The Serpent never Lied, but guess Who did?

Cupric

What's a wookie?
Registered Senior Member
I will be pulling quotes from the "New" King James Bible, just to make it a bit easier for everyone to understand.

So we're all familiar with the tale of the Garden of Eden, right? God makes man and woman. They are placed in a lovely garden, and they can eat anything they like except the apple tree. A serpent shows up and tricks the woman into sharing an apple with the man, and God's mighty ticked off. He lays some heavy curses on them and kicks them out of the garden.

But wait a second here - let's read the story and actually do a little thinking... (I know this is hard for some of you, but please do try...)

Gen 2:15-17 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Okay, couple things I want to point out: firstly - why did God not want Adam to know of good and evil? Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

Second thing is more important though, let's look at God's exact wording - "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". Let's remember those words.

Flash forward a bit. Adam is lonely, he's named all the animals and God has created Eve for him. (Gen 2:18-25)

Now enter the serpent. He's talking to Eve about that pesky tree... He asks her if God has told her not to eat of any of the trees. Eve says yes, God has said not to eat that special tree in the middle of the garden or she will die.

Gen 3:4-5 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So Eve eats the apple, and shares it with Adam. They become incredible prudes and are shameful about being naked (interesting idea there...but not what we're addressing right now). God shows up and can't find them, so he calls out. Adam answers, God finds out they've eaten the fruit, slays a couple innocent animals to provide them with clothing, curses them pretty heavily and kicks them out of His garden. With me so far?

But wait, God said specifically that Adam & Eve would die the DAY they touched or ate the fruit. "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" So...did Adam die that day?

Gen 5:3-5 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years, and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died."

Seth was born sometime after Cain & Abel were born, which is after they're kicked out of the garden.

So who lied?

Everything the serpent said was 100% accurate. He directly contradicted God and told Eve that no, she would not die the day she ate the fruit, but would instead gain insight into good and evil and be more like her God.

God lied, told Adam & Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit, and when they did eat the fruit he (essentially) had a temper tantrum, cursed his children, and kicked them out of the house.

On a personal note, I find it endlessly amusing that the Serpent is a common symbol of the Goddess. It seems to me another version of this story is one where She peeked in on Yaweh's little experiment and decided to champion the children (for childrent they surely were, regardless of physical age) being kept isolated in their little garden. Reminds me of the Boy in the Bubble. (The bible shows there were other people around at the time, when Cain is finally sent off he settles in with the people of Nod who are apparently NOT descended from Adam & Eve). Of course there will always be those that prefer to live their lives being led blindly from point to point, but some of us like to have our eyes open...
 
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." ...

...You will not surely die.

This is a miserable translation that the Hebrews would have understood entirely differently. The key words are:

"you may freely eat" -- Hebrew: <i>akol tokal</i>

<b>More accurate translation:</B> In feasting you shall feast
<b>meaning:</b> They were free to pursue their desires--where they are given a limitless amount of good choices to fulfill those desires <i>forever</i>.

"you will surely die" -- Hebrew: <i>moth tamuth</i>

<b>More accurate translation:</b> In dying you shall die
<b>meaning:</b> The opposite of the feast would occur, no good choices--a decay, a death that would continue on <i>forever</i>.
This is where the symbolism for hell in the Old Testament comes from.

"You will not surely die" -- Hebrew: <i>lo moth tamuth</i>

<b>More accurate translation:</b> In dying you shall not die
<b>meaning:</b> A contradiction--death continuing forever, but death never happening. As if one says, "In walking through that door you will not walk through it." The statement is meaningless.

Everything the serpent said was 100% accurate.
Are you equal to God now? Can you see into other's hearts and know their intentions? Can you declare a universe into existence?

Satan promised Eve that she would be like God. We are not like God. We are frail, mortal people whose bodies age, die, and decay. We are susceptible to disease that affects every part of our bodies--even our brains. We are imperfect and fragile in every way--fighting off decay and death most of our lives. The serpent promised that we would be like God--where is the fulfillment of this promise?
 
The serpent said Eve would be "like God, knowing good and evil. The serpent didn't say she would be like God, able to create the universe, nor did it say Eve would BE God.

"like" in this context means similar to, or sharing some of the same features with. God himself says man and woman were created in their image, so that can't be very hard to accept that this knowledge made them just that much more alike.

