The Theory of Devolution

And no need to adhere to definitions already accepted and used?
Wow.


If I were to create a mechanical or biological machine and if I would define that machine to be "fit" if it performs well under ordinary and extreme conditions and if the machine would protest my use of the word fitness, I would definitely believe that the machine should be scrapped for having a serious design flaw.

> Again, wouldn't the conclusion be entirely definitional and depend on an unquestionably irrefutable definition of a scientific theory?

Nope.


Unbelievable. Someone, call the repairman.
 
If I were to create a mechanical or biological machine and if I would define that machine to be "fit" if it performs well under ordinary and extreme conditions and if the machine would protest my use of the word fitness, I would definitely believe that the machine should be scrapped for having a serious design flaw.
Simply because you're defining "fit" to suit your own meaning doesn't make it valid.
There is an accepted and generally understood meaning in biology.

Unbelievable. Someone, call the repairman.
I see you missed the point altogether.
 
If I were to create a mechanical or biological machine and if I would define that machine to be "fit" if it performs well under ordinary and extreme conditions and if the machine would protest my use of the word fitness, I would definitely believe that the machine should be scrapped for having a serious design flaw.

Yeah, but biology isn't designed.
 
I'm googling but can't find an animal that has evolved to the point where their brains are no longer required. In some cases the brains have become smaller but total brain loss I cannot find an example of.
Have you considered G.W.Bush?

Eugene, go read some elementary textbooks on evolution then come back and explain to us exactly how badly you have misunderstood the use of the word fitness in a biological context.
 
Eugene,
if - as you contend - life never becomes more robust, which you state categorically in post#14, then are you asserting that life somehow arose with a high degree of complexity and robustness and has been devolving ever since?

In that case you appear to require the intervention of a creator to initiate that complex life. Can you elucidate? Moreover we would expect to see evidence in the fossil record for more advanced forms in the past. The reverse is true.

You are aware, are you not, that you have either misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented the New Scientist article about the myths of evolution. If it was the former - a misinterpretation - I urge you to study it carefully. If it was the latter, expect very little mercy from the attendant audience.
 
Eugene,
if - as you contend - life never becomes more robust, which you state categorically in post#14, then are you asserting that life somehow arose with a high degree of complexity and robustness and has been devolving ever since?


That is correct.

In that case you appear to require the intervention of a creator to initiate that complex life.


I do not make that assumption. In fact, I believe it's wrong to presuppose God as an agent in the creation process. Furthermore, I'm sufficiently satisfied to explain that just as there is a theistic and non-theistic theory of evolution, there is also a theistic and non-theistic version of molecular and quantum creationism.

Can you elucidate?


High ranking cosmologists already teach that a highly ordered physical reality can spontaneously materialize out of nothingness and then become increasingly disordered and decay into inevitable extinction and non-existence. That's the view of all mainstream physicists. You can hear Sir Roger Penrose express that very orthodox belief at exactly 5:00 to 7:05 minutes into a Hard Talk interview with Stephen Sackur at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEIj9zcLzp0.

Moreover we would expect to see evidence in the fossil record for more advanced forms in the past.


I believe that the ancient Earth was full of extraordinarily robust forms of life. Have you ever been bitten by a parakeet? I ask because I think parakeets are surprisingly vicious. I remember being bitten by one when I was a child and it hurt a lot. Now consider the strong, compelling support for the theory that birds are genetically related to the meat-eating dinosaurs (theropods). There are many stunning similarities, including the evidence that at least some theropods had feathers. http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/dinobird/story.htm

Please consider the following outlandish illustration:

Just from watching dinosaur movies, I believe that most reasonable persons would agree that the theropods were far more efficient killing machines than modern-day parakeets. And who would believe that you could take parakeet DNA, manipulate it somehow and create a super species of monster-sized theropods? Actually, I do believe it's possible theoretically but I also believe that the efficiency of modern bird DNA has decreased so greatly that any huge theropod a scientist could create today wouldn't even have the energy to stand up.

