The sleep of reason, or am I just arrogant?

Bells,

I'm so sorry for what you are going through...it sounds horrible...I'm so sorry. There is no way that those people could possibly know Jesus...no way they are born again. I mean, I know that just because you're born again, you don't turn into some perfect person, and you don't learn everything you need to know overnight, but you do receive knowledge of the nature of Christ, and that is not it...what those people are showing you is definitely not Christ. If they knew Jesus, He would have them so convicted over what they are doing to you that they wouldn't be able to lift their faces off of the floor. The love of Jesus is the opposite of what those people are showing you...He is nothing like that...nothing like them...and would never, ever condone such behaviour...never. I'm so appalled...and it pisses me off so bad. They are misrepresenting the greatest, most beautiful unconditional love. And in doing so, turning people who don't know any better away from their Father...their Saviour. What they are doing to you is worse than any other sin they could possibly commit...worse than murder. For what they do does not attempt to kill the flesh, but to kill the spirit. Maybe someday you can be a witness to them of the true love of God...love that they obviously have never felt, else they could never treat you the way they are treating you. It's important to me that you know that they are wrong...they are so wrong. I know Jesus, and they don't, and they are wrong for doing what they're doing.

Would you consider reading Revelation ch 17-18?

Here is just a bit...17:3-6...

"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit inot a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. she held a golden cup in her hand, filled with the abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead:

MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, and the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished."

If you read further, I wonder if you could tell what Babylon is? It is the Vatican. The Vatican is singled out in this scripture because the antichrist...the man who will be...will rise to power from and over a revived Roman Empire. It sounds to me as if the Vatican will support him, and that he will proceed to use her like the cheap whore that she is, and destroy her. Though for the purposes of our discussion here, it doesn't make sense to point to one particular denomination of organized religion over another, because within any, there are those who are sincere and who are born again and who know and love Jesus, and there are those who do not. Unfortunately, far more of the latter. And in the latter, an evil spirit resides and manipulates and influences. I've heard this spirit called Jezebel before. This is the spirit that operates within organized religion and influences those who do not know Christ, and have insincere intentions, to take His name in vain and witness falsely of Him to others...others like yourself. Jezebel is a mother because it is she who bears the spirit of the antichrist like a woman bears a child.

"And people wonder why I feel repulsed at even the thought of 'believing'..."

Do you see what I'm talking about? I do not wonder why you feel repulsed.


What is a prostitute? Someone who sells a cheap substitute for true love...someone who sells a false love...a love that is a lie.


Firstly, this Jezebel spirit gets its power when organized religion is used as a cheap substitute for the real deal...which is to be truly born again of the Holy Spirit and to have a person relationship with Jesus. That is what I mean by "Go to church? I am the church!" A church and the church are in no way shape or form the same thing. I am the church because my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit...my body...not some building.

Secondly, the love of Christ is not for sale. I don't care how many hail Mary's you say, or how much money you tithe or offer. The truth is that there is nothing that you could ever do or not do that would make Jesus love you any more or any less than He already does right now, and always has and always will...period...and that is more than is humanly possible to comprehend...see...it is truly unconditional and pure. These blasphemers would have you think that you have to eat, breathe, walk, talk, and shit just like they do, or else Jesus won't love you. Trust me please...and listen to me when I tell you that they are liars...and they do not know the love of Christ, and that is why they do not bear witness of it. Jesus loves you just the way you are. He even loves them, though when they doth protest judgement, claiming to have done this and that in His name, He will say to them "I never knew you." Man is not saved by his own works, but by Jesus Christ Himself.

Thirdly, as I said before, they are witnessing falsely of Him and of His love. They are not even the ones offering a cheap substitute...they are offering hate, judgement, and condemnation. It is the antichrist that comes to you after they get done, and offers you the cheap substitute. Jesus is the opposite of what they are showing you. He is love. God is love. Judgement is nothing but the truth shown in love...and there is no condemnation in Christ...none whatsoever...only redemption and restoration.

Please don't believe these lying bastards...they are not His children...they are lost and they do not know their Father. Do you know why? Because they don't want to, that's why. After all, they are too busy judging and threatening and condemning you to have time to seek Him. They don't want to seek Him. They want to take pride in themselves...they want to be holier than thou...they want to by right...they want to be good...they want to pretend. So let them pretend, but please don't believe them...and please do not let them hurt you...do not for one minute give any credence to the vile filth that they are spewing at you.

