The Steorn Orbo motor: Proving Overunity

[James R]

It is a simple device they put together. You could measure voltages, currents, around their device to show where they are wrong, but u don't bother.

As far as I am aware, independent scientists were invited at one stage to measure those things. I can't recall whether the invitation was retracted, or whether the machine conveniently wasn't working when they showed up, or whether they made the measurements and found no over-unity effect. Whatever the case, Steorn's claims weren't verified.

Steorn does not claim to know where the energy is
Coming from, just that they cN measure it.

Nobody else seems to be able to measure it. In fact, Steorn doesn't seem to allow anybody else to measure it.

The main problem is in the understanding that the Steorn device is NOT an over unity device when talking about the laws of thermodynamics.

They say it is.

Even Steorn fails to see this point which is half the reason why they can't make a go of it.

Or because it is impossible.

They effectivey go under those laws to generate a need for the laws to be fullfiled. simple as that.... so the device can return "so called free" energy with out contradicting those laws, in fact it is the very laws that create the so called "free energy" which of course it isn't free persee as the energy derived is still part of a closed system.

There's no free energy to be examined here.

 

[Quantum Quack]

There's no free energy to be examined here.

exactly my point but they are mistakenly thinking that they are deriving something over unity when in fact they may be deriving unity but generating pseudo free energy in the process.

a form of vacuum energy that is achieved by going "under unity" using the fixed magnetic fields in a special way to produce it.

 

[James R]

QQ:

Forget all the fancy terminology. The Steorn generator does not put out more energy than goes into it. End of story.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

pedrosura, you continue to be struggling to grasp the notion of 'burden of proof'.

Please don't get emotional.

I'm not. The fact I have little regard for ignorance doesn't make me 'emotional.'

The admiration evaporates when someone makes a Lot of claims And little analysis.

Like Steorn? I asked you to provide the material you found while 'researching' this stuff which convinced you. I asked for material which had been peer reviewed and which had passed. You completely ignored my request. Do you even have any?

It is a simple device they put together. You could measure voltages, currents, around their device to show where they are wrong, but u don't bother.

I don't bother? It's not my job to bother. My job already involves doing work in things like the energy sector thanks. It's Steorn's job to do this, to convince people.

Seeing as the notion of 'burden of proof' is lost on you let's go through it. Do you believe in Santa? The Easter Bunny? Fairies? Morlocks? Pixies? Bigfoot? The Loch Ness Monster? Yetis? I doubt it. Why? Because there's absolutely no evidence for any of them other than people saying "Because I say so". Suppose someone comes up to you and says "Pixies exist!". Is it your job to search the entire planet for those things to prove them wrong or is it their job to provide evidence they are right? It's their job to provide evidence, the burden of proof is on them. It's an incredible claim but one which can be proven easily, just produce a pixie. Steorn are doing the same thing, they are making a fantastic claim and all they have to do to prove it is show a clear example.

You say I haven't bothered to test voltages etc. They aren't letting people. Even if I wrote to them and said I'd like to investigate they wouldn't provide an example for me. People have tried! And even if I got an example and spent weeks testing it all they have to do to weasel out of it is say "Oh you're not using it right". The onus is on them, all they have to do is get a machine they designed and built to work as they intended it. That's much less effort than me trying every possible experiment on it.

Steorn does not claim to know where the energy is
coming from, just that they cN measure it.

They claim they measure it but they can't demonstrate it to any one. This is the point of peer review. Journals are there to provide easy criticial analysis of work by people whose business it is to know a particular area. I am not an electrical engineer but there are plenty of electrical engineering journals. If Steorn have done the carefully recorded experiments why don't they send their work to a journal? I asked you this before but you ignored me. Please answer my questions or it just makes you look deceptive and like you know you've got nothing.

Have u joined their forum, have u asked questions?

Asking them on their forums amounts to just getting sound bites from them. I know they claim to have done this stuff but where is the evidence? I asked you to provide me with the detailed work you claim to have found and which convinced you. You ignored me. Don't you have any? If you can't provide it and Steorn won't (or can't) provide it, which plenty of people have asked them to do, joining their forums is pointless.

