The truth about Atheism?

The beauty

Does not your inability to percieve something render that something moot? Rather, you're trying to argue "since I can't percieve this, it must mean this." You are doing exactly what i said you are doing and you claimed you aren't. You're playing with the definition to justify your nonsense.
<HR>
Bottom line:

Belief rests on the shoulders of faith, and faith is the substance of things not seen, and evidence of things hoped for.

I hope there is a God. I hope that as my Son becomes a man, he is aware that there is a love bigger than mine, because I have and will fail him and his mother in small ways. I hope that he can see the beauty in a Universe created for him to explore and enjoy his entire life, as I have and will continue to do. And in the intangibility of God, he has given me a life of choice, to do as I see fit, to believe or disbelieve. This is God's completely unconditional love, God's complete surrender to my will, not the inverse.

To say God is intangible and unseen is to say the entire Universe is intangible and without beauty.

Whether there is any logic in what I have just stated is irrelevant.
It is as real to me as my own existence. The fact that you do not live in a Universe like mine saddens me. And if you do see the beauty of this world and all that is in it and all that it will hopefully become, then none of God's work has been in vain, and I am grateful that you see it.
 
CA,

That it does not rest upon logical contradiction? What is 'impossible' about the God of the deist?
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That is very vague and imprecise and I can't make your example work.

To claim that something is not impossible one must be able to show that it is indeed possible. Can you show that the Deist god is possible?

Isn't this just a speculation where nothing meaningful can be said about its possibility or impossibility?
 
Fluid,

Belief rests on the shoulders of faith, and faith is the substance of things not seen, and evidence of things hoped for.
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When examined closely and honestly such faith is an emotive way of saying belief without evidence.

To say God is intangible and unseen is to say the entire Universe is intangible and without beauty.
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That is only your imagination at work and that is fine providing you don't expect anyone else to believe that especially if you want claim any type of rational thought.

Whether there is any logic in what I have just stated is irrelevant.
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Perhaps to you but if everyone based their lives on irrational ideas like this then utter chaos would result.

It is as real to me as my own existence.
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But without any factual support how do you distinguish your belief from delusion?

The fact that you do not live in a Universe like mine saddens me.
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It saddens me also that so many people can latch onto false hopes and beliefs in things that they cannot possibly know are true or false, rather than pursue truly worthwhile avenues that lead towards real knowledge and understanding of the universe.

The universe is truly a fabulous place and I want to live forever in the hope of being able explore a lot of it. But there is no need of gods, the universe is more than enough wonder.
 
Re: The beauty

Originally posted by Fluidity
To say God is intangible and unseen is to say the entire Universe is intangible and without beauty.
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Bullpuckie. Only someone entirely too full of himself and wholly ignorant of Sagan or Gould or Wilson or Myer could claim such foolishness.

Go read The Sacred Depths of Nature, and then get back to us.
 
cris

<I>When examined closely and honestly such faith is an emotive way of saying belief without evidence. </I>
<HR>

Well...exactly. Belief requires no evidence. In fact, we use the term all the time in speech when we <b>suspect</b> something is true.

<I>That is only your imagination at work and that is fine providing you don't expect anyone else to believe that especially if you want claim any type of rational thought.</I>
<HR>
I do have an imagination, but that does not preclude rational thought. I hope you have an imagination, and I suspect you do.


<i>Perhaps to you but if everyone based their lives on irrational ideas like this then utter chaos would result.</i>
<HR>
If there isn't any utter chaos now, why do you think it would result? I think your imagination is out of control here. People have had <i>much</i> more radical beliefs than my own.


<i>But without any factual support how do you distinguish your belief from delusion?</i>
<HR>
I choose to believe these things; delusion is not a matter of personal choice.
 
Originally posted by Cris
That is very vague and imprecise and I can't make your example work.
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What is vague and imprecise about the absence of logical contradiction? In fact, it answers your closed box example, since by concealing the contents of the box you conceal the potential for logical contradiction thereby rendering the issue of possibility unanswerable.

BTW: what do you see as the distinction between possibility and probability? How can you assert, on the one hand:
  • "Isn't this just a speculation where nothing meaningful can be said about its possibility or impossibility?"
while asserting a zero probability of God(s) in the other thread?
 