I'm so sorry. I wish...I wish so much that everyone knew what I know...that everyone could know Him like I do. I wish that I could do something...say something that would allow you to know Him. And I can do one thing...that is pray...which I have come to find is the most powerful thing!!! But I can not make you seek the truth...I can not make you or anyone seek the truth about Him....from Him...seek to know Him. All I can do is tell you in all honesty that I do know Him, and tell you what He is like...and He is love.

Love,

Lori
 
Lori, you appear to have found your truth in your religion and your belief in your God. I have found my truth in life and the realities of what I see before me. Ever since I was a child I questioned everything. I was raised by very Catholic parents. I have other family members who've become born again, converted to Islam, become Buddhist. I, however, never found comfort or saw any truth in any religion, the bible or in the stories of God, Christ, etc. I grew up feeling discomfort in being told that I had to believe in something that I saw no proof of its existence. As I became older, the questions about what I was told was true (ie. God, Jesus, etc) just became more numerous, and I never found any answers. As an early teen I began to rebel. My parents, especially my mother, were horrified at my total lack of belief in a higher being. My discomfort had become absolute scepticism and finally total disbelief. By this time, I'd discovered my answers elsewhere, principally science and life itself. Observing nature answered more of my questions than reading the bible ever did. I am the black sheep of my family. I am the only athiest in my family and it causes them extreme discomfort, because they all believe in some higher being, while I only believe in the world around me. It's hard to explain, but I think you get the gist of where I'm going. Frankly I don't know if there is a higher being and I really don't care if there is or not. I prefer to live my life the best way I can without harm to others, and instead of praying to something that may or may not be there, I rather put my time to better use and actually do something about the problems I am faced with.

My family in general detest the path I have taken and I guess for them they fear that I am different. I adore my family but their belief is not the same as mine. I am no longer invited to many of the family get togethers because the more ardent believers, mostly the born again christians in the lot and a few who've still remained Catholic, think I'm evil and a heathen. I prefer to leave them to their own little delusions and will not deign to waste my time in trying to convince them otherwise. I know who I am and I am happy with who I am. I don't need a bible or a belief in something that may or may not exist to tell me who I should be or whether I am happy or not. It never used to be this way. It's become like this in the last couple of months, and I've noticed their attitude shift occured at the same time as their beliefs and their involvement in their religion increased. I now look at many members of my family and feel dismay at what they have become. Their religion and their belief in God have taken over their whole lives. The a/hole my cousin married no longer allows their children to play as they used to. They now come home and instead of being outside playing like normal children, they are made to sit inside and study the bible after doing their homework. Saturdays and Sundays are spent at Church. Trips in cars are now spent listening to the Bible on CD. I find such zealousness disturbing and frightening. I look at these children and see their identities being eroded. They used to be kids, who laughed, played, were naughty... as in they were normal kids. Now everything they do, they exclaim 'praise the lord' or 'praise be'. They've become like minature Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. It's terrifying to me.
 
The only true religion on this planet, is buddhism. They do not worship a mythical god, but venerate a holy man. That is religion in its purest form.
 
