ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Goodenough is an atheist.
the slow death of religion
- Thread starter youngbiologist
- Start date
"Religion is not dying. Marx, Lennin, and Mao said that religion was dead. Now they are dead and their statues are rubble yet religion continues to florish. The uneducated, the poor, the unfortunate people of the world will always flock to religion because it gives their lives meaning"
1) Marx, Lennin and Mao said that religion's death would be in the best interest of society - not that it was already dead.
2) Well said. Religious people are weak-willed and weak-minded and just need a crutch. Perfectly illustrated.
1) Marx, Lennin and Mao said that religion's death would be in the best interest of society - not that it was already dead.
2) Well said. Religious people are weak-willed and weak-minded and just need a crutch. Perfectly illustrated.
sycoindian,
The brain is primarily composed of neurons with other support structures. The neurons connect to other neurons forming complex neural networks. It is believed these networks form what we know as memory, thoughts, emotions, etc.
The theory is that if we can accurately map all the connections in a human brain and then create a device that can duplicate those patterns in an identical functional paradigm then we would have effectively transferred the mind of a human to a non-biological device.
Moore’s law shows that computing power approximately doubles every 18 months. This has held up almost perfectly since 1940, and now seems to be speeding up somewhat.
A human neuron fires at around 200 times a second (200Hz), and there are 100 billion of them in the human brain operating in parallel. A powerful PC at present can operate at 2GHz, or the equivalent of 10 million neurons. That means we would have to link 10,000 PCs together to achieve human brain equivalence. Well we can’t quite do that yet. But in 10 years we should have a computing chip of around 200GHz, and at that point we only have to couple 100 of them together to achieve human brainpower. And that we can easily achieve, i.e. by 2012 we will have computing power to rival the human brain. Recent announcements by IBM show they have a project called Blue Gene that will be a single system with the equivalent power of 1 million PCs. The expected delivery date is around 2005.
Computing power will not be an issue. The biggest issue is the accurate mapping of the brain and the development of the software to duplicate the processing mechanisms used in the brain. Note that we don't have to design how a brain works we just have to reverse engineer existing brains.
Once your mind is uploaded into the receiving device then you have several choices. Have your uploaded brain linked into a virtual reality world with other uploads where you could exist for as long as you wished, or have your new electronic brain placed in an android style shell where you would have the same, or probably better, flexibility of motion and activity as a regular human.
If you have seen ASIMO from Honda then you can see the primitive early prototype shells. It is assumed that the development of such shells will evolve into far more advanced mechanisms indistinguishable from humans. Although limiting oneself to a human like shell need not necessarily be a common trend.
Of course once your mind is digitized then you can make backups, and cloning then becomes a major problem. But it also means you could be transferred across a communications networks to be downloaded into another electronic brain elsewhere. Travel to other planets then becomes a matter of minutes or hours once the initial receiving stations are created.
But space travel in general, assuming you take your physical shell with you, becomes very easy, e.g. no significant gravitational limitations, no oxygen or food or waste requirements. And of course existing on planets with no atmosphere or biological life would not be a problem.
But of course computing technology is unlikely to stand still so there would be opportunities to have your brain upgraded with new processing power and memory. Your intelligence would be forever being increased way beyond anything currently possible with biological techniques.
Does that help?
The assumption is that your intelligence, mind, and emotions are all controlled by your brain.
The brain is primarily composed of neurons with other support structures. The neurons connect to other neurons forming complex neural networks. It is believed these networks form what we know as memory, thoughts, emotions, etc.
The theory is that if we can accurately map all the connections in a human brain and then create a device that can duplicate those patterns in an identical functional paradigm then we would have effectively transferred the mind of a human to a non-biological device.
Moore’s law shows that computing power approximately doubles every 18 months. This has held up almost perfectly since 1940, and now seems to be speeding up somewhat.
A human neuron fires at around 200 times a second (200Hz), and there are 100 billion of them in the human brain operating in parallel. A powerful PC at present can operate at 2GHz, or the equivalent of 10 million neurons. That means we would have to link 10,000 PCs together to achieve human brain equivalence. Well we can’t quite do that yet. But in 10 years we should have a computing chip of around 200GHz, and at that point we only have to couple 100 of them together to achieve human brainpower. And that we can easily achieve, i.e. by 2012 we will have computing power to rival the human brain. Recent announcements by IBM show they have a project called Blue Gene that will be a single system with the equivalent power of 1 million PCs. The expected delivery date is around 2005.
