The sleep of reason, or am I just arrogant?

[stretched]

Yo y`all

I just have to share this gem of a debate from a Baptist debating board. It`s regarding the "Hobbit" that was recently discovered.

Author Topic: Recent Discovery of "Hobbits"

Benfranklin403
posted November 01, 2004 10:58 PM
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Have you heard that a new type of human-like fossil has been discovered on the Island of Flores? Seems to be real but I don't know. There have been hoaxes before such as the Piltdown fellow. I must confess that my beliefs will be shaken somewhat if mankind is not specially created.

*Now for an educated response from Brother Curtis:

Bro. Curtis
posted November 01, 2004 11:39 PM
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Human = Created in God's image. God never created half-humans, nor did he create a being that he hoped someday would become human. He created man, completely, and got it right the first time.

*A heartfelt response from Donna:

donnA
Baptist Board Addict
posted November 02, 2004 09:18 AM
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quote:
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Human = Created in God's image. God never created half-humans, nor did he create a being that he hoped someday would become human. He created man, completely, and got it right the first time.
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Good post Curtis, thats everything we need to know. God.

quote:
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Well, in a practical sense what would you consider the fossils discovered on Flores Island? Be sure to read the news stories before answering. Their brains were about one-third the size of ours, about the size of grapefruits and they apparently used fire and made tools. Were they humans or not? If no, what decides the issue? If yes, what would they need to lose before being non-humans?
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In a praticle sense, go to the bible. What does it say? Do you believe God or not is the only real question here. He says He created us just as we currently are, complete and finished from day 1, no changes over time, He declared us good, meaning we were done, finished, no more work to make us what H wanted us to look like, no more developement needed. People tend toward beleiveing flaw science that doesn't want to understand the evidences they think they have from a biblical world view but from a secular no 'god' world view, and far too often christians fall for these lies of satan that casue them to dobut the truth of God's word.
faith means believeing what you can not see, science says we must see something, and we will decide what it is and what it means. What to know what it means, read the bible.

O.K.

*And an indignant response from Marcia:

Marcia
posted November 02, 2004 02:34 PM
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I read this article and what I'd like to know is how many of the bones were found? Keep in mind that the picture of these creatures was re-created from what was found. They've done this before -- using chimpanzee bones and tried to say it was human from just a few fragments.
There's nothing to indicate that they found a while skeleton, is there?

*THEY must stop doing this science shit!!!

And Gup20`s take on the matter:

Gup20
posted November 03, 2004 02:33 PM
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The Galation and UTEOTW would have you believe that the Bible is a fairy tale. They believe that Genesis is a nice story that didn't literally happen.
This story demonstrates zero evidence that creation didn't happen exactly as the Bible in Genesis literally specifies.

It gets better.
(Read the whole thing here: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/2339.html?)

Am I the only one who gets the feeling that the sleep of reason is making a speedy comeback?

Ahem.

 

[Silas]

Not particularly. All arguments of that nature are based on ignorance, nothing more, nothing less. I personally don't have the detailed knowledge required to state whether the Hobbits were proto-humans or not, but I do know that if I were to undergo the full gamut of palaeantological and geological training, I would be able to look at the bones and make my own decision, based upon evidence and the consensus of the opinions of reasonable people. Since these people are so educated, I assume they know whereof they speak. They can talk about each individual bone and describe where it came from, and show other bones in a similar place.

That Marcia should stop contributing to internet forums and shut off her computer. Then she should cut her electricity from the mains and go back to candlelight and scrubbing her clothes with rocks. Because "this science shit" is what runs the world nowadays, and gives her the affluence and freedom to express herself in this way.

In a praticle sense, go to the bible. What does it say? Do you believe God or not is the only real question here. He says He created us just as we currently are, complete and finished from day 1, no changes over time, He declared us good, meaning we were done, finished, no more work to make us what H wanted us to look like, no more developement needed. People tend toward beleiveing flaw science that doesn't want to understand the evidences they think they have from a biblical world view but from a secular no 'god' world view, and far too often christians fall for these lies of satan that casue them to dobut the truth of God's word.

To which I simply respond, "Well, I've read Genesis, and it doesn't sound like God in person talking to me. Does he normally refer to Himself in the third person like that?