Bells,

It is terrifying...it's absolutely horrible. But I need to tell you that these people are NOT born again. People throw that term around like it's nothing. They use it as a label to indicate a particular dogma that they're following...and blindly following. It's a lie...they are lying. I don't know that they're doing it on purpose, because I don't think they even understand what being born again is...but the only reason they don't, is because they don't care. They just want to be able to use the term for their own selfish and malicious intent. Being born again is a spiritual transformation...an actual spiritual occurance....and these people have not been transformed...not in the slightest bit. Being born again means that you actually meet and get to know Jesus Christ...you hear His voice...feel His presence...and receive His counsel in your life through His Holy Spirit....these people wouldn't know Jesus if He slapped them across the face...which hopefully He will someday. Being born again is to offer up your life to Him...to be a vessel of the Holy Spirit...so that He can live through you....and these people are living life for themselves....there is something coming through them and it is hate, judgement, and condemnation...this is NOT the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of Jezebel. And finally, being born again IS the proof that you would require in order to believe. And I commend you for not giving in to blindly following some dogma or doctrine as the rest of your family obviously is, or allowing yourself to be spoon fed religion without understanding. It doesn't take a genius to see how destructive the results of which are. But I know personally that it takes strength to stand up for what you believe is the right thing to do...and I commend you....and I whole-heartedly agree with you for doing so. God doesn't want for you to believe because it's written, or because other people believe...He doesn't want for you to take anyone else's word for it...not even mine....and not even His. God wants for you to believe only because of your own real life experience...for it's only experience that brings knowledge and understanding of the truth. That is how God operates and will show Himself to you, if you wish to know Him...through your life experience. I would just hope that this horrible experience that you've been forced to deal with because of these blasphemers does not stop you from seeking the truth about God. Don't let them jade you...don't let them hurt you in this way. Keep your heart open. If you don't, and you let what they've done, and how they've treated you harden your heart against God, then you will be allowing them to "win". Don't let them win. Just know that they don't know God, and that what they are telling you and showing you is a lie. But that doesn't mean that He does not exist. Because if you sincerely want to know of Him...know Him...then you will. Seek knowledge of Him only from HIM, and He will give you the proof that you require...you will experience it in your life...and then you will know...Him. Don't let them win.