Computing power will not be an issue. The biggest issue is the accurate mapping of the brain and the development of the software to duplicate the processing mechanisms used in the brain. Note that we don't have to design how a brain works we just have to reverse engineer existing brains.
Once your mind is uploaded into the receiving device then you have several choices. Have your uploaded brain linked into a virtual reality world with other uploads where you could exist for as long as you wished, or have your new electronic brain placed in an android style shell where you would have the same, or probably better, flexibility of motion and activity as a regular human.
If you have seen ASIMO from Honda then you can see the primitive early prototype shells. It is assumed that the development of such shells will evolve into far more advanced mechanisms indistinguishable from humans. Although limiting oneself to a human like shell need not necessarily be a common trend.
Of course once your mind is digitized then you can make backups, and cloning then becomes a major problem. But it also means you could be transferred across a communications networks to be downloaded into another electronic brain elsewhere. Travel to other planets then becomes a matter of minutes or hours once the initial receiving stations are created.
But space travel in general, assuming you take your physical shell with you, becomes very easy, e.g. no significant gravitational limitations, no oxygen or food or waste requirements. And of course existing on planets with no atmosphere or biological life would not be a problem.
But of course computing technology is unlikely to stand still so there would be opportunities to have your brain upgraded with new processing power and memory. Your intelligence would be forever being increased way beyond anything currently possible with biological techniques.
Does that help?
Tyler:
It is nice to know that there are strong willed people like yourself who can give their own life meaning. Unfortunatly for our spieces it seems that the weak willed are doing a better job of passing on their genes.
Cris: I'll buy the technology that you described but even after we transfer all of the info in your brain into a computer the conciesness that is you will still reside with the original brain. I don't see how technology can overcome that limitation.
It is nice to know that there are strong willed people like yourself who can give their own life meaning. Unfortunatly for our spieces it seems that the weak willed are doing a better job of passing on their genes.
Cris: I'll buy the technology that you described but even after we transfer all of the info in your brain into a computer the conciesness that is you will still reside with the original brain. I don't see how technology can overcome that limitation.
youngbiologist
Registered Senior Member
the philosophical question
the philosophical question is, if every day we replace neurons in your brain with microchips that work just as well, and this process continues until your whole brain is silicon...are you dead, and if so when did you die? Or did your conscience and memories get properly transfered.
the philosophical question is, if every day we replace neurons in your brain with microchips that work just as well, and this process continues until your whole brain is silicon...are you dead, and if so when did you die? Or did your conscience and memories get properly transfered.
*maybe, or maybe the evidence will become stronger, we really wont know until it happens!
*I would assert that someone who is really trying hard to live as Christ did will live a lifestyle that is better and more moral than any athiest.......also, religion comes up in my convos everyday
*again i disagree, secular and christian lifestyles are different and distinguishable and are getting to be more so everyday, I think that within 20 years our society will have degenerate to the point that it will be very easy to tell who's a christian and who is not.
Cris: I agree with Young. In your initial plan when the new entity gained conciousness it still wouldn't be you.
As to Youngs question I think to determine the answer to his question we will have to do some experiments first. What would happen if two consciences existed at the same time and the non biological conscience took over? I don't think that I will voulenter.
As to Youngs question I think to determine the answer to his question we will have to do some experiments first. What would happen if two consciences existed at the same time and the non biological conscience took over? I don't think that I will voulenter.
youngbiologist
Registered Senior Member
what one has to realize
what one has to realize, is that you are NOT your brain. *YOU* are a conscience, a collection of memories and personality quirks which uses the brain like an operating system. The brain, by doing billions of chemical reactions spontaniously creates your conscience. As long as we're careful, we can slowly replace the basic underlying operating system. But even done carefully, you yourself will slightly change but you will never "feel" like your dead.
what one has to realize, is that you are NOT your brain. *YOU* are a conscience, a collection of memories and personality quirks which uses the brain like an operating system. The brain, by doing billions of chemical reactions spontaniously creates your conscience. As long as we're careful, we can slowly replace the basic underlying operating system. But even done carefully, you yourself will slightly change but you will never "feel" like your dead.