 

[David F.]

Stretched, just ignore Silas. As many semi-educated people do, Silas is just spouting his version of his religion - Evoultion. Never mind that science is every day learning new truths which refute life by random chance, truths which show the absolute necessity of universal design. Silas knows just enough to be dangerous and not enough to know how little he really knows. He puts his faith in science teachers rather than discover for himself what science really shows.

 

[SnakeLord]

Stretched, just ignore Silas. As many semi-educated people do, Silas is just spouting his version of his religion - Evoultion. Never mind that science is every day learning new truths which refute life by random chance, truths which show the absolute necessity of universal design. Silas knows just enough to be dangerous and not enough to know how little he really knows. He puts his faith in science teachers rather than discover for himself what science really shows.

You really are a bitter person. How I pray you will one day let jesus into your heart.

Love your neighbour as yourself.

 

[Silas]

Just. Bizarre. David urges Stretched to ignore me, although Stretched and I are pretty much on the same side. Then SnakeLord suddenly seems to have found Christ!

David, those science teachers I put my faith in: Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould (both, tragically, leaving us far too soon), Martin Gardner (a deist, by the way), Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Richard Dawkins and over and above all, the great Isaac Asimov. All of whom, by the way, reported the history of science in such a way as to lead the reader to draw her own conclusions about results, invariably in the same direction as the scientists who made the discoveries being written about.

ETA: That list is not in any way intended to refute David's correct assertion that I am semi-educated.

 

[§outh§tar]

truths which show the absolute necessity of universal design.

What kind of stupid idiocy is this? Care to qualify?

My apologies, Silas, for being called a "semi-educated" person.

 

[Lori_7]

Wow...Baptists sure are dumb huh? lol I'm being stereotypical, but aren't they the one's that parade around with the "God hates fags" signs too? Yea, you're definitely not being arrogant Stretched. And thanks for the laugh.

Love,

Lori

 

[§outh§tar]

I was once a Baptist and some of my friends are Baptists so don't be dogmatic, especially given some of your statements on this forum..

 

[Q25]

That Marcia should stop contributing to internet forums and shut off her computer. Then she should cut her electricity from the mains and go back to candlelight and scrubbing her clothes with rocks. Because "this science shit" is what runs the world nowadays, and gives her the affluence and freedom to express herself in this way.

you know whats wrong with Baptists?

they didnt hold them under water long enough!

 

[Godless]

they didnt hold them under water long enough!

Hmmm;
I grabed the preachers balls, so he let me go!. (just kiding)

Yup, I was once a babtist, however I don't recall being this idiotic. I was always an outsider, batism was my last denomination, it's ovious why I left religion all together, I was searching for intelegent life, still wondering were it is?..

Thus I was fortunate to find Sci-forumers so inviting, and I find I'm not the only atheist around, that's conforting.

Godless

 

[Lori_7]

I was once a Baptist and some of my friends are Baptists so don't be dogmatic, especially given some of your statements on this forum..

Sorry Southstar...I shouldn't stereotype. I'm being a denominationist huh? And I don't even agree with the whole concept of denominations in the first place. After all, there's only one God, one Bible, one Saviour, and one truth. Everything else is just a distraction from it.

This thread just goes to show you though, how dangerous and destructive it is when people follow dogmas and doctrines blindly...especially Christianity. Because they take His name in vain, they witness falsely, and they miss the entire point. The point being to be born again...to know Him and have a personal relationship with Him through the Holy Spirit. It is the counsel of the Holy Spirit and the relationship that brings knowledge and understanding of Him, not the Bible alone. It says right in the Bible that it is to be interpreted by the author Himself, the Holy Spirit. The Bible is a tool that He uses...it is not Him. They can never know Him from using His tool...they can only know Him from knowing Him.

That is why I was so impressed with you for walking away like you did. For questioning...for not allowing yourself to be spoonfed religion blindly. You did the right thing. It just seems though that you've traded in one dogma for another...one book for another, and I'm being sincere when I say that you will never find what you are looking for in a book or in a doctrine or in an organization...never.

But I certainly do hope that you find what you are looking for and so much more.