This is a simple bit of reasoning you're missing. Forums don't count as proper scientific discourse. Posts aren't reviewed before hand for scientific validity by moderators and certainly not by experts. Anyone can claim anything. What holds weight with the scientific community is meticulously collected data which can be reproduced by an independent group and which clearly supports an hypothesis. Steorn haven't provided that to the scientific community and if they haven't released it as a press release or as a submission to a journal they sure aren't going to just put it on their forum, are they?

It's just better to make theoretical statements without getting ur hands dirty.

Seriously, learn what 'burden of proof' means. Given you have such a poor grasp of it I seriously doubt whether you have any ability to critically analyse the scientific merits of a piece of work.

As predicted, you fail toAnalyze scientifically their claim or device and no I will not do it for you after all what is your education good for if you can not do that much.

My education is currently put to use in the energy, aerospace, computing and financial sectors. I spend 8+ hours a day doing it.

I am not paid, nor am I required, to evaluate every single claim of a scientific nature made by everyone. I dismiss the claims about Bigfoot but that doesn't mean I should be treking through Canada searching for him. I reject the claims that a god or gods exists but the onus isn't on me to prove they don't. The burden of proof always lies with those making the positive claim. If someone says "I claim that...." and you say "I don't believe you" the onus is on them to provide you evidence for their claim. Rejection of a claim is the default position, hence why people reject claims about Bigfoot, yetis, aliens, most (if not all) gods, ghosts, spirits, demons etc. You try to insult my scientific methodology yet you have no understanding of it.

I asked you to provide the scientifically reviewed work which convinced you, you couldn't provide it. I asked you to tell me what your education is, after you insulted people for both having no education and having too much education. You can't take the high moral ground when you are a hypocrite. Can't you answer my questions? Doesn't your position stand up to a little scrutiny? I guess not. Just like Steorns.

 

[Bobbotov]

Having followed the Steorn saga for almost five years since the original Economist ad and the fact that Steorn says it all started almost eight years ago when the alleged discovery was made the dearth of real evidence and lack of any substantive peer review is pointing to the claim being bogus.

They started several different developers clubs in the last five years of which they claim there were hundreds of participants including scientists and engineers as well as enthusiasts. However, in all of that time and with close support from Steorn no one has been able to replicate the effect in any of the iterations that Steorn has proffered. In fact, one of their early supporters, the professional engineer Phil Watson did extensive testing in his own lab of the latest iteration - the solid state Orbo, and he found that it did not produce overunity. Steorn immediately said that he made an error but they have yet to point out what the error was.

Steorn had a hand picked jury of twenty two scientists and engineers from all over the world review their findings over a two and a half year period and finally stated that Steorn had not proven that they had created energy. During that time they never received a working device despite Steorns assertion that the technology was always proven to work and despite this jury repeatedly requesting a working prototype to evaluate. Steorn had said that during the three year period prior to the Economist ad that eight well known universities had reveiwed the technology and found that it did what Steorns says. However, none of these universites has ever come forward and Steorn will not name them.

Steorn have made numerous statements over the years that have been either highly suspect or outright fabrications. The public demonstrations they have held either ended in failure or were inconclusive. They hold no patents specifically on the technology and if in fact the discovery is basically a force of nature it cannot be patented anymore than gravity can be.

There have been numerous claims of perpetual motion, free energy and over unity devices in the last several hundred years. And yet none have ever been forthcoming into the commercial realm to offset the current fossil fuel, nuclear dependency. Many, many people strongly desire for free energy to be a reality which is understandable. It is the ultimate energy solution. As long as people can make money on gullibility and foolish investors they will do so. And they can do so with impunity as such things are hard to prosecute and few investors will want to admit their foolishness publicly. As the world energy crisis becomes even more precarious it should not be a surprise to anyone that more and more of these types of pseduo-science and quackery will surface.

