Trek:
There's also the matter of evidence, which we discussed. Either there is evidence that God is real, or there isn't.
You've been asked many times now whether you've seen any evidence that God is real. Each time you've been asked, you've failed to come up with anything. In fact, most of the time it looks like you're trying to avoid the question. "I don't need your evidence, Bud!" seems to be your attitude.
Well fine, Trek. It's great that you're willing to believe something without any evidence... I guess. (Or is it?)
You and I are not the same, in that regard.
If you have no evidence, then I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole God thing.
Coming back to the title of the thread, the challenge was to "prove you god or gods aren't just fiction". Why are you posting in such a thread, if you have no answer to that challenge?
It's almost uncanny how closely your arguments, poor as they are, match those of Jan Ardena. You said you've read some of the threads in which he posted. You might save yourself some time by reviewing how I (along with other people) demolished his weak arguments in those threads. Don't repeat his errors.
Anyway, back on topic. You have it backwards, just like Jan used to get things backwards. The "camp we decide to attach ourselves to" is, for most of us, determined by our understandings and beliefs. The understandings and beliefs come first, then the choice of "camp".
It doesn't make any intellectual sense to randomly choose a "camp" and then go looking only for those "understandings" that support the position we've randomly chosen to commit to, for no good reason. That kind of approach is intellectually vacuous and backwards.
When it comes to religion, let me give you an example. I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a child. My "understandings" of God and Christ were derived from what I was taught in church, in school and in Sunday school. Later, my "understandings" were supplemented by what I learned from the bible. I fell into the "camp" of Christianity almost by default. I didn't know any better, for a long time. But eventually, I found out about critical thinking, science, scholarship, skepticism, and more. I gained some new "understandings" that challenged my existing "understandings". And then, later still, I "attached myself" to a new "camp". My mind had been literally changed. I realised that, although I had thought at one time that I had good reasons for believing God was real, I was wrong. I shouldn't have been so easily convinced that God was real. I realised that my God belief was not built on solid ground. So, I took the intellectually honest approach and made an informed choice to move "God" into my list of many "not established" notions.
When you come to a more appropriate understanding of evidence and the like, I hope you'll have the intellectual integrity to join me in my much more sensible "camp", Trek. (Bonus: it's also a lot more fun. No need to worry about eternal punishment, the capricious whims of a malicious deity and such. Or, at least, to postpone such worries unless and until they become supported by evidence.)
Don't kid yourself, Trek. There's nothing subtle about that.
You feel that there's a God in your heart. Okay. Lots of people feel like you do. I understand it. I used to kid myself that I felt it too, when I was Christian. At the time, I was quite sincere, I assure you; I had no idea I was fooling myself. But I was a kid. I don't know what your excuse is, here and now. You're an adult.
Also, don't fool yourself that atheists can't grasp the idea of your special "connection" with God. I've been exactly where you are, with exactly the same special connection to God in my head that you believe you have. I understand. I sympathise. You're stuck, for now. But you can fix that. All you have to do is to be a little more honest with yourself. I know that, for some people, it can be very scary, though. Maybe you're one of those people. Maybe you need your God. If so, it's all good. You do you.
Stating the bleeding obvious there, Trek.
The belief that Trump will win the election is the very mindset that creates the barrier to believing that Harris will win. The belief that raspberry is tastier than strawberry is the mindset that creates the barrier to stopping being a raspberry fancier. The Trump voter has to stop being a Trump voter in order to accept that Harris is the preferable candidate.
Thanks for letting us in on the secret, Captain Obvious.
Interesting. Tell me, Trek. Do you view atheists as being "unclean", in some kind of moral sense? Do you think it's possible that this sort of revulsion could have been indoctrinated into you? Think about it. Take some time. What have your religious leaders told you about atheists, over the years? Could they be wrong (about this or about anything)?
Then we are in agreement. I didn't expect you would have anything useful to share on this topic.
Why are you posting in this thread? It appears you have no interest in making any argument for believing in your God.
What kind of connection do you have with your God, Trek? Explain, please. Also, can you tell me how you know your connection is real and not just in your head?
What I see is somebody who isn't being honest with himself. You're running away from all the hard questions because you're afraid of the answers you might find.
There really are very few of those, you know. Most of the traffic, these days, is going in the other direction. It's the atheists breaking down the barriers, although "intellect" isn't usually the most prominent issue when it comes to "deconversion".
Jan was unusual in that he imagined that he could just know things. He was very captured by magical thinking. Like you seem to, he imagined that God sort of magically connected into his brain and that was how he could be 100% confident that God was real. He thought that atheists lacked the special God-detection brain cells that he had, or else somehow managed to turn them off or ignore their magical signals. Actually, now that I think about it, Jan thought that atheism was an enormously powerful idea - powerful enough to override direct communication from his God, apparently. It would be interesting to talk to him again to find out why he thought that atheism was so powerful.
What do you think?