Love,

Lori


edit...And what do you mean by "given some of my statements" exactly? I may be interpreted as being delusional, but never dumb...there is a big difference you know. lol. I mean, did you read the conversation these people were having??? For crying out loud...they're moronic. I don't care what denomination they are, they're retarded from their lack of a pursuit of knowledge...blind from sticking their heads in the sand....deaf from holding their hands over their ears...and they may as well be dumb for a lack of anything intelligent to say.

 

[stretched]

Thanks Lori

 

[Bells]

edit...And what do you mean by "given some of my statements" exactly? I may be interpreted as being delusional, but never dumb...there is a big difference you know. lol. I mean, did you read the conversation these people were having??? For crying out loud...they're moronic. I don't care what denomination they are, they're retarded from their lack of a pursuit of knowledge...blind from sticking their heads in the sand....deaf from holding their hands over their ears...and they may as well be dumb for a lack of anything intelligent to say.

Lori, there have been many religious members here who have the same mentality as that of the baptists posted above from another forum. You defended one such member and agreed with his beliefs when he displayed such a line of thought and belief when he too was accused of sticking his head in the sand.

Ignorance is not solely confined to one religion.

The sad part of the whole saga of that baptist conversation posted above is that these people have failed to recognise what could ultimately be one of the greatest discoveries of our time and for man kind in general. To exclaim that it must be false because it's not listed in the Bible is a stance that many Christians take. It's simple, they do not believe in evolution, instead preferring to believe that God created Adam and Eve and the Earth and Universe in six days, resting on the seventh. That another species of human may have existed is irrelevant. That other species did exist in the past are ignored and denounced as hoaxes, regardless of the evidence that shows of their existence. It's simply not in the bible, so it must be untrue. I think this part from Stretched's original post sums up the argument for millions of Christians:

In a praticle sense, go to the bible. What does it say? Do you believe God or not is the only real question here. He says He created us just as we currently are, complete and finished from day 1, no changes over time, He declared us good, meaning we were done, finished, no more work to make us what H wanted us to look like, no more developement needed. People tend toward beleiveing flaw science that doesn't want to understand the evidences they think they have from a biblical world view but from a secular no 'god' world view, and far too often christians fall for these lies of satan that casue them to dobut the truth of God's word.

It's a shame this fellow refuses to look at the evidence that disagrees with the Bible. You're correct Lori, they are ignorant, and so are millions of other people who believe in God to such an extent that they are beyond all reason. They are as ignorant as the parents of sick children who refuse all medical treatment because it is God's will and God will save their child, and when the child ultimately dies or becomes permanently incapacitated, either blame God or exclaim it as God's will, all the while ignoring or rejecting the science that could have saved their child. How anyone can follow one book so blindly, ignoring what is right in front of their very faces is beyond me.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori, there have been many religious members here who have the same mentality as that of the baptists posted above from another forum. You defended one such member and agreed with his beliefs when he displayed such a line of thought and belief when he too was accused of sticking his head in the sand.

I'm assuming that you're speaking about c2o, but other than that, I'm unclear as to what you're referring to. I would never defend anyone displaying a line of thought (or lack there of) such as the one depicted by the conversation above. I defended c2o when he was being extremely hypocritically accused of breaking the forum posting rules...the accusation was absolute garbage. When Medicine Woman responded to me with "He preaches, but I teach", I rolled my eyes back in my head so far I almost fell out of my chair. I disagreed with, and corrected c2o in another thread...the seemingly anti gay one. The thing about c2o is this...I know that he knows Jesus. I can tell by the way he talks about Him...I just know...that he's born again. I recognize it in him because I know Him too, and am born again too. Being born again isn't some metaphorical phrase that is supposed to denote your particular brand of religion...it's an actual experience that happens to you...and it's a profound one...the most profound. So it's pretty easy to recognize it in someone else...to hear them talk about how it is. Everyone is different, and has their own paths in life, but Jesus is the same...the Holy Spirit is the same...so it's recognizable from person to person. C2o also helped me quite a bit. Well, God used him to help me...to communicate with me...through him...his poetry mostly. It's kind of embarrassing but, his words were so relevant to me and what has gone on with me in regards to my miracle, that I actually thought that c2o was my rock star, and that the poetry was from him and in some ways about me. I should have known better...throughout this whole ordeal, God has used art...not just my rock star's art, but other people's art as well, like paintings, books, movies, and music to communicate with me and explain to me what is going on and things I need to understand about what has happened to me. It's been a real trip, but since me and rock star can't communicate, God has provided this art and has presented it to me in such a way that allows me to understand what's going on. It's been really mind-blowing actually. This has been going on for a year now, and you would think that by the time I had gotten around to c2o's poetry, I would have realized the trend regarding the communication...and I did. But man, his word's were sooooooo appropriate and relevant...just right on what my rock star could have said about himself. Anyway, I'm way off topic...sorry.

