the truth is here!

tablariddim,

I hear you as well. However, the seeming strangeness of the anthropic principle does little to substantiate the idea of souls.

On the other hand, there are several things to consider. For one, our fundamental understanding of reality cannot be considered complete. What we call neutrons and protons, and strong/weak nuclear forces -- are more mathematical models than actual entities. It may turn out in the long run that the entire universe and all its "force fields" derive from a single fundamental entity. This would show that none of the parameters are accidental or fortuitous, but stand in strict consequence of that single entity's properties. What does seem to be fairly certain (and if it were not, it would obviate any scientific endeavor) -- is that the universe is entirely causal, and functions like a big mechanism, with nothing but its own internal energy exchanges driving it.

Secondly, it is popular to assume different physical laws and demonstrate impossibility of life <u>as we know it</u>. However, that does not demonstrate that no life of a different type from ours could emerge! And if they do, I can imagine them wondering in amazement at the particular laws of their universe which enable their existence, but should the laws be slightly altered, would make their existence impossible (and perhaps, ours possible, or some yet another type of life).

Finally, the anthropic principle pretty much says it all. We are here simply because we indeed <u>can</u> be here. For example, forest fires happen precisely because there exists dry organic material in an oxygen-rich environment. Had Earth not contained so much oxygen in its atmosphere, forest fires would become an impossibility. Granted, life (and especially intelligent life) describes a far more complex chain reaction of physical interactions than a flame would. However, if one views life indeed as a very prolonged chemical reaction, then the existence of our particular life in the universe becomes less a matter of wonder and coincidence, but rather a matter of inevitability due to the universe's particular make-up.

In other words, the parameters of the universe only become confoundingly "coincidental" when you take yourself as the point of reference. (I exist, and isn't that just amazing that this world is "tailored" to my existence?) Arguably, such a perspective is a bit distorted. If you rather consider the universe itself as the point of reference, then all miraculous coincidence disappears. (The universe simply is the way it is, and oh by the way, life as we know it just happens to be one of the many processes this particular configuration supports.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Boris,
" We can never finally know. I simply believe that some part of the human self is not subject to the laws of space and time "
Carl Jung

I think I can identify with the above statement, only I would subsitute -human self- with 'every living organism' and I would add 'as we understand them' at the end of it.
Take care!

-A LITTLE CHILLI WORKS WONDERS-
 
Alien-I think a single grey might cause a mixed reaction. I know I would be intensely curious mixed with a lot of caution. Fear is one of the primal instincts that keeps us alive. There would be some people who panicked and ran into their houses, just as I'm sure someone would probably walk right up to it. I'd like to think I'd keep my distance until I could ascertain it's intentions, but I'd probably turn stupid enough to walk right up to it. Whichever, it would be a hell of an experience. The government, I'm sure, would surround everybody with everything, pull up in a big armored car, jump out in environmental suits, blast the thing to pieces with an M60, quarantine the area for three years, then tell everybody it was a crash dummy dropped from a weather balloon. (The bad thing is, some would buy it.)

A mass landing would definitely provoke a "negative reaction". In this situation, I'd be way less likely to walk right up. One alien could be lost. A whole flock of them, however? It took some amount of resources to move all of them. I'd want to know why. That primal instinct, fear, would have me assume that they aren't up to any good. Nobody sends a 40 piece orchestra with a peace envoy. (I know, that's terrestrial thinking, but I don't pretend to know what's going on in their extraterrestrial minds.)
 
Oxygen,
Yes, I can understand that. You brought up something that I feel is important and thats what is in the extraterrestrial mind. A lot of people assume that they would reason as we do ( I hope not LOL)
however their thinking is most likely
very different from our own.To them,
slaughtering a bunch of people just out of curiousity could be quite normal.
If there is any truth to the many abduction stories by credible people
throughout the years we are in trouble
what exactly who knows.
Alien


[This message has been edited by Alien (edited November 13, 1999).]
 
tablariddim,

I do not agree with the "We can never finally know" part. While it is indeed possible that reality contains a hidden aspect (or many of them!) which we have not yet discovered, if that is indeed the case we will discover them all in time.

