That blankness is also what I feel like about things I would rather not think of or remember.
Like a tootache - simply a blankness, a non-entity without substance or meaning.
IOW - denial.
Theist or not: What image of God do you actually have in your mind?
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That blankness is also what I feel like about things I would rather not think of or remember.
Like a tootache - simply a blankness, a non-entity without substance or meaning.
IOW - denial.
It's mainstream Christian thinking ... but not only Christian. It's how a zealot of probably any denomination thinks. - "Beat down everything the outsider/newcomer might say. Dismiss and invalidate every question that he asks, every feeling that he has."
I don't know how other people make it through that. I couldn't.
Its one thing to present how one's purposes can be misaligned .... its another to suggest that all purposes are misaligned (and hence one arrives at the fact of the matter by locating the most repugnant)
But then we are back at the beginning: Which religious tradition to give credence they have those clear notions?
And please don't again bring it back to one's personal values, because different religious traditions disagree on the importance of them.
Unless you wish to imply that the nature of God and ourselves is such that as long as we act by that which we deem our highest values, we will eventually reach God. (Based on the assumption that if we always drive ourselves to act on the highest that we know, this will gradually bring us to ever higher levels.)
Do you think that the three modes of nature provide a sliding scale how all values can be graded?
Probably in the direction of the first few verses of BG Ch17
You'll probably suggest that I am one of "those who undergo severe austerities and penances not recommended in the scriptures, performing them out of pride and egoism, who are impelled by lust and attachment, who are foolish and who torture the material elements of the body as well as the Supersoul dwelling within".
That is allright, I think it is a fair assessment.
I am not sure how to formulate this. It is as if from your perspective, the exclusivistic choice between, say, a school in Christianity and some other tradition doesn't really exist. The concept of henology comes in handy here.
Although such a choice certainly exists from the perspective of many religious traditions - that one has to choose between X or Y, and choose the right one, or be damned forever.
We have been over this several times, from different perspectives. I am not sure where the problem is for me. I remain terrified by the prospect that I would adopt the wrong religion and then end up in hell for all eternity.
I'll put it this way:
On the grounds of what may I reject an idea of God that I find absurd or not the highest I can conceive of?
How can I justify not going along with some fire and brimstone version of god?
In effect, I wish to avoid taking responsibility for my choice of religious path, because I think the burden of responsibility, as it is usually presented by Christians, is absurd.
That is allright, I think it is a fair assessment.
I am not sure how to formulate this. It is as if from your perspective, the exclusivistic choice between, say, a school in Christianity and some other tradition doesn't really exist. The concept of henology comes in handy here.
Although such a choice certainly exists from the perspective of many religious traditions - that one has to choose between X or Y, and choose the right one, or be damned forever.
We have been over this several times, from different perspectives. I am not sure where the problem is for me. I remain terrified by the prospect that I would adopt the wrong religion and then end up in hell for all eternity.
I'll put it this way:
On the grounds of what may I reject an idea of God that I find absurd or not the highest I can conceive of?
How can I justify not going along with some fire and brimstone version of god?
In effect, I wish to avoid taking responsibility for my choice of religious path, because I think the burden of responsibility, as it is usually presented by Christians, is absurd.
Actually that's more of a description of the full on imperosnalists, who's way of life would probably make your eyebrows fall off if you simply heard about it ... generally in kali yuga we are too weak to be greatly anything, even greatly rajasic or tamasic
if you are going to say "damned forever" you are bringing an idea to the table about one's constitutional position with god that deserves scrutiny.
If you have a clear idea of one's constitutional position with god (as well as god's nature plus the phenomenal world) you wouldn't have a problem, regardless whether you went for a schismatic christian/vedic approach or a holistic henological version of either
It begins with the foundation of god's nature, the constitutional nature of the jiva and the nature of the phenomenal world - that's at least how I reject the notion of eternal damnation as absurd (since the only medium for eternal anything performed out of a constant identity is medium of liberation .... and while one can spend an awfully long time in the phenomenal world falling for the same old stupid ideas, it is simply too alien to us by nature (birth/death/old age and disease) to permanently house anything that is sat cit and ananda
because it is rajasic and/or tamasic for a start
Pretending one is a mode of nature (ie something that is merely an automaton and is constitutionally incapable of making decisions or accepting responsibility for them) is also not a solution.
Sometimes ideas like that even develop in bhakti, where one thinks that the decision to take to devotional service (and thus enter into the eternal realm of devotion) is effectively the last choice one ever makes as a jiva (since then one will be on auto pilot, navigated by the internal potency or whatever). Actually the opposite is true (ie, decisions in the material atmosphere practically amount to nil, due to the fickle nature of matter and the modes that govern the calls in the said atmosphere)
I imagine they are the ones who eat once a year, breathe through their pores, don't ever wash themselves or cut their hair and nails and spend years standing on one foot, while doing cosmically difficult mental exercises?
So much for taking pride in one's austerities ...
I am sorry to be so persistent with this, I am not sure what exactly my problem here is.
It could actually be as simple as a negative feeling fleshing itself out into a negative thought, a cognitive distortion fuelled by a physiological problem.
That is self-explanatory, isn't it?
My own argument for considering eternal damnation absurd is because e.d. implies that God's nature and the soul's nature are fundamentally, irreconcilably different; that God's sense of good and right and the soul's sense of good and right are fundamentally, irreconcilably different. Because such difference would be necessary for something like e.d. to exist. But if such difference exists, then how come it exists, and doesn't it imply that souls are not related to God, and if they are not ...?
E.d fits well with a concept of a demigod or an alien God, but not with a Progenitor God.
