Theists explain somthing to me

TheHeretic

Registered Senior Member
What makes the human species superior to everything else in the universe?
The human species does not posses the ability to break the laws of physics.
The white man and the black man are both equal. Why? because they are Humans. A man and a rock are both equal. Why? because they are both matter.
 
A man and a rock are both equal. Why? because they are both matter.

Really? I have never seen a rock talk. I have never seen a rock build a shelter for itself. I have never seen a rock compose a beautiful piece of music. We as humans are an extremely highly developed species. We are by far the most intelligent species on the planet. We have emotional and psychological feelings that even the highest developed animals do not have. I can't really speak for the religious reasons, but scientifically, nothing on Earth even comes close to the level of advancement of the Human race. We are clearly superior to any other life-forms on this planet.
 
Hard to say if we are superior or not. Other species do not have the high likelihood of destroying themselves...
 
A_F rocks dont need to build shelters for them self, but they do build shelters for you and the animals etc

They also compose beautiful wonderful music, you just haven't unblocked yer senses yet....think about the Himalayas, Snowden, Kilmanjaro...and so on
Rock moves and allows me to be across the see to you on my rock which keeps me dry from the sea

There is a delightful saying i have in my notes from an Indigenous person who says how every rock, Tree...everything has a story ......not those words but similar

understanding the Intelligence of Nature doesn't demean you............it profoundly emphasiziexs your MEANING, because you ARe Nature....you flower from Nature and decay into Nature and regenerate from Nature....how can just you
be alive. you skin, organs, cells....mind are the interelationing with Intelligent environmenting
 
Aborted_Fetus said:
We are clearly superior to any other life-forms on this planet.
The rats are more numerous. The crocodiles more ancient. The extremophiles more tolerant. Most species are less given to mass suicide. You appear to be judging superiority with an anthropocentric ruler. I suspect the very act of self declaration of superiority disqualifies you from being accorded that honour.
 
TheHeretic said:
The human species does not posses the ability to break the laws of physics.

Saints are defined by their ability to break the laws of physics. The Vatican has a library full of documentation concerning such things. The Sufi Traditions of Ancient Zoroastrianism and the Yogic Traditions from the Indic Civilizations also document quite a number of Miracles... some of them recent.

The last case I have heard of is from out of Southern India. At the Sterling Hospital researchers were able to persuade an old man named Prahlad Jani to stay with them for 10 days. Well, Prahlad Jani says he was not eaten or drank anything for over 60 years, and under uninterrupted observation did not eat or drink for 10 days and showed no debilitation in the least. Their conclusion was that Prahlad Jani had found a way to become something of a Perpetual Motion Machine -- to operate as an Energy Output System with no Discernable Energy Input. Is that not what we would call a violation of the Law of Physics? They submitted their Study to NASA and asked for funds for a followup study, supposing if they could figure out the Source of this Miracle, then it would allow Astronauts to be able to travel through Space without requiring a Spaceship busting at the seams with boxes of protein bars and packages of Tang orange juice.
 
We as humans are an extremely highly developed species.

By your own conveniently arbitrary standards, sure why not.

Egoist..

You appear to be judging superiority with an anthropocentric ruler. I suspect the very act of self declaration of superiority disqualifies you from being accorded that honour.

Bingo.
 
Leo Volont said:
and under uninterrupted observation did not eat or drink for 10 days and showed no debilitation in the least. Their conclusion...
They did report that Jani lost weight during their observation, which would indicate that not eating was having an effect and that Jani was incapable of maintaining his health indefinitely. There was no conclusion because the "study" (I use the term loosely, no papers were ever published so we have no idea what the controls and methods were) was concluded prematurely because his followers starting coming to the hospital in droves and interfered with hospital operations. This is hardly conclusive evidence of the miraculous.

~Raithere
 
TheHeretic said:

What makes the human species superior to everything else in the universe?

Generally speaking, the condition is a subconscious result of being human. We look around, we see nothing like us. We ask certain questions of the Universe, and before we ever figured the idea of rational, we asserted certain answers.

In the twenty-first century, many find rather naîve the notion that the Universe is a creation specifically intended for the human endeavor, but it took until the nineteenth and twentieth for the species to grasp the necessary abstractions to make such ideas acceptable. Certainly, there are theologies wherein humanity does not matter that much in the general scheme, but the particulars of the faith reflected that priority. Polytheism as monotheism? It's a natural result: what binds the diverse deities to their roles? That authority becomes the monotheistic source. In such schemes as the Greek or Roman panthea, that source seemed to matter very little in everyday faith. The gods that made humanity important did so because that was their justification for existing: it was, quite essentially, their job. Why else did Zeus intervene in Phaeton's misfortune? Yes, the job is to drive the sun, but why drive the sun? For the living, perhaps? Or so it seems. And all that from what may have been a comet once upon a sometime.