Science is hard work and nature can be very stubborn about revealing her secrets. The one thing that bothers me the most about all of this is not the deception, which is human nature unfortunately, but the rift it is causing between ardent believers in such nonsense and true scientists. Science is dealing in absolutes that can be verified, measured and replicated. It is not in their best interests to squelch true discoveries as that is the basis for genuine fame and fortune. It is the basis for acquiring a place in history in the pantheon of great scientists that have gone before.

There are many conspiracy theories surrounding free energy all of which fail the reality test. If in fact governments had already acquired devices and plans for such energy creation but suppressed them they would not be spending untold billions of taxpayer money on existing energy production and finding alternative sources. They would be using them. The military alone would be the greatest users as unencumbered energy creation would solve many, many of their logistical problems that effect a major portion of their budgets

The other danger is in valuable resources being used for pie-in-the-sky ventures that will never be fruitful and never solve real world problems. If wishful thinking could solve all of our problems this situation would not even exist.

The old adage about things being too good to be true still holds and the necessity of being diligent
in our approaches to solving problems has never been greater.

 

[phil.watson]

Yeah but...

We could spend all day quoting others and still not know what is going on, there really is a great gulf between what we can perceive and know. It is very easy to throw out any new argument, but time and time again we have done this and regretted it. That is not to say that every idea that is presented to us is valid. I truly entered the Orbo world with an open mind, actually that is a lie, I was completely skeptical of it. I am a professional engineer and I was staking a part of my reputation on whatever I found, God knows the easy route was to claim it was a hoax. Unlike many others as a Radar and RF engineer I really know Maxwell's equations, and I am quite comfortable with curls and divs. So it was initially really hard to buy into this Orbo concept.
Lets get a couple of things straight, maybe Steorn are deluded and naive, and maybe their investors should of had more sense, BUT, as far as I could see, and I am independent, hence blowing them out of the water. But I have seen their operation and it is big, they are not a garden shed thing, they have a substantial premises and a large staff, I really don't think they pocketed the investors money.
Unfortunately, best intentions don't cut it, and the original experiment I saw still can't be explained, but just like fusion, great in theory but damn all use if you want to build a practical application. The solid state Orbo is flawed and won't work, Steorn came out with some half hearted reason why my measurements where wrong, yet haven't been able to disprove them. What ever I say about them I don't think they where fraudsters, maybe they just wished a little bit too much...

 

[Bobbotov]

Phil, I think you are very generous in your appraisal but if you look at the litany of things Steorn has done and not done and the things they have averred as being absolute truth when stacked up to reality, it doesn't have the semblance of being a bona fide discovery.

They originally had the permanent magnet Orbo that they failed to demonstrate successfully and to date no one else has either. They binned that despite their constant statements that it was always proven to work. Except of course when it didn't which was in public.

Then they had the E-Orbo and gave a lengthy demonstration at Waterways and invited people to come and see for themselves. However, immediately following that they binned that version also for the new and improved solid state Orbo, which you tested.

Considering that Sean stated that this version was the real deal and much simpler to design and implement than the others and considering your test results it casts a really dark pall over the whole saga from day one. Exactly what do they have that works and works to the extent that they can have made such bombastic claims as to, in their minds at least, upset science? I think science is more annoyed at these types of claims than upset.

When the jury returned their negative report Sean said immediately following that Steorn had found the problem after the jury disbanded. He said after your tests that he knew the problem and would address that. He never did in either case publicly.

If in fact they have discovered some anomaly that is truly amazing then why not go the tried and true peer review process instead of all of the circus shows and over the top marketing hype utterances from Sean?

Regardless of the motivations of Steorn and company and regardless of the size of their operation the fact is they don't have anything to show for it and they have managed to run through almost $15 million dollars. I am sure Sean has benefited personally with a decent salary over the years but without a viable product or concept that can be replicated the whole thing has gone down the drain. And if they don't produce something of substance this year then I cannot see how in the world they can keep the lights on much longer. Getting more investor money at this point could be quite challenging as they have a track record that is less than stellar.