Let me make an analogy. Suppose you are a stone-age hunter-gatherer who happens to stumble upon a working modern car. Naturally, he/she would not have a slightest clue as to what makes the car do all the things it does. The complexity of the engine, and the science required to understand the engine, are far beyond the repertoire of the poor stumped brute. Will the mystery of the engine's workings, and its complex characteristics and behaviors, engender a guess that the car is in fact alive? I bet it will.

We are faced with a similar situation in case of the human mind. We are like cavemen trying to comprehend the workings of an ultra-complex engine. Naturally, it is a task too daunting to allow quick resolution. Understanding will take a lot of struggle, and a lot of time -- centuries, perhaps. But just as an internal combustion engine is 100% material and has no "soul" to it -- so is the human brain.

Similar analogy works for the biochemical complexity of living cells and the multicellular organisms they compose.

In fact, there is little (if any!) basis for a suspicion that we will <u>never</u> be able to describe the complete structure and behavioral profiles of these complex systems purely in terms of physical interactions between the constituent atoms. Such would be a far simpler description than one involving both matter and something altogether immaterial. The idea of "soul" is an appendage which is completely unnecessary and unwarranted at this stage; and here is one situation where Occam's razor indeed is applicable.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited November 14, 1999).]
 
Tab...
Who's lazy .... me or you .. I expressly typed in sh*t.. that's a wildcard entry for you to fill in as you please!
How on earth you can continue to claim <u>truth</u> is beyond me when your own ramblings question the very core of your claim - "The truth of intangibles is always subjective"
You see, the trouble with truth to some people is that facts don't enter into it or seem to be non-existent in some cases. I feel you fall into the latter category.
I may as well join in and make wild statements - proclaim them as truth - then declare to all their minds are too primative to accept it - wahlah! I now speak an unquestionable and completely unsubstantiated truth with absolutely no fact to back me up! Anyone who dares question or rebute my claim is stupid, lazy, ignorant, mentally inferior etc etc.
You say you served me a up a nice slice of yours, well - if you cook like you think, I'd rather eat out!
Don't bother replying...
 
Dave,
chill out man. If you want to eat me, there are certain vital ingredients you have to use, which you should have used when you first got into this discussion. And they are, a pinch of salt, a dose of irony and a tongue firmly planted in cheek.
By the way you are right,I do cook with flair and imagination. In fact, my ispired cooking and catering style enabled me to retire at 37, so that I could become a full time dreamer. This is the truth and so are my constantly evolving ideas, some of which I shared with you.
Watch out for those Aliens!

-HOUMMOUS CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH GARLIC-
 
Hey Truestory, I'd like a Pepsi to. Think about my needs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(it's just a lighthearted joke, but I would like that Pepsi)

BY THE WAY, QUIT USING MY SCREEN NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


On a serious note, LEAVE DEX ALONE, I'm sick of all this #h#ty (you figure out the word) critism of kids and ther typing skills.


Dude
 
People, poeple, people QUIT CRITISING DEX FOR HIS AGE!!! By doood's estimat I'm 20 - 21 SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT OLD FOLKS.


HA,HA,HA, that's me laughing at you, DUDE
 
Boris,

That analogy of the car implies that the brute would assume that the car was alive, but you forgot that the car would have to have been designed by someone or someones!

You can use all the big words you want, but your arguement is still invalid. Here's why:
I see what you're saying, but we are not here because the mechanisms of the universe just happened to be just right for our existence. The fact is, there are just waaaayyyy too many "coincidences" that are just right for life to exist by mere chance. Look at the arguement that Tablaraddim was making. The way that the individual atoms work and how intricately balanced that they are, and how if just one of those factors was a tiny bit off, it would cease to exist as it was and become something completely different. Look at the tilt of the earth. It is 23 degrees, and even though it wobbles, it's the fact that it never goes past this amount that keeps it from going out of whack and causing havoc with our climate. And it's only because we have a moon that it is this way. It's a very delicate balance.

You say, "sure, but what I was saying was that it may be BECAUSE of these present states of physical reality that we came to exist as we are today. And that if the laws of physics were different, we might exist in a completely different form because those laws were particularly that way." Well, it doesn't really matter because no matter what the laws of reality are, it still requires that all these factors work in harmony. They ain't no way for it to be an accident mane.

You even stated it yourself; maybe it's just part of a mechanism that works from a single existence. Hmmm, sounds like God to me.

------------------
There is no such thing as subjective truth.
 
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