I'm unclear on what the point is with the Hebrew translation... Are you saying that God told A & E that if they ate from the tree they would have no choices, but if they didn't eat from the tree they would have all sorts of choices? And then the serpent came along spouting nonsense which nevertheless convinced Eve? That doesn't make sense to me, perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
 
No matter how mighty the God seems to be, he can't change the history. Everything plays out the way it is. It's not God's fault. It's not Satan's fault. It's not Adam & Eve's fault. They all got no choice. It doesn't matter how many possibilities or seemed choices along the way, there is only one end result, and it's written in history.
 
like God, knowing good and evil
Yet another poor translation. This time of a Hebrew idiom.

"Knowing" meant able to define. A creating power.

"Good and Evil" is symbolism meaning <i>everything</i>--because everything lies between the bounds of good and evil. We were supposed to have a creating power over <i>everything</i>. Did that come to pass? As I asked before, "Can you declare a universe into existence?"
 
Originally posted by dan1123


This is a miserable translation that the Hebrews would have understood entirely differently. The key words are:

"you will surely die" -- Hebrew: <i>moth tamuth</i>

<b>More accurate translation:</b> In dying you shall die
<b>meaning:</b> The opposite of the feast would occur, no good choices--a decay, a death that would continue on <i>forever</i>.
To me it looks like your really reaching to come up with that meaning for those words. Is there some reason to interpret "in dying you shall die" that way, or is it just a way to make it look like god didn't lie?
 
Did that come to pass?

God thought so..

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil."...

Then he gives Adam & Eve the ol' boot before they can eat from the tree of life too.

Or was God wrong?
 
To me it looks like your really reaching to come up with that meaning for those words. Is there some reason to interpret "in dying you shall die" that way, or is it just a way to make it look like god didn't lie?
If you want to, you can look it up yourself, but I got the terminology from an expert in ancient Hebrew.
 
God thought so..

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil."...

Then he gives Adam & Eve the ol' boot before they can eat from the tree of life too.

Or was God wrong?
Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you misunderstand the lie:

So now Adam and Eve have the ability to define everything for themselves. What does it do to fragile humanity? It destroys us--dooms us to a never-ending death. The serpent made Eve believe that she <i>did</i> have the power to take this authority without it hurting her (through his contradiction). The serpent made her believe that she already had the power to back up any definition they had authority over after they ate the fruit.

My point is, you have <i>no power</i> over things of this world. You can pretend and define things in your own mind all you wish, but this does not make them exist in reality. We have the ability to fool ourselves, and puff ourselves up as gods standing on our own made-up universes. Big deal.

The real tragedy here is the broken relationship between us and the true God of the universe. He gives us the gift of life and we shove it in His face saying we don't need Him--we can be our own gods. Heck, we can make up gods that are more palatable to us and define worshipping them as "good" or "right". We can do whatever we please--because we ate the fruit. But all of this is empty authority without power.

That's why I ask: Can you declare a universe into existence?
 
Originally posted by dan1123

If you want to, you can look it up yourself, but I got the terminology from an expert in ancient Hebrew.

I can accept the "more accurate translation". But in this day and age an "expert" in ancient hebrew is just someone who can read the words. I have trouble believing that anyone from this time can really understand all the little nuances of a language used by people thousands of years ago. There must be countless possibilities for misreading cultural and social inuendos and no way to really verify such a wild interpretation.

Then again, I AM a cynic.
 
Originally posted by dan1123

"You will not surely die" -- Hebrew: <i>lo moth tamuth</i>

<b>More accurate translation:</b> In dying you shall not die
<b>meaning:</b> A contradiction--death continuing forever, but death never happening. As if one says, "In walking through that door you will not walk through it." The statement is meaningless.
Again, I don't see how you can be sure of the meaning. Sure the more accurate translation is a contradiction, but it could just as easily mean that the serpent knew they wouldn't really die.
 
Again, I don't see how you can be sure of the meaning. Sure the more accurate translation is a contradiction, but it could just as easily mean that the serpent knew they wouldn't really die.
Since the imagery of <i>moth tamuth</i> is used throughout the Bible to describe hell, the least you can get out of it is that they were destined for hell once they ate of the fruit. And the serpent, whether contradicting himself or not, convinced Eve that she would somehow escape hell's torments.
 
Originally posted by dan1123

My point is, you have <i>no power</i> over things of this world. You can pretend and define things in your own mind all you wish, but this does not make them exist in reality. We have the ability to fool ourselves, and puff ourselves up as gods standing on our own made-up universes. Big deal.

The real tragedy here is the broken relationship between us and the true God of the universe. He gives us the gift of life and we shove it in His face saying we don't need Him--we can be our own gods. Heck, we can make up gods that are more palatable to us and define worshipping them as "good" or "right". We can do whatever we please--because we ate the fruit. But all of this is empty authority without power.