Love,

Lori
 
Bells: I have found my truth in life and the realities of what I see before me. Ever since I was a child I questioned everything. I was raised by very Catholic parents. I have other family members who've become born again, converted to Islam, become Buddhist. I, however, never found comfort or saw any truth in any religion, the bible or in the stories of God, Christ, etc. I grew up feeling discomfort in being told that I had to believe in something that I saw no proof of its existence. As I became older, the questions about what I was told was true (ie. God, Jesus, etc) just became more numerous, and I never found any answers.
*************
M*W: Bells, I really enjoyed reading your post. You and I have had similar experiences as well as those that are diametrically opposed. My parents called themselves 'Methodists' when the need arose, but they never went to church. Mama tried to get Daddy to go. He went once and said he'd never go back, and he didn't. For some reason talking about religion was not an occurence in my home. Daddy never said it, but I believe now that he was either agnostic or atheistic. Again, nothing was ever discussed. I was raised by my grandparents, and I remember the religious fights they had just short of bloodshed. Granny was a hard-shell Southern Baptist and Grandpa had become -- in name only -- a Jehovah's Witness. I was usually the one caught in the crossfire. For a five-year-old, their religious 'debates' sparked an interest in me, and I always felt like I was somehow 'missing out' on these church quarrels. They left me longing to find out just what the hell their fights were about.
*************
Bells: As an early teen I began to rebel. My parents, especially my mother, were horrified at my total lack of belief in a higher being. My discomfort had become absolute scepticism and finally total disbelief. By this time, I'd discovered my answers elsewhere, principally science and life itself. Observing nature answered more of my questions than reading the bible ever did. I am the black sheep of my family. I am the only athiest in my family and it causes them extreme discomfort, because they all believe in some higher being, while I only believe in the world around me. It's hard to explain, but I think you get the gist of where I'm going.
*************
M*W: And I rebelled, too. Not from religious differences in my home, but against the establishment. After all, I was a product of the 60s. My parents never discussed religion, and there were no bloody debates. If they had religious beliefs, they kept it to themselves. They didn't want to raise me with any religion, because they were apathetic towards it. That made me all the more question and search for my own answers. I got married into semi-devout catholic family. They, too, kept religion to themselves, but my path of least resistance was to become catholic and raise my kids in a religion. I converted and church became the center of my life. It was this event that made my parents (my mother) criticize me for becoming catholic. They didn't rear me with religion, and they were stupified that I'd found 'religion.' They would have much preferred that I not commit to something so foreign to them, but after my religious rebellion cooled down, they never mentioned it again. It was that I had done something so drastically different from anything they knew or understood. They even felt like they had 'lost' me!
*************
Bells: Frankly I don't know if there is a higher being and I really don't care if there is or not. I prefer to live my life the best way I can without harm to others, and instead of praying to something that may or may not be there, I rather put my time to better use and actually do something about the problems I am faced with.
*************
M*W: The more 'into' catholicism I became, the more questions I had. There seemed to be some kind of missing link that catholicism led me to. The priests weren't helpful. They told me that, as a woman and mother, I shouldn't question my religion. That made me all the more curious about the church's lack of perspective. So, I raised my children as good catholics, and they went through the motions set out for them.
*************
Bells: My family in general detest the path I have taken and I guess for them they fear that I am different. I adore my family but their belief is not the same as mine. I am no longer invited to many of the family get togethers because the more ardent believers, mostly the born again christians in the lot and a few who've still remained Catholic, think I'm evil and a heathen. I prefer to leave them to their own little delusions and will not deign to waste my time in trying to convince them otherwise. I know who I am and I am happy with who I am. I don't need a bible or a belief in something that may or may not exist to tell me who I should be or whether I am happy or not. It never used to be this way. It's become like this in the last couple of months, and I've noticed their attitude shift occured at the same time as their beliefs and their involvement in their religion increased. I now look at many members of my family and feel dismay at what they have become. Their religion and their belief in God have taken over their whole lives. The a/hole my cousin married no longer allows their children to play as they used to. They now come home and instead of being outside playing like normal children, they are made to sit inside and study the bible after doing their homework. Saturdays and Sundays are spent at Church. Trips in cars are now spent listening to the Bible on CD. I find such zealousness disturbing and frightening. I look at these children and see their identities being eroded. They used to be kids, who laughed, played, were naughty... as in they were normal kids. Now everything they do, they exclaim 'praise the lord' or 'praise be'. They've become like minature Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. It's terrifying to me.
*************
M*W: That would terrify me, too! It's so easy to get 'caught-up' in the fervor. My ex-husband did that. He changed religions everytime he found a new mistress -- but by damn it, he was always a good catholic! I felt comfort in catholicism. It gave me the 'family' I never had as an only child. But instead of sitting blindly in the pew, I had questions that the church wouldn't answer, and I began to feel that if they were too afraid to answer my questions, I would have to find the answers on my own. Rebellion reared its ugly head again. I read everything I could find on christianity. With everything I read, I would come up with more questions that wouldn't be answered. There was really no time in my life that I could honestly say that I truly believed Jesus had died for me. I refused to accept that guilt. The more I read, the more I became convinced that the whole of christianity is a lie. When I came to this conclusion, I found that others held the same disbelief! There was an adequate amount of literature out there that confirmed what I disbelieved. The theory has been tested, and the literature today abounds in confirmation of this disbelief. The church has lied for nearly 2,000 years, but they've gotten away with it because they also created a lake of fire in hell for those who don't believe (or question their faith). Like your cousin's children, the addiction is etched in their young minds. That's what it is -- an addiction. Just like the drug abusers out there, they live only for their next hit. You can see this addiction, as I'm sure you have, right here on this forum. They are wearing the emperor's new clothes and don't even know it! They think they know the truth, they believe it with all their heart, and they profess it rampantly on this forum. It's really their addiction talking. They don't want to listen to anyone who doesn't believe wht they do. It's as if they are robots programming the same old tapes over and over again in their heads. They believe they are clothed in the glory of salvation, but they just can't see themselves running around naked and exposed. It's not just a matter of giving up one's faith. That would be easy. It's the recovery process one experiences when they've found the truth.
 
Red Devil said:
The only true religion on this planet, is buddhism. They do not worship a mythical god, but venerate a holy man. That is religion in its purest form.
Click to expand...

Says who? If anything, religion in it's purest form involves the supernatural in some way. Buddhism is a philosophy, and although I agree with some of it, there's quite a bit of stuff I think is crap, too.
 
I says. Its MY opinion. They do not worship a god, thats has to be a purer form of religion surely?
 
Red Devil said:
I says. Its MY opinion. They do not worship a god, thats has to be a purer form of religion surely?
Click to expand...

It isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of definition of what 'religion' means.

A 'religion' that does not worship a God or believe in the supernatural is better described as secularism, not a 'pure' form of religion.
 
Red Devil said:
you better tell the millions of buddhists that theirs is not a religion then.
Click to expand...

Some people think Buddhism consists solely of the teachings of Buddha, and is a philosophy rather than a religion. However, I'm pretty sure this isn't how Buddhism is practiced in the East. There are rituals and supernatural elements, spirits, etc--when these things become involved, you can no longer call it a mere philosophy. Buddhism, as popularly practiced, is a religion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top