This argument is no proof. It is simply what I expect from the postulate that all biological machines are becoming less robust over time. As genetic code in all life forms continues to get corrupted and degrades through copying errors and other mutations, successive generations of machines, in all series, must plod along with increasing inefficiency and sometimes features are entirely lost.

You are aware, are you not, that you have either misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented the New Scientist article about the myths of evolution.


I believe that you missed my point. I was simply expressing the commonsense idea—specious and heretical to Neo-Darwinists—that purported facts and snippets of theories are modular and that I am free to assemble what is reasonable and true and courageously repudiate what is irrational and unprovable.
 
Do Evolutionists Accept the Fundamental Principle of Science?

"The fundamental principle of science, the definition almost, is this: the sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment." — Richard P. Feynman.

Curiously, the only experiments to test the theory of evolution versus the theory of devolution confirm devolution.
 
The theory of devolution agrees with Darwin that there are living things that reproduce with variation but says that all life is becoming less robust over time and is spiraling downward toward extinction and death, not upward to more glorious forms of life.

....what?

Look...evolution is taking on something of a mystique, here. Everyone seems to be coming up with more and more outlandish theories to discuss some perceived result, but without a mechanism.

Obviously, the organisms that have that lost their brain have became less complicated and less fit to survive but have survived nevertheless.

Well, there are examples of simplification. But it's hardly part of a larger process involving all life.
 
What if "more glorious forms of life" happen to be more fragile? With intelligence, we can build things that protect our bodies. The most robust forms of life were also the first forms of life, bacteria and single celled organisms. They will be around long after we are gone.

Anyway, evolution only builds fit bodies. If fitness happens to mean less of a brain or fewer muscles or a lighter skeleton, then that's the way it is.
 
just read anything on evolutionary developmental biology

I happen to have read one book by Sean Carroll

and quite frankly , none of you know what you talk

I'm on my second and have ordered a third

evolutionary developmental biology is to say the least a fascinating read
 
Whoops. Didn't see that.

Eugene and thinking, I'm thinking I do know. Your idea is interesting, and there are examples of it for certain systems under what - I guess - you could argue are extenuating circumstances: cave fish's eyes, the second set of wings in flies, mastodon thighs. But I don't think it's too general. Or are you referring to the depletion of junk DNA? That might be partially true.
 
This argument is no proof. It is simply what I expect from the postulate that all biological machines are becoming less robust over time. As genetic code in all life forms continues to get corrupted and degrades through copying errors and other mutations, successive generations of machines, in all series, must plod along with increasing inefficiency and sometimes features are entirely lost.

I believe that most reasonable persons would agree that the theropods were far more efficient killing machines than modern-day parakeets.

The efficiency of killing is not a trait of a parakeet which is a seed eater. You example is rubbish.

Look at the killer whale which has been around some 5M years. It is an adept hunter in the oceans. It is far better than its ancestors.

The tuna is described as:
The Atlantic bluefin tuna is one of the largest, fastest, and most gorgeously colored of all the world’s fishes. Their torpedo-shaped, streamlined bodies are built for speed and endurance. Their coloring—metallic blue on top and shimmering silver-white on the bottom—helps camouflage them from above and below. And their voracious appetite and varied diet pushes their average size to a whopping 6.5 feet (2 meters) in length and 550 pounds (250 kilograms), although much larger specimens are not uncommon.

this is from http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/fish/bluefin-tuna.html

Your claims of degradation sound like the silly statements I hear from creationists at their lectures. It's a reflection of their Eden good, world bad world view which has no scientific basis.
 
Natural selection might incidentally make life forms more robust, but that isn't always the case. Fitness in evolutionary terms does not mean adapted for a variety of conditions that may occur in the future. That is why many species go extinct.

exactly true

mistakes happens
 
There may be something in Eugene's idea. Certainly his own proposal, arriving on the scene at this late stage is one of the dumbest ideas we have yet seen postulated on sciforums. Are we seeing a devolution of concepts on this very site? He may be evidence of the very thing we decry.
In short, is Eugene Schubert a paradox, or a pair of dicks?
 
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