Originally posted by Cris
wes,

Is it? What is your evidence for such a possibility? What does it mean when you state that something is possible?
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I mean, there is no argument that I am aware of the logically precludes the possibility of the existence of god, especially if you redefine god however it suits your fancy. I believe you can logically reach the conclusion that god is extremely unlikely and for that matter it is logical to "believe" god does not exist, but it is not possible to say with absolute certainty that "god(s)" do(es) not exist. Would you agree? I would agree that this is superfluous, in that all knowledge should be thought of as tentative... but still..
 
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Originally posted by Cris
Wes,

More on possibilities.

If I have a box containing 10 coins I know it is possible to divide the coins into two groups of 6 and 4. However, what if I am given a closed box and am not told how many coins are present or if any coins are present. Can I now claim that it is possible to select two groups of 6 and 4?

We don't know if there is a possibility of such a selection or not.

As I said before if we are talking about the unknown then we can make no meaningful statements about what is possible or what is not possible.
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I would agree but stipulate that I think that the default choice is "possible" when contemplating that which one has no knowledge of. Maybe that's naive. I've always thought it good practice. Further, I just give the benefit of the doubt regarding the issue in so much as it is at least "possible". What do you think?
 
CA

<i>Bullpuckie. Only someone entirely too full of himself and wholly ignorant of Sagan or Gould or Wilson or Myer could claim such foolishness.</i>
<HR>
Bullpuckie. Wholly Ignorant. Full of Himself.
Big words for a college boy, and very subjective I might add.

CA, I have the ability to form my own opinions and beliefs. The mere fact that you hold these men so high above yourself would indicate you have a weakness when it comes to thinking autonomously.

If I see the Universe as the work of God, regardless of the lack of scientific evidence to support it, it would be quite contradictory for me to define God as intangible. In other words, the work of God is tangible, which makes God tangible.

To support this, the work of Sagan is tangible. In leaving behind his books, papers, recorded speeches...etc. His mind is tangible to us today. By manifestation, you proved my point. Thank you.
 
Belief rests on the shoulders of faith, and faith is the substance of things not seen, and evidence of things hoped for. I hope there is a God. I hope that as my Son becomes a man, he is aware that there is a love bigger than mine, because I have and will fail him and his mother in small ways.
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So you admit that you are longing for god? And that explanations of universe without your god is not pleasant for you?

I think its a big prob with humans - they thend to bent objectvie reality to be pleasant for them .

To say God is intangible and unseen is to say the entire Universe is intangible and without beauty.
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The thing which always puzzles me is when ppl use terms wich dont have any clear defintions ,which are highly subjective and therefore inapproprate to be used as charactersitics .

What the hell is "beauty" ? " love"? I mean in the sense you use it .

If we define "love" as a group of animal instincts , psychological traits and social conditions aimed to promote the sexual intercourse and/or caring about their offsrpings I think that will do pretty good for describing something that really exist .

Or a "beauty". A charactersitic of how much you like something.

And then we can play from that point . The thing about "beauty" of things around us naturally comes from the point that we are the products of our surroundings . If we didnt like what is around us we wouldnt even evolve as an exisitng species .

But I suppose you didnt mean that? You meant something of unknown supernatural power that flows around as and fills our "souls"? Or even worse -whole universe?



Whether there is any logic in what I have just stated is irrelevant.
It is as real to me as my own existence.
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Well so what the debate is about then? If existence of any logic is irreleveant?



The fact that you do not live in a Universe like mine saddens me.
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Facts speak for the point that we actually live in same universe . Its only you imagining it different from what some other ppl imagine. And theists imagine the world which contradicts the facts we observe , their "theories" are not integral and complete full of self contradictions and obsolete rules.

But aside that ,what theists existence of gods means asnd they religious interpretaions of universe?

That we should go to church every sunday? Not eat pork/meat?

That there is universal "love"? That there is a big bearded man somewhere? That in the afterlife you gonna graze in heavens pastures? Or boil in hells cauldrons?

I mean what you really expect from ppl after believing in your god? You would like to impose a set of rules on REAL life don't you? And if yes then why imaginary phantasies should influence real world? Because someone finds it serves his own good? And if not then does it really matter if someone believes in your god or not ?

I dont understand for which good can limit on stem cell research serve, abortion bans , taboo on post mortem examination , burning of witches and heretics on stake ,holy wars on infidels?