You mean ...anything that is _not_ sat cit and ananda -?
But what is left then?
I have actually seen a devotee make that exact argument. She replied to a request at a forum, and when the asker thanked her, she said she isn't to be thanked, but God, and that now her will is one with God's, she has no independent will anymore, she is merely a tool in God's hands. It was spooky to read that.
I have also heard HDG speak of this as one of the KC myths.
yup
(you can pick your eyebrows off the floor now
)lol
granted in kaliyuga we can be greatly proud
Or something as simple as attributing a material cause as sufficient to stagnate spiritual endeavor
Just highlighting the threshold apprehension
... this is also a good point
I mean that the material atmosphere remains eternally foreign to us due to issues of sat cit ananda (issues that even filter through the lenes of our material existence - eg : we always buy the "new" toothpaste despite not much really happening on the toothpaste development scene for the past 50 years)
walking in the shoes of free will that are already on our feet of course
HDG is full of many salient observations
wodomisawesome
Registered Member
hi. revisiting from a bygone era.
anyone please let me know if my avatar is offensive.
as far as the thread...
honestly i have never had any sort of vision of God, or whatever you want to call the being that watches over us all. i've never really thought about it. if i try to envision such a being, my mind goes completely blank. i believe that may stem from a deep-seated belief that the being in question is too far beyond comprehension to really see in the sense that mortal beings do see. such a being would most likely be more otherworldly than we could actually fully perceive; something so far removed from our realm of physical laws and, therefore, scientific explanation that to even begin to try to imagine the nature, visual or otherwise, of the Creator would be...well. ridiculous i suppose. uh, no insult intended in any way.
i don't, do not, feel church is required. i don't believe that another mortal being is capable of telling me more about my beliefs than i could discover on my own. i feel the bible, while compelling and inspiring, is a conglomeration of stories (gospels, i suppose) that were hand-picked by the authority of the time, the holy church, leaving several to lay by the wayside (seriously. watch the history channel). i just don't believe in the stern "wrathful God" or the "hellfire" and "brimstone" ideology.
that said, the way i would recognize such a being would be by the feeling, or as some would say "vibe", i have upon thinking of this entity. some have said that i am not religious because of my "unchristian" beliefs (you have to know i'm from the deep south) but, while it's disturbing to be told you're going to hell, i feel that the Creator i am familiar with is like a "heavenly father"; one who is incredibly indulgent.
there was a time i doubted the existance of any being so impossible to observe, or even detect using tried and true methodology. however, one day during one of those days i was wrestling with discounting something as monumental as a God and feeling silly for considering there is such a thing, i decided i was going to get over it, once and for all. i said a prayer (feeling unbelievably foolish) requesting that if there was a being of the nature i'd pondered over, that this being would give me some sort of sign.
at that moment, i felt like i was complete for the first time in my life. at that moment, no matter what anyone told me to the contrary, i knew that a being beyond our scientific understanding did exist. and i have yet to have any visual concept of what this being may look like.
uh yeah. sorry about the length and the lack of clarity. it's after 4am here.
anyone please let me know if my avatar is offensive.
as far as the thread...
honestly i have never had any sort of vision of God, or whatever you want to call the being that watches over us all. i've never really thought about it. if i try to envision such a being, my mind goes completely blank. i believe that may stem from a deep-seated belief that the being in question is too far beyond comprehension to really see in the sense that mortal beings do see. such a being would most likely be more otherworldly than we could actually fully perceive; something so far removed from our realm of physical laws and, therefore, scientific explanation that to even begin to try to imagine the nature, visual or otherwise, of the Creator would be...well. ridiculous i suppose. uh, no insult intended in any way.
i don't, do not, feel church is required. i don't believe that another mortal being is capable of telling me more about my beliefs than i could discover on my own. i feel the bible, while compelling and inspiring, is a conglomeration of stories (gospels, i suppose) that were hand-picked by the authority of the time, the holy church, leaving several to lay by the wayside (seriously. watch the history channel). i just don't believe in the stern "wrathful God" or the "hellfire" and "brimstone" ideology.
that said, the way i would recognize such a being would be by the feeling, or as some would say "vibe", i have upon thinking of this entity. some have said that i am not religious because of my "unchristian" beliefs (you have to know i'm from the deep south) but, while it's disturbing to be told you're going to hell, i feel that the Creator i am familiar with is like a "heavenly father"; one who is incredibly indulgent.
there was a time i doubted the existance of any being so impossible to observe, or even detect using tried and true methodology. however, one day during one of those days i was wrestling with discounting something as monumental as a God and feeling silly for considering there is such a thing, i decided i was going to get over it, once and for all. i said a prayer (feeling unbelievably foolish) requesting that if there was a being of the nature i'd pondered over, that this being would give me some sort of sign.
at that moment, i felt like i was complete for the first time in my life. at that moment, no matter what anyone told me to the contrary, i knew that a being beyond our scientific understanding did exist. and i have yet to have any visual concept of what this being may look like.
uh yeah. sorry about the length and the lack of clarity. it's after 4am here.
What is this material cause in my case then?
Is the disapproval from some theists a material cause?
if the disapproval is merely a social misapprehension, then maybe (since social misapprehension is more or less the stock and trade of everyone's reversals in life)
So what could I do? Try to earn the approval of everyone who claims to be a theist?
Try to be more strongly situated in your own sense of self so you aren't rolled by the slightest indication of disapproval (since its the nature of social interaction on all scales that it is constantly encountered)
for a starter you are calling it a false idea, so clearly you must have an inkling of something ....