Humanity answers to itself. For a twist on a philosophical classic, if dogs had religion, how would they account for their place in the human household? It's easy enough to account in theological terms for their place on someone's dinner menu, but what of the family dog? Would the theology assert that dogs are subservient to humans? What justifies that heirarchy? (What is the original sin of canine theology? In Christianity, we have the story of Eden; Jomo Kenyatta, in Facing Mount Kenya, notes a tale justifying male supremacy as a result of female foolishness and decadence when the world was entrusted to women. And so on.) Would the theology perhaps consider humanity as a gift from God? Servants to accommodate those of God's righteous holy fido?

Superstition often regards disease as a punishment from God. The Bible tells of the Earth's resources being created for human accommodation. Modern society has time to accuse selfishness, but what of a primal theology born in a time when "selfish" was, in fact, the means of perpetuation and survival? It is in such a period of human development that the essential seeds of common religious experience were sewn. Religion as a human institution addresses fundamental questions about the relationship between the human and the Universe, the fundamental philosophical questions of "life, the Universe, and everything".

What I'm having a hard time getting to is the idea that this focus on how everything else relates to the self, and how that translates into the religious focus that puts each religious group at the center of the Universal experience, is somewhat natural. Certainly the creation myths of the Hopi don't tell of God creating the Hebrews and favoring them. Nor, as we are aware, do the Hebrew creation myths assert that the primary experience of God runs through the Japanese. From the self to kin; from there to larger and larger social classifications as the human endeavor evolved into the cosmopolitan first world that has the luxury of caring to explore or not such questions about the religious experience: each new common allegiance within a religious paradigm leads to reconsideration of terminology and boundaries. Much of this reconsideration is subconscious, and is only apparent when subclassifications within the larger body social identify as independent collectives in conflict with one another--e.g. doctrinal and political disputes between factions or other such groupings.

A passage that I resurrect periodically in discussions:

The members of all communities, including nations and whole civilisations, are infused with the prevailing ideologies of those communities. These, in turn, create attitudes of mind which include certain capacities and equally positively exclude others.

The ideologies may be so ancient, so deep-seated or so subtle that they are not identified as such by the people at large. In this case they are often discerned only through a method of challenging them, asking questions about them or by comparing them with other communities.

Such challenge, description, or questioning, often the questioning of assumptions, is what frequently enables a culture or a number of people from that culture to think in ways that have been closed to most of their fellows.


Emir Ali Khan

If we go so far as to make a general denunciation of the presupposition of human superiority, we must look at current generations as victims of an ancient ideology. That's a bit severe, though. Rather, it's only the most recent century or so of human existence that it has even become possible to discuss the idea in such terms. In that time, many individuals and even small groups have struck on positive ideas resulting from renouncing the general presupposition, but one of the stumbling blocks not yet cleared from the road is the focus of the counterpoint on an implied counterpoint: If we cannot suppose ourselves superior, then we must decide what is superior to us. Abstraction seems to confuse some people in that discussion, and so the examination focuses on superficial issues.

Consider music as a vague but useful comparison: Music theory has much beauty and potential. Amazing human responses are evoked by some theoretically-solid music. But there are theorists who think that what defies conventional theory isn't music. To the other are those who reject music theory outright. Music is, after all, human. So there are those who lend their humanity to their interpretation of theory and create some genuinely amazing music. And yet the public gets by on a steady diet of Britney Spears, Garth Brooks, and Chumbawumba.

There is nothing to support the assertion that to attempt 100% conformity with conventional musical theory will produce a worthwhile result. There is nothing to support the assertion that rejection of musical theory will produce a spiritual result. Some of it's just trash.

In objective terms, we cannot declare humanity superior. We can say that by certain criteria, humanity seems superior. We can say that intuitively, humanity seems superior. But the alleged objective criteria, and indeed the scope of those criteria, as well as the basis for intuition, are all products of humanity and thus predisposed toward such a notion.

The presupposition is a vestigial effect of a prior practicality. In the modern era, it is also a confusing issue, since the question certainly pertains to anything we humans do, but there will always be disagreement as to what relevance the idea has in any given circumstance. Generally speaking, people don't care, or can't afford to care. Nuclear war, for instance, seems an easy consideration: "Nuclear war is bad, m'kay?" Drilling the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge isn't so clear. Issues pertaining to the spotted owl certainly weren't so clear.

