:
before: Pope had the authority+scientific death of roman catholics.
afterope authority restricted+scientific progress.

Here is another mindboggler for you.
before: The middle east hosts some of the most advanced civilizations on the planet.
after: Islam comes and slowly leads the middle east back to third world status.

In the words of one of "islams" greatest scientific and medical minds Abu Bakr Muhammad b. Zakariya ar Razi

Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. The so-called holy scriptures are worthless and have done more harm than good, whereas the "writings of the ancients like Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and Hippocrates have rendered much greater service to humanity

Why not mend your ways instead of persisting on misleading?? Why path??

I can admit when I make a mistake, not a problem.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Nonsense there is nothing scientific about the quran or hadith this has been done a thousand times and the supposed science of the quran always falls flat on it's face.

Again you run towards the seemingly easy and threaded way.

I said it was scientific at its core. The Qur'an, -May Allah help me memorize it completely- urges us Muslims and Mankind in general to learn to ponder on the world and the signs of Allah.

AL-ALAQ (THE CLOT, READ)

096.001
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
PICKTHAL: Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,
SHAKIR: Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

096.002
YUSUFALI: Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
PICKTHAL: Createth man from a clot.
SHAKIR: He created man from a clot.

096.003
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
PICKTHAL: Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
SHAKIR: Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,

096.004
YUSUFALI: He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
PICKTHAL: Who teacheth by the pen,
SHAKIR: Who taught (to write) with the pen

096.005
YUSUFALI: Taught man that which he knew not.
PICKTHAL: Teacheth man that which he knew not.
SHAKIR: Taught man what he knew not.

Briefly. These verses are the firts to be revealed. The first word was read. It then goes to to show the importance of reading and learning. Since Allah stresse -of all the things He has given us- our creation and our faculty to learn.

AND

AL-BAQARA (THE COW)

002.269
YUSUFALI: He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He giveth wisdom unto whom He will, and he unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good. But none remember except men of understanding.
SHAKIR: He grants wisdom to whom He pleases, and whoever is granted wisdom, he indeed is given a great good and none but men of understanding mind.

The verse demonstrates the power of Allah over mankind. Then Goes on to praise peope who think. Which in fact is an urge for Muslims to think and comprehend.

AND

TA-HA (TA-HA)

020.114
YUSUFALI: High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
PICKTHAL: Then exalted be Allah, the True King! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Qur'an ere its revelation hath been perfected unto thee, and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge.
SHAKIR: Supremely exalted is therefore Allah, the King, the Truth, and do not make haste with the Quran before its revelation is made complete to you and say: O my Lord ! increase me in knowledge.

This verse again accentuates the importance of knowledge and commands man to seek it. And how is man to get knowledge? not by sitting and waiting, but by reading and pondering: see previous verses too. Especially in the first one it is said that Allah teaches man with the pen.

AND

AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)

003.190
YUSUFALI: Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding,
SHAKIR: Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.

003.191
YUSUFALI: Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
PICKTHAL: Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
SHAKIR: Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:

Here Allah, tells us that there is much to be learn from natural phenomena for the men of understanding. Here the Muslim is expected to be trying to understand the world and the way it came about.

And

AL-ANKABOOT (THE SPIDER)
029.020
YUSUFALI: Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): Travel in the land and see how He originated creation, then Allah bringeth forth the later growth. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

SHAKIR: Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

This is a direct summoning for the Muslim to investigate the natural world.

AND

AZ-ZUMAR (THE TROOPS, THRONGS)

039.009
YUSUFALI: Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say: "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.
PICKTHAL: Is he who payeth adoration in the watches of the night, prostrate and standing, bewaring of the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, (to be accounted equal with a disbeliever)? Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.
SHAKIR: What! he who is obedient during hours of the night, prostrating himself and standing, takes care of the hereafter and hopes for the mercy of his Lord! Say: Are those who know and those who do not know alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful.

Again Allah praises and underscores the importance of thinking.