That's why I ask: Can you declare a universe into existence?
There's some really good logic here. What I don't get, is how christianity is somehow exempt from it. The same logic can be applied this "broken relationship between us and the true God of the universe".
 
Okay, if I assume your translations are correct then this means to me that God never intended for us to have free will. Or at least not TRUE free will.

The kind of free will God intended (following these assumptions still) is the kind of free will my non-player characters have in a computer game. They are there for filler, important to the story, and have a limited range of reactions they can muster. LIMITED, like God seems to have wanted to limit us. But we escaped his game, found a loophole in the rules (a glaring one, a tree planted literally in the middle of our known universe at the time), and gained more control over our own thoughts than he wanted.

Ooops!

And, as a sideline - where did the people of Nod come from? They're not descended from Adam & Eve, who were apparently Yaweh's own little experiment. Did they lack knowledge of good and evil? Who created them?
 
Originally posted by dan1123

Since the imagery of <i>moth tamuth</i> is used throughout the Bible to describe hell, the least you can get out of it is that they were destined for hell once they ate of the fruit. And the serpent, whether contradicting himself or not, convinced Eve that she would somehow escape hell's torments.

And what is hell? Separation from god? or is it the grave, like tony1 says? Or is it the firey place where souls go to burn in agony for eternity?
 
And what is hell? Separation from god? or is it the grave, like tony1 says? Or is it the firey place where souls go to burn in agony for eternity?
If God sustains us, separation from God is a painful agonizing predicament. Imagery to describe hell cannot ever fully describe what hell is because we don't know to what level that God sustains us, and don't know how much will be removed in hell. You could say in today's terms that it is like being in deep space. The atmosphere, temperature, food, and water present on Earth all help to sustain us in this life, but space has no air, no water, no food, no heat. We would be in agonizing pain until we died (probably quickly). So the idea of hell is like that, only much worse, for eternity. In separation from something that sustains us to such a great level, removal from that source would be painful.
 
I was going to post a long bible-study reply on the nature of hell, but decided against it, as I'm already busy with reading three web-pages and several books. But some verses to consider:

Luke 16:19ff
Mark 9:43ff

~Caleb
 
Originally posted by dan1123

If God sustains us, separation from God is a painful agonizing predicament. Imagery to describe hell cannot ever fully describe what hell is because we don't know to what level that God sustains us, and don't know how much will be removed in hell. You could say in today's terms that it is like being in deep space. The atmosphere, temperature, food, and water present on Earth all help to sustain us in this life, but space has no air, no water, no food, no heat. We would be in agonizing pain until we died (probably quickly). So the idea of hell is like that, only much worse, for eternity. In separation from something that sustains us to such a great level, removal from that source would be painful.

I'm really confused now. Are we separate from god right now? Just partially separate? Is separate from god the same as being in hell?

If we're already separate from that source, then we'd already be in pain. Do I just not realize it when I'm happy that I'm actually still in pain, because what I see as happy is really just a lesser degree of pain?
 
The Serpent always Lies, but guess Who doesn't?

Originally posted by Cupric
do a little thinking... (I know this is hard for some of you, but please do try...)
*chuckle*

"in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". Let's remember those words.
...
But wait, God said specifically that Adam & Eve would die the DAY they touched or ate the fruit. "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" So...did Adam die that day?

Gen 5:3-5 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years, and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died."

Seth was born sometime after Cain & Abel were born, which is after they're kicked out of the garden.

So who lied?
The serpent.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one DAY is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:8, KJV).

Isn't 930 years less than one thousand years?

I find it endlessly amusing that the Serpent is a common symbol of the Goddess.
For some real yuks, just look around a bit and see how many religions and cultures, past and present, deify that serpent.

Originally posted by felix
And what is hell? Separation from god? or is it the grave, like tony1 says? Or is it the firey place where souls go to burn in agony for eternity?
Catholic definition, which is "separation from God" and "agony for eternity"...

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
CCC, para.1035

Dictionary definition, which is "grave" ...
07585 sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}

from 07592; TWOT - 2303c; n f
AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

This is apropos to the thread topic since the serpent said one would not surely die.
Coincidentally, the Catholic teaching is also that one will not die, just live forever, toasting and roasting.
 
If we're already separate from that source, then we'd already be in pain. Do I just not realize it when I'm happy that I'm actually still in pain, because what I see as happy is really just a lesser degree of pain?
What my argument was based on is the Biblical argument that we are all sustained by God right now to a greater extent that anything we see. In hell, God removes at least some of His sustaining power away from those people, causing pain.
 
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