The Serpent never Lied, but guess Who did?

*Originally posted by dan1123
In hell, God removes at least some of His sustaining power away from those people, causing pain. *

I take it you agree with the serpent, then?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(Genesis 3:4, KJV).

According to what you're saying sinners in "hell" won't surely die, either; they will simply be lacking some of God's sustaining power, causing pain.

Do you not know...?

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave<07585>, whither thou goest.
(Ecclesiastes 9:10, KJV).

07585 sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}
from 07592; TWOT - 2303c; n f
AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

Eternal life is for believers, dan.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23, KJV).

The sinners will be smoke and ashes...

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 4:3, KJV).

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(Psalms 37:20, KJV).
 
Ok, so I looked up omnicient. It means having total knowlage-knowing everything. So I am confused. If God exists he could be omnicient and still allow free will in humans. Just because He may be omniscient doesn't mean he controls our lives or choices we make. Am I right?
 
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M*W: This is a resurrection from 2001. People were still arguing the same things back then.
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Cupric said:
I will be pulling quotes from the "New" King James Bible, just to make it a bit easier for everyone to understand.

So we're all familiar with the tale of the Garden of Eden, right? God makes man and woman. They are placed in a lovely garden, and they can eat anything they like except the apple tree. A serpent shows up and tricks the woman into sharing an apple with the man, and God's mighty ticked off. He lays some heavy curses on them and kicks them out of the garden.

But wait a second here - let's read the story and actually do a little thinking... (I know this is hard for some of you, but please do try...)

Gen 2:15-17 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Okay, couple things I want to point out: firstly - why did God not want Adam to know of good and evil? Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

Second thing is more important though, let's look at God's exact wording - "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". Let's remember those words.

Flash forward a bit. Adam is lonely, he's named all the animals and God has created Eve for him. (Gen 2:18-25)

Now enter the serpent. He's talking to Eve about that pesky tree... He asks her if God has told her not to eat of any of the trees. Eve says yes, God has said not to eat that special tree in the middle of the garden or she will die.

Gen 3:4-5 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So Eve eats the apple, and shares it with Adam. They become incredible prudes and are shameful about being naked (interesting idea there...but not what we're addressing right now). God shows up and can't find them, so he calls out. Adam answers, God finds out they've eaten the fruit, slays a couple innocent animals to provide them with clothing, curses them pretty heavily and kicks them out of His garden. With me so far?

But wait, God said specifically that Adam & Eve would die the DAY they touched or ate the fruit. "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" So...did Adam die that day?

Gen 5:3-5 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years, and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died."

Seth was born sometime after Cain & Abel were born, which is after they're kicked out of the garden.

So who lied?

Everything the serpent said was 100% accurate. He directly contradicted God and told Eve that no, she would not die the day she ate the fruit, but would instead gain insight into good and evil and be more like her God.

God lied, told Adam & Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit, and when they did eat the fruit he (essentially) had a temper tantrum, cursed his children, and kicked them out of the house.

On a personal note, I find it endlessly amusing that the Serpent is a common symbol of the Goddess. It seems to me another version of this story is one where She peeked in on Yaweh's little experiment and decided to champion the children (for childrent they surely were, regardless of physical age) being kept isolated in their little garden. Reminds me of the Boy in the Bubble. (The bible shows there were other people around at the time, when Cain is finally sent off he settles in with the people of Nod who are apparently NOT descended from Adam & Eve). Of course there will always be those that prefer to live their lives being led blindly from point to point, but some of us like to have our eyes open...
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Just a quick interjection here. Wasn't Lillith the first woman? But she was too willful or something so god scrapped her and made Eve? Don't recall where I heard this from. It's certainly not in the bible... Or is it?

Doh! Ressurection eh? :D

M*W: This is a resurrection from 2001. People were still arguing the same things back then.
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Is it any wonder? People have been arguing this for millenia.
 
Truly, Truly, those of us that have been here for several years have seen this argument several times, Alas more than several if you were in other religious forums as well.

The things that catches my attention, is that god had no power of his "garden". If it did, and it's omnisicient, amnipotent, omnieverything. Then it surely *knew that the serpent would tempt Eve, it surely *knew that Eve would eat the aple from the tree of knowledge, it certainly did *know before hand the outcome of the whole story, and by knowing it. This makes him culpable and a culprit to fool man for oblivion for being qua man. For surely who the hell would want to live as a freaking robot? For this is what it must of been for Adam&Eve to have been ignorant, and completely dependent upon a deity whom they fear.

The serpent did us a favor!!

Godless.
 
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M*W: You know, Godless, as I think about that gods that created us, I begin to understand that those gods didn't like the serpent for some reason. Did they fear it? Was it more powerful than they? Then there was the "jealous" god. I think they were jealous because of the serpent's wisdom. Did the serpent create us and the elohim come down to "abduct" us? The serpent has always been a positive symbol, wise and healing like the cadeuses. The serpent resembles the Goddess archetype. You know, like those clay pottery dolls unearthed in Turkey and parts around there. They were voluptous females with reptile heads.
 
You know, like those clay pottery dolls unearthed in Turkey and parts around there. They were voluptous females with reptile heads.
Click to expand...

Never seen these. Only goddess artifacts I've seen usually have very abstract heads. Is strange that the goddess should have a reptile head. It's her consort (maybe) that is the serpent. Got any links?
 
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