AND

AL-MUJADILA (SHE THAT DISPUTETH, THE PLEADING WOMAN)

058.011
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! when it is said unto you, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, Allah will give you ample, and when it is said: Rise up, then rise up. Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and Allah is Aware of what you do.

In Arabic only the word knowledge is mentionned. I am not contesting the first "word-translator" nut. Even if it were only mystic knowledge. Since religious knowledge is not the monopoly of clergy this indicates this would indicate that the individual Muslim is also supposed to learn and understand his religion and not wait for some pope to do that for him. This remarkably indicates that Islam is not hierachical as Roman Catholism is.

These are Quotes from the Prophet -may peace be upon him:

"Seek knowledge even in China"

"Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave"

"Verily the men of knowledge are the inheritors of the prophets".

Again the scientific core of Islam. Especially the first tells us a lot. Since the chinese could not give the Muslim any religious knowledge and since religion was already perfected. There rests only temporal knowledge to be gained from China.

What is wrong Bruce running on empty?

No don't worry, plenty more where that is from.

You are claiming that

So back it up, oh I forgot, it isn't worthwhile at this moment

You see now, that I process your -what is supposed to be- arguments Your worth as an opponent keeps diminishing (it s pretty low now). So I tend to give more wheight to others reading our conversation. The way I see it now, I claimed something and you did. If any reader were to follow this thread I think he gets a fairly good idea of whome (sp?) to trust and of whome to view with apprehension.

Can you tell me the timeframe of the mongol invasion (Pssst, I can if you need help just ask)
Can you tell me the time frame of colonization? (Pssst, remember I am here for you)
Togther they were a rather short blip on the timeline nothing like the centuries the Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Sicilians, Indians, spaniards etc. endured at the hands of muslims.

OHH the ignorance. Tell me braniac, Is the distruction of countries and the death of up to two million people in only one city!, which happened to be the civilizational capital, where most knowledge is stored not enough a cataclysm. The Mongols then were subdued by the religion itself.

The destructive policies of (especially English) colonialism were even more thorough. (did colonialism ever end?)

The Greeks and the ...etc -argument again shows you failure to keep it relevant. That is totaly irrelevant to the matter at hand.

What exactly?

Read, get to know the world. As much as I enjoy straightening you out. I think it is time to show initiative. And as I said a long time ago, when learning about Islam try and view it from both sides. You can claim that is just what you already did, yet your record contradicts you.

No the "golden age of islam" was their renaissance fueled by arab expansion and conquest. History is full of the rise and fall of exansionist peoples who have their heyday then fade, The Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Egyptians, the Greeks the Celts, the Romans, the Huns, the Germans, the Arabs, the Mongols, the Turks etc etc. The main difference was that the arabs also brought their religion which remained.

The golden age of islam was the naissance of Islam not the renaissance. And as we have discussed elsewhere the matter is far beyond that of military discipline.

Well then you must think lowly of your own research skills if you want me to research your claims for you, nice try.

Wrong conclusion, I already gave you the instances. And the fact that you did not understand the point based on the hints, show a wantin' knowledge of "Western" civilization.

In the end of this conversation:

You were misleadingly using you past history with roman catholism.
You were misleadingly "quoting" parts of Islamic scripture.
You keep evading discussion to what you mistakenly think is an easier position to defend.

Are you worth my reactions?


:m:

 

[path]

Again you run towards the seemingly easy and threaded way.

I said it was scientific at its core. The Qur'an, -May Allah help me memorize it completely- urges us Muslims and Mankind in general to learn to ponder on the world and the signs of Allah.

AL-ALAQ (THE CLOT, READ)

096.001
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
PICKTHAL: Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,
SHAKIR: Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

096.002
YUSUFALI: Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
PICKTHAL: Createth man from a clot.
SHAKIR: He created man from a clot.