Ignorance is not solely confined to one religion.

It's not confined to religion at all. It can just be so destructive when someone attributes theirs to Jesus...false witness.

The sad part of the whole saga of that baptist conversation posted above is that these people have failed to recognise what could ultimately be one of the greatest discoveries of our time and for man kind in general. To exclaim that it must be false because it's not listed in the Bible is a stance that many Christians take. It's simple, they do not believe in evolution, instead preferring to believe that God created Adam and Eve and the Earth and Universe in six days, resting on the seventh. That another species of human may have existed is irrelevant. That other species did exist in the past are ignored and denounced as hoaxes, regardless of the evidence that shows of their existence. It's simply not in the bible, so it must be untrue. I think this part from Stretched's original post sums up the argument for millions of Christians:

It's a shame this fellow refuses to look at the evidence that disagrees with the Bible. You're correct Lori, they are ignorant, and so are millions of other people who believe in God to such an extent that they are beyond all reason. They are as ignorant as the parents of sick children who refuse all medical treatment because it is God's will and God will save their child, and when the child ultimately dies or becomes permanently incapacitated, either blame God or exclaim it as God's will, all the while ignoring or rejecting the science that could have saved their child. How anyone can follow one book so blindly, ignoring what is right in front of their very faces is beyond me.

The whole point is that this discovery does not disagree with what it says in the Bible. These people don't understand the Bible because they have no guidance, because they obviously choose not to seek guidance. Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive, and neither are Christianity and science, and I have no idea why people insist upon thinking that they are...it makes no sense. Science is the how...Christianity is the why.

And as I have heard only very little about this recent discovery, from what I've heard I can't understand why it's such a "breakthrough". How is an isolated colony of dwarfs a "breakthrough" or how does that prove anything other than what we already know about recessive genes and inbreeding? Seems pretty simple to me...maybe I'm missing something.

Love ya,

Lori

 

[TheERK]

What kind of stupid idiocy is this? Care to qualify?

The same kind of "stupid idiocy" that you once professed non-stop. What the hell is wrong with you, Southstar? How is it that you fail to see part yourself if these people that you now disagree with?

 

[Bells]

It's not confined to religion at all. It can just be so destructive when someone attributes theirs to Jesus...false witness.

I agree with you, ignorance is not confined to religion. I know many ignorant athiests, just as I know many ignorant religious individuals.

And you're correct, when someone displays such levels of ignorance and attempts to defend that ignorance with religion... well it just gives religion a bad name. Being an agnostic, I have very little pity for people who behave this way.

The whole point is that this discovery does not disagree with what it says in the Bible. These people don't understand the Bible because they have no guidance, because they obviously choose not to seek guidance. Creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive, and neither are Christianity and science, and I have no idea why people insist upon thinking that they are...it makes no sense. Science is the how...Christianity is the why.

I think that would depend of how each individual interprets the Bible. If one were to take the Bible at its word, then this discovery and the theory of evolution and even the big bang would disagree with the Bible's teachings. The Bible teaches us that the world was created in 6 days and that man was created by God. When we look around and see the differences that exist in the human species, one has to wonder if God was on an LSD trip when he created humans. The discovery of the Homo floresiensis would disagree with the Bible as these people existed around 13,000 years ago, approximately 7000 years before the universe and the Earth were supposedly created by God. Christians who believe in the theory of creation would dispute the finding of Homo floresiensis because it doesn't fit in with what they'd been taught in their religious teachings. It fits outside of the square they've drawn for themselves in describing how they came to be.