Re: what one has to realize
OS too stored in the hardisk to take over the operation of computer the moment u switch it on. now, as u said, conscience - a collection of memories and personality quirks, too must be stored in the brain. When u r mirroring that too get digitised.
If not, where are they ? stored somewhere in the network? now it is getting more complex.
If conscience is only the process going on in brain, then brain is just a factory. btw, it is also possible to assume that there must be a bigger, (or the biggest) conscience as a result of bigger processes (chemical, nuclear etc..etc). is it?
OS too stored in the hardisk to take over the operation of computer the moment u switch it on. now, as u said, conscience - a collection of memories and personality quirks, too must be stored in the brain. When u r mirroring that too get digitised.
If not, where are they ? stored somewhere in the network? now it is getting more complex.
If conscience is only the process going on in brain, then brain is just a factory. btw, it is also possible to assume that there must be a bigger, (or the biggest) conscience as a result of bigger processes (chemical, nuclear etc..etc). is it?
everneo,
The assumption is that 'you' are the sum of your neural networks. If those patterns are accurately mapped and then provided as data to a computer which can process that data in the same functional manner as a biological brain then 'you' will continue to exist as a purely computer based construct, as opposed to a biological based construct.
Note that we are not trying to transplant organs but information. And in this case the information is an exact mapping of your mind.
The whole point is that the recipient (a computer) will definitely assume the identity of the donor (your biological brain).
Research has begun BTW.
http://www.minduploading.org/
I'm not sure you have fully grasped what I have proposed.
The assumption is that 'you' are the sum of your neural networks. If those patterns are accurately mapped and then provided as data to a computer which can process that data in the same functional manner as a biological brain then 'you' will continue to exist as a purely computer based construct, as opposed to a biological based construct.
Note that we are not trying to transplant organs but information. And in this case the information is an exact mapping of your mind.
The whole point is that the recipient (a computer) will definitely assume the identity of the donor (your biological brain).
Research has begun BTW.
http://www.minduploading.org/
Cris,
i got yr point already. mapping complete neural network, and info. and get them digitised and keep it for / constantly update to get close replica. im interested.
but as i said , just to speculate, what happens when brain trasformation takes place.. might be just another organ transplantation. what is called memory then..
i got yr point already. mapping complete neural network, and info. and get them digitised and keep it for / constantly update to get close replica. im interested.
but as i said , just to speculate, what happens when brain trasformation takes place.. might be just another organ transplantation. what is called memory then..
young,
But the analogy to a computer is not quite correct. It would be more accurate to consider each neuron as an independent microprocessor in its own right and operating independently, and with its own memory. The brain is really a massively parallel processing system with each microprocessor dynamically communicating with thousands of others. Clinical studies have already shown that human memories are not located in one region of the brain but tend to be distributed across many areas of the brain.
But I think you are. What other purpose is there for the brain?
Not a good analogy. Think of the neurons as the hardware. But it is the unique arrangements of connections that could be seen to represent the software that in turn is what represents you.
The brain is primarily electrical with the synapses (connections between neurons) using a chemical (protein) method for signal transfer. It is the active transfer of signals along your unique arrangements of neural connections that creates what you could call consciousness. So if those unique patterns can be accurately mapped into a computer and an equivalent process of signal processing invoked then your consciousness would have been effectively transferred to a non-biological medium.
But the analogy to a computer is not quite correct. It would be more accurate to consider each neuron as an independent microprocessor in its own right and operating independently, and with its own memory. The brain is really a massively parallel processing system with each microprocessor dynamically communicating with thousands of others. Clinical studies have already shown that human memories are not located in one region of the brain but tend to be distributed across many areas of the brain.
Everneo,
Unlike a computer where we can point to some chips and identify them as memory and where we can point at the microprocessor, it would seem the brain is not organized like that. Memories seem to be distributed among the various neural networks and intermixed with other networks that create thoughts and emotions.
Cris:
One thing I don't understand about this plan: Do you think that the biological brain has free will? If so do you think that the computer brain will gain free will when it gains a significant complexity. Or perhaps within the software of the biological the key to free will wil be found?
One thing I don't understand about this plan: Do you think that the biological brain has free will? If so do you think that the computer brain will gain free will when it gains a significant complexity. Or perhaps within the software of the biological the key to free will wil be found?