096.003
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
PICKTHAL: Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
SHAKIR: Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,

096.004
YUSUFALI: He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
PICKTHAL: Who teacheth by the pen,
SHAKIR: Who taught (to write) with the pen

096.005
YUSUFALI: Taught man that which he knew not.
PICKTHAL: Teacheth man that which he knew not.
SHAKIR: Taught man what he knew not.

Is this supposed to mean something to a non-muslim? Is this part of what you are claiming means the quran is scientific at it's core?

AL-BAQARA (THE COW)

002.269
YUSUFALI: He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He giveth wisdom unto whom He will, and he unto whom wisdom is given, he truly hath received abundant good. But none remember except men of understanding.
SHAKIR: He grants wisdom to whom He pleases, and whoever is granted wisdom, he indeed is given a great good and none but men of understanding mind.

So it is up to allah to grant wisdom? Does this say we need to go out and research or that allah will grant us wisdom. Should we just pray for allah to grant us wisdom?

TA-HA (TA-HA)

020.114
YUSUFALI: High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
PICKTHAL: Then exalted be Allah, the True King! And hasten not (O Muhammad) with the Qur'an ere its revelation hath been perfected unto thee, and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge.
SHAKIR: Supremely exalted is therefore Allah, the King, the Truth, and do not make haste with the Quran before its revelation is made complete to you and say: O my Lord ! increase me in knowledge.

Again begging allah for knowledge.

AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)

003.190
YUSUFALI: Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding,
SHAKIR: Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.

003.191
YUSUFALI: Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
PICKTHAL: Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
SHAKIR: Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:

Contemplate the world aroud you, wow this is revolutionary stuff Bruce.

And

AL-ANKABOOT (THE SPIDER)
029.020
YUSUFALI: Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): Travel in the land and see how He originated creation, then Allah bringeth forth the later growth. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

SHAKIR: Say: Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things.

Open your eyes and look around. wow refer to above.

AZ-ZUMAR (THE TROOPS, THRONGS)

039.009
YUSUFALI: Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say: "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.
PICKTHAL: Is he who payeth adoration in the watches of the night, prostrate and standing, bewaring of the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, (to be accounted equal with a disbeliever)? Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Are those who know equal with those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed.
SHAKIR: What! he who is obedient during hours of the night, prostrating himself and standing, takes care of the hereafter and hopes for the mercy of his Lord! Say: Are those who know and those who do not know alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful.

Understanding reads faith in islam. Still no scientific core, when are you going to get to that?

AL-MUJADILA (SHE THAT DISPUTETH, THE PLEADING WOMAN)

058.011
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! when it is said unto you, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, Allah will give you ample, and when it is said: Rise up, then rise up. Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and Allah is Aware of what you do.

Granted mystic knowledge?! Is this science? or divine providence?

"Seek knowledge even in China"

"Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave"

"Verily the men of knowledge are the inheritors of the prophets".

Again the scientific core of Islam.

Science is never mentioned

No don't worry, plenty more where that is from.

Is the rest just as irrelevant?

You see now, that I process your -what is supposed to be- arguments Your worth as an opponent keeps diminishing (it s pretty low now). So I tend to give more wheight to others reading our conversation. The way I see it now, I claimed something and you did. If any reader were to follow this thread I think he gets a fairly good idea of whome (sp?) to trust and of whome to view with apprehension.

Yes, to paraphrase, you Claimed that christianity made the west ignorant and islam made the middle east intelligent. Yet you haven't done anything to back up your claim other than post a few quranic quotes and make a reference to Dante and the reformation. Is it really so difficult to backup your argument and is it really neccesary to ceaselessly insult people for asking you to? Oh and I couldn't agree more regarding allowing people to make up their own minds

OHH the ignorance. Tell me braniac, Is the distruction of countries and the death of up to two million people in only one city!, which happened to be the civilizational capital, where most knowledge is stored not enough a cataclysm. The Mongols then were subdued by the religion itself.