And as I have heard only very little about this recent discovery, from what I've heard I can't understand why it's such a "breakthrough". How is an isolated colony of dwarfs a "breakthrough" or how does that prove anything other than what we already know about recessive genes and inbreeding? Seems pretty simple to me...maybe I'm missing something.

Ah but it is a huge discovery Lori. These beings weren't just dwarfs, but a completely new species. It is a breakthrough because these beings existed at the same time as modern man existed. Here is a link that gives a brief description of how significant this discovery actually is.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html

 

[Yorda]

The Bible teaches us that the world was created in 6 days and that man was created by God.

"SEVEN" days - That's kind of symbolic. Just as the numbers 3, 4, 40, 12 or 666 for example. God meant that he created the life (or consciousness) in 7 different states: Matter, plants, animals, humans + geniouses + prophets + God-man. Also Adam and Eve could represent the negative and positive force which exists everything in this world.

In Hinduism they talk about 7 energy centers, so called chakras (wheels), and between them flows life. All things have these chakras in them, it's also a physical truth. Pick up an apple; there is a positive and negative pole. Divide it, and what flows between the 2 poles constitutes life, and it can be divided in 7 different states. 'Bodies' have limited life "because" the negative and positive poles are not connected to each other (2 things can't be on the same space and time in the material world) Rather God "breaths" a limited life in bodies. There's also a center, a heart in all things, as in an apple and a human. Man is the only creature able to connect the two poles in himself to each other, he can attain the reststate, the 'all-consciousness' in his consciousness. 'God created man in his own image.' On the 7th "day", he works not, but rests in himself - a divine reststate, no tension, no creation. The "day" seems to indicate light.. consciousness.

When we look around and see the differences that exist in the human species, one has to wonder if God was on an LSD trip when he created humans.

I think he's allowed to created different humans too, just like he created different apes, for example.

The discovery of the Homo floresiensis would disagree with the Bible as these people existed around 13,000 years ago, approximately 7 years before the universe and the Earth were supposedly created by God.

The Bible doesn't mention when the world was created, this man though, which we see today, was "created" around 6666 years ago.

Christians who believe in the theory of creation would dispute the finding of Homo floresiensis because it doesn't fit in with what they'd been taught in their religious teachings.

Most likely, but they've seen so much truth in the Bible so they want to believe in everything, since they believe that it's a divine book, as it says it is.

 

[Lori_7]

Bells,

Thanks for the info. Just a couple of things about the Bible...

Genesis in no way describes an intial creation, but a recreation...it is really very clear about that. Don't understand why people can't see it. For example....It says that the earth was dark and without form and empty, not that it didn't exist at all. And, who was in Nod? Where Cain and Able went to get their wives? I've never heard anyone address that question within organized Christianity. Also, when God said to "go forth and replenish the earth"...replenish means to replace items that have been used, not to initially supply.

Also, as this recreation may have taken six days, it does not give the specific genetic or physical attributes of the species created, other than to say that we were made in God's image. Well, that is kind of relative and allows for much diversity. I doubt that what God was referring to in that scripture was our height, weight, or eye color you know? Also, who knows how long "a day" was at that time when it had just been void of light altogether?

The point is that there are many unanswered questions in Genesis. But it seems that some, instead of seeking answers, in their pride assume that they have to have all of the answers already. It doesn't make sense to me why people are like this. Maybe it's because they don't really know God, and the whole foundation of their so called faith rests on their perceived knowledge of this book instead of their knowledge of Him. It takes humility to want to know Him. It takes a realization that you don't have all of the answers yourself to sincerely seek them from Him.

Love ya,

Lori

 

[Red Devil]

Human = Created in God's image. God never created half-humans, nor did he create a being that he hoped someday would become human. He created man, completely, and got it right the first time.

er, what created everything else then?As humans form a very small portion of life on this "god given" planet of ours.

 

[Bells]

"SEVEN" days - That's kind of symbolic. Just as the numbers 3, 4, 40, 12 or 666 for example. God meant that he created the life (or consciousness) in 7 different states: Matter, plants, animals, humans + geniouses + prophets + God-man. Also Adam and Eve could represent the negative and positive force which exists everything in this world.

Yorda, wasn't it 6 days and rested on the 7th? Hence why I originally said 6. Next time however to clear up any confusion, I'll just say 7.