Thats why I think religion is on of the saddest thing - to be a victim of your own fantasies , to neglect knowledge and step into the dark where things around you are mysterious and unknown , to make superstitions the essence of your life ,to trade ability of questioning , research and discovery for one all powerfull and equally useless answer.
 
DarkNut

That there is universal "love"? That there is a big bearded man somewhere? That in the afterlife you gonna graze in heavens pastures? Or boil in hells cauldrons?

I mean what you really expect from ppl after believing in your god? You would like to impose a set of rules on REAL life don't you? And if yes then why imaginary phantasies should influence real world? Because someone finds it serves his own good? And if not then does it really matter if someone believes in your god or not ?
<HR>
This is delusional. Apparently, you don't read much or even leave the house. If you knew me personally, very closely, only then would you know the things I have said here.

What kind of art do you like? This is the kind of beauty I speak of.
A beautiful woman, a beautiful child. A night when aurora borealis is visible from a house boat. Dreaming of circling black holes at 80 percent c. The idea of living forever as a highly sophisticated man-machine. Dreams, ideas, reality, personal fulfillment, challenge...these are beautiful to me.

Have some respect for another intelligent member of the human race, and stop shouting virtual epithets in my direction.

I love life. How I love life is a personal choice. Why do you ask?

You can't comprehend my concept of God. I would never expect you to believe in what you cannot comprehend.
 
Good advice...

I dont understand for which good can limit on stem cell research serve, abortion bans , taboo on post mortem examination , burning of witches and heretics on stake ,holy wars on infidels?
<HR>
You might not notice, but with the invention of modern machinery, science, education, things like that, we God believers have had to come out of the dark and learn how to play with other folks.

Let me also point out that your grandparents-grandparents-grandparents were probably like the people you describe above.

I doubt we'll see this kind of crap in society again.

The reasons I object to stem cell research, not that it will always be frightening to me, has nothing to do with God. It is more to do with the fact that I believe there are dimensions beyond our insight, such as the dimension of time. Our instincts, genetic entropy, physiological progression...all of this is encoded in the human genome now. We are looking at something we do not completely understand. My fear is that a single change to all of us, would result in a race of pug-nosed look alikes that are angry at science and government for allowing genetic alterations before we understood the impact it has on our reproductive capacity.
The idea, is that a change in the genetic structure by intervention could forever lock that strain in an irreversible pattern of identical reproduction. Maybe not the first time, but if we 'perfect' the genome, it becomes unusable. It's that simple.

Abortion is a personal choice that should be left to the individual to decide, and women to debate. Men need to stay out of the matter entirely.

Post mortem examination is a necessity.

The rest of what you suggest is the cause of theism is really quite outside the range of a modern thinker.

Holy wars, hopefully, will soon come to an end. I hope we get to keep the oil refineries on operation.
 
While I have a minute.
Well...exactly. Belief requires no evidence. In fact, we use the term all the time in speech when we suspect something is true.
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So... you originally started this thread to attack atheism because you state that they have no evidence or logical argument. But you just agreed that belief (in a god, or godless universe) requires no evidence. You have just shot down your own chance of 'disproving' atheism.

Thank you for your cooperation.
 
hehe

Just because I acknowledge belief requires no evidence, does not mean I don't see any.

You don't see the evidence I suggest, so it's moot to you.

I can't change that.
 
Hehe.. Persol, You're cracking me up. We're supposed to be all serious and junk.
 
Fluid,

Well...exactly. Belief requires no evidence. In fact, we use the term all the time in speech when we suspect something is true.
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No that is incorrect. It is faith that requires no evidence. Belief is always based on criteria that forms either a rational basis or an irrational basis.

I do have an imagination, but that does not preclude rational thought.
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The issue is when you cannot tell the difference between something imagined and what is real.

If there isn't any utter chaos now, why do you think it would result? I think your imagination is out of control here. People have had much more radical beliefs than my own.
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It is those who apply logic that allows humanity to progress, e.g. science. If everyone became religious and gave up science then society would fall apart very quickly and would revert to the stone age.

I choose to believe these things; delusion is not a matter of personal choice.
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And you choose to believe things based on what criteria? If you do not use an independent source to verify the truth of your beliefs then you have no way to tell whether you are believing something that is true or whether you are being deceived or are truly delusional.
 
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