The capital of a portion of the islamic world was destroyed are you saying that ALL the knowledge of islam was there and only there? The egyptians survived and in fact defeated the mongols in Palestine. The Arabian peninsula was untouched as was all of north africa and the turks managed to emerge relatively unscathed as well. Again if as you claim islam has science at it's core then I doubt the backward slide would have continued after the mongols left. In addition if you are saying that the mongol invasion which was devastatining but very brief in duration caused centuries of technological backsliding in islamic lands then you are shooting a whole in your theory that christianity caused the same backsliding in europe.

The destructive policies of (especially English) colonialism were even more thorough. (did colonialism ever end?)

Again brief period and regardless the middle east was a shambles before the colonial powers got there. The west had nothing to do with the state of the islamic world in the 18th century before they arrived.

Read, get to know the world. As much as I enjoy straightening you out. I think it is time to show initiative.

Bruce I have spent almost 9 years of my life living outside of my country of birth. I have no doubt read more than you have so you need to take your own advice before you can straighten anyone out.

And as I said a long time ago, when learning about Islam try and view it from both sides. You can claim that is just what you already did, yet your record contradicts you.

The simple fact that someone doesn't come to the same conclusions as you could just as easily reveal your bias Bruce.

The golden age of islam was the naissance of Islam not the renaissance. And as we have discussed elsewhere the matter is far beyond that of military discipline.

Did I mention military discipline?

Wrong conclusion, I already gave you the instances. And the fact that you did not understand the point based on the hints, show a wantin' knowledge of "Western" civilization.

Poor form here Bruce you made a claim like so

Indeed the increasing limitation of the church's powers and authority

Then you cannot be bothered to back it up

In the end of this conversation:

You were misleadingly using you past history with roman catholism.

No I got sidetracked in a post and apologized.

You were misleadingly "quoting" parts of Islamic scripture.

I am not done yet I said that earlier I will get to it. In addition ALL the scripture I quoted was valid nothing made up. You are just upset because you don't feel I worked hard enough to justify those passages regarding killing.

You keep evading discussion to what you mistakenly think is an easier position to defend.

No you keep making claims you won't back up.

Are you worth my reactions?

The question is are your reactions worth my time?

 

[path]

Actually a possible lead for the "people don't follow islam correctly anymore" argument. I chanced over this

By the end of the tenth century the influence of the Mu'tazili school had waned, for complicated political reasons, and the official doctrine had become that of i'jaz, or the "inimitability" of the Koran. (As a result, the Koran has traditionally not been translated by Muslims for non-Arabic-speaking Muslims. Instead it is read and recited in the original by Muslims worldwide, the majority of whom do not speak Arabic. The translations that do exist are considered to be nothing more than scriptural aids and paraphrases.) The adoption of the doctrine of inimitability was a major turning point in Islamic history, and from the tenth century to this day the mainstream Muslim understanding of the Koran as the literal and uncreated Word of God has remained constant.

Which led me to this

From wikiverse

Look at this

It originated in 8th century in al-Basrah when Wasil Ibn 'Atta' left the teaching lessons of a-Hasan al-Basri after a theological dispute, and hence he and his followers were termed Mu'tazili. Later, Mu'tazilis called themselves Ahl al-'Adl wa al-Tawhid (People of Justice and Monotheism) based on the theology they advocated.
Mu'tazili theology developed on logic and rationalism from Greek philosophy, and sought to combine Islamic doctrines with the former, and show that they are inherently compatible.

During this period, several questions were being discussed among Muslim theologians, such as, whether the Quran is created or eternal, whether evil can be created by God, the issue of predestination vs. free will, whether God's attributes in the Quran are to be interpreted allegorically or literally, and whether sinning believers will have eternal punishment in hell.

Also during this period, there were several heresies within Islam, as well as some atheist attacks on it, for example the apostate Ibn al-Rawindi.

In response to all that, Mu'tazili thought developed to address all these issues.

I don't know much about the history of this school of thought but maybe you want to look into it.