Genesis in no way describes an intial creation, but a recreation...it is really very clear about that. Don't understand why people can't see it. For example....It says that the earth was dark and without form and empty, not that it didn't exist at all. And, who was in Nod? Where Cain and Able went to get their wives? I've never heard anyone address that question within organized Christianity. Also, when God said to "go forth and replenish the earth"...replenish means to replace items that have been used, not to initially supply.

Lori, never in my lifetime have I ever heard any Christian answer those questions. It's generally avoided. I remember as an early teenager (approx 14) I was dragged to confession by my very religious mother, because she had realised that I was turning away from religion (which I was as there just were no answers to any of the questions I'd pose), and during confession as I was being lectured by this priest, and I stopped his diatribe and asked him to explain to me in detail if God only created Adam and Eve and they had two sons, where did the wives come from. I asked many other questions, such as how does he explain the dinosaurs and the fact that there were other homo species thousands of years before man ever evolved, etc. He never once answered that question or any other, instead instructing me to recite 12 hail mary's to try to save me from Satan that was apparently obviously in my head making me question the "word of God". I got up and walked out and the only time I ever went back was for weddings and funerals. As an adult, I have been known to pick up my mother and take her to church and sometimes sit in there with her for a couple of minutes because that makes her happy. What she doesn't realise is that when I'm sitting there with my head bowed, I'm not praying, I'm usually thinking up my shopping list. But she doesn't need to know that as it would cause her too much pain, as my turning away from religion has caused her all these years. Anywho, I digress...

The point is that there are many unanswered questions in Genesis. But it seems that some, instead of seeking answers, in their pride assume that they have to have all of the answers already. It doesn't make sense to me why people are like this.

I have a cousin who's married to a religious nut. He's recently become an avid born again Christian and spends all his time calling each member of her family to tell all of us how we are going to hell for our evil ways. I often get calls with him ranting and just about screaming down the phone about how I'm going to burn in hell and am a heathen, all because I live with my boyfriend. The fact that he lived with my cousin for 5 years before they got married is now irrelevant. When I said this to him a couple of weeks ago when I was unfortunate enough not to have let the call go through to the answering machine (I now actually screen my calls in case this a/hole rings), his reply was that his living with her was approved by God.. go figure.. he sees himself as the second coming and he sees me as evil because I do not believe. What he fails to realise is that even if I wanted to believe, he'd be a real turn off from doing so. I have other family members who are also religious to the point of being almost fanatical. I now no longer attend family functions as I am sick of my family almost pulling their children away from me in case I taint them with my athiest blood or beliefs.. and I have also been advised not to since I had turned away from God and they think Satan has a hold on me. The fact that they only in recent months have found God to such an extent does not matter. The funny thing is that I am never one to actually bring up any religious discussion with them, they bring it up with me. Anywho this a/hole my cousin married even went so far as to discuss my living arrangements and gave my phone number to all the other religious nuts in his congregation (in the hope of converting me and bringing me into the loving folds of God), and in the last two weeks, we've been receiving calls from dickheads claiming that they can save me from hell and damnation (yes they actually used that word) if I turn to them and let them bring God back into my life. I had one woman scream "devil.. satan" into the phone when I told her to f/off. If this is how they try and bring anyone into the folds of God... well... I'm speechless. We're now looking into changing our phone number and have even gone so far as to contact the police. They are apparently 'looking into it', as they've heard some of the messages left on our answering machine and were not impressed. Thankfully we should be getting a new number this week... one which will not be divulged to anyone on my side apart from my parents, who are disgusted at the events. And people wonder why I feel repulsed at even the thought of 'believing'...

But these people claim to know all of the answers and all of the questions. They can recite any passage from the bible by rote, yet whenever questioned about its meaning or how that passage pertains to how we are who we are today or how we got here, they cannot answer, instead exclaim that are blessed by God and how the questioner is tainted by satan. Lori I am currently sitting and looking at people I love, my very family, being destroyed by their beliefs. It's torn my family apart, a family that had always been close in the past. Each person's God is better and each person's religion is better. Each of them have all the answers and anyone who claims that there are too many unanswered questions are labelled as devils and satan.