In the end, the question becomes one of necessity: when is the presupposition necessary? Facing extinction, humanity will assert itself at all costs. Left to decadence, it will assert itself recklessly. Do we respect the assertion or exploit it? And that seems to be the difference.

The human and the rock are equal according to certain criteria. Are those criteria valid and relevant in any given circumstance?
 
"The Vatican has a library full of documentation concerning such things." Yeah Im sure those documents are full of the truth. The Vatican is dirty and will do anything to protect their religion.
 
tiassa,

As grace would have it, God (the Christian one) is not at all centered on any specific group, but rather extends salvation to "all men". Of course, Calvinism disputes this but for the sake of argument let's just say so.

But perhaps we could simply admit we don't know what qualifications are necessary for claiming superiority, sit in a circle, and sing kumbaya?
 
Intelligence is the result of physical interations not supernatural phenomenon, Intelligence is very abundant through out the universe. Our Intellegence is not special, our intellegence makes us special.
 
"We are clearly superior to any other life-forms on this planet." How bout ill throw you in a cage with a lion and see what happens. You can preach all you want to the lion but its still going to kill you. We may be the most intelligent species on earth, but we are not superior to anything. Everything in the univese is made of matter and we interact using the rules of physics, although we have not discovered that "final theory" it does exist. Everything that ever happens is the direct result of past events and to say that you are better than a rock is absurd, thats like telling a man with brown hair you are better than him because you have blond hair. In addition what will happen when we discover life more intelligent than us. Im sure religion will change as it does with all major scientific discoveries. They will change or deny.
 
TheHeretic said:
A man and a rock are both equal. Why? because they are both matter.
Heresy I say! :D

Really, this question seems to be relevant to both theists and atheists. Why, then, the title?

Anyway, complexity adds another dimension (maybe +1billion).
 
§outh§tar said:

As grace would have it, God (the Christian one) is not at all centered on any specific group, but rather extends salvation to "all men". Of course, Calvinism disputes this but for the sake of argument let's just say so.

I ask this carefully .... And?

But perhaps we could simply admit we don't know what qualifications are necessary for claiming superiority, sit in a circle, and sing kumbaya?

But why stop there? Eat mushrooms, drop acid, e-bomb, whatever. See what happens from there. Do the macarena for six hours and then fuck. Why not?

Or, more reasonably, we could simply consider our priorities more carefully.

I can only reiterate:

In the end, the question becomes one of necessity: when is the presupposition necessary? Facing extinction, humanity will assert itself at all costs. Left to decadence, it will assert itself recklessly. Do we respect the assertion or exploit it? And that seems to be the difference.

The human and the rock are equal according to certain criteria. Are those criteria valid and relevant in any given circumstance?

That way we can leave the cheese in the kitchen.
 
Aborted_Fetus said:
Really? I have never seen a rock talk. I have never seen a rock build a shelter for itself. I have never seen a rock compose a beautiful piece of music.

I've never seen a man that could endure for 4.6 billion years. I have never seen a man that could hold back the sea. I have never seen a man that could be a shelter for another man. I have never seen a man stand for a few million years then erode into billions upon billions of smaller versions of himself then allow the waves of the sea he was holding back for millions of years to caress him for a few million more.

I'd say all matter has attributes that make it unique or special. The attributes of man pale in comparisson to those of an entire planet. A planet that is, essentially, a rock.
 
tiassa said:
Are those criteria valid and relevant in any given circumstance?
And in today's headlines:
Tragedy in Burning Building
...Though rescuers reportedly did their best the weight of some of the rocks that were removed significantly slowed their efforts and thus many rocks in the bulidng were charred and people reduced to ash...
In other news:
Hero Saves Rock from Sinking
... "I saw that he was in difficulty and screaming for help but he was much further away than the sinking rock. I am only one man, so I decided to grab the rock and take it to shore, then return to him as quickly as possible. But I guess I just wasn't quick enough." So said the acclaimed hero during an interview...
 
Humans, as a species, have a moral code that is not found in other species
 
I didn't say that man wouldn't be biased toward his own kind :)

But then rocks also aren't afflicted with the sometimes-affliction-sometimes-beneficial predisposition to have beliefs. I think that is ultimately what gave rise to complexity in human civilizations and thus set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

But in the end, humans are only superior in the eyes of other humans... the rest of the universe could give a shit.
 
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