The second commandment & the Pope.

R

razz

Registered Senior Member
The ten commandments seem pretty straight forward, no need to think outside the square ... its a list of literal statements/ directives from God him/herself.
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2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them, for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep My Commandments.
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Ermmmm...just wondering where this particular commandment leaves the church and christians as a whole when it comes to their worship of the Pope... How many ways is this commandment broken with the existance of this religious icon........ btw: lets not forget the alters and statues of The Virgin Mary, Jesus, the cross, etc that are prayed to on a daily basis.

Feel free to enlighten my ignorant soul.
 
I totally agree that the commandment is being broken, ESPECIALLY by the Catholic Church.

It and we are sinning and it needs to be stopped, but i'm not sure how you're gonna get the pope to do that!

(btw, that commandment in plain terms basically becomes: do not worship idols, for those of you for whom the bible sounds like greek)
 
If the catholics were a football team they would be in last place if the commandments were the rules.
 
the pope.

catholic priests rape little boys. and im not being ignorant, i am stating the truth, they do. so how great is religion? oh wait..its not.
 
The Bible was written by men and is not proof that God, or any other deity, exists. It’s all a big fairy tale and riddled with contradictions. If Catholics chose to interpret it differently than Protestants then so what.
 
thats right the bible dosn't prove the existance of god. however simple argument does. there is no boggie monster and no one argues about it, it is an excepted fact. people argue about ufos and there are strang events that have been documented even if they are just top secret planes or hoxes. but there are still unidentified flying objects. so simply because of the argumnet of the existance of god it is proven that he exists.
 
so simply because of the argumnet of the existance of god it is proven that he exists.

Huh?
All this proves is that the concept God exists.

I mean... If we argue over a statement that I make that "I am able to become invisible", it doesn't mean that I can in fact disappear from view at will, does it?
 
Contradictions, I pray thee point this out to an ignorant mind. The truth that I have found is that men are not supposed to be worshippng the Pope above God but the Pope is used as a means for the people to find God. He is not the man we are looking for but the guide, and if you mean make a statue of Jesus well I must say that you are not familiar with the most holy trinity to which Jesus is apart of.
Other statues of Saints and the Holy Virgin are not meant to be worshiped directly yet act as reminders of the virtuous whom have gone before. The Catholic church has hired had some detrimental men working as things happen to it over the past years yet this is an indication that the church is run by man and not by God. Indeed God favors his church however when run by men mistakes are bound to happen. This has nothing to do with any flaw in the religion but the inherent flaws in men, the human condition.
The Catholic Church was created in the hopes of turning those whom seek salvation towards path of light. What you are saying is that the Pope, a man whom has devoted himself to serving God and aiding in bringing many souls to salvation should be what? Smote for his sin of acting as God? That point has no sense nor basis sir, this man acts a guide and not as a God. When people bow to the statues of Jesus, the Saints, or the Holy Mother they do not bow to stone alone. Nay, they are bowing to the eternal creator of such things. On the other hand when others bow themselves to money, or pride, or false idols they are not recognizing the One true God but only creations of the earth which shall, eventually, fall into disarray and disrepair. So in the end, the Pope is only a guide, a messenger and seeking of souls to bring to the light and not the light itself...
 
sheesh.....

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AvatarOfWoe thats right the bible dosn't prove the existance of god. however simple argument does. there is no boggie monster and no one argues about it, it is an excepted fact. people argue about ufos and there are strang events that have been documented even if they are just top secret planes or hoxes. but there are still unidentified flying objects. so simply because of the argumnet of the existance of god it is proven that he exists.
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AvatarOfWoe...I have issue with this quote.

It's flawed.....

If I argued with you over fairies, and you swore they were real and I said they were a crock of crap... does this make them real just because we have argued over the topic? .... HELL NO!

If only life were that simple.

If... a person has a belief in something that cannot be proven either way .... this belief becomes possible....... but not necessarily probable nor proven!
Please don't confuse proof with possibility.
Yes ..I agree it is possible God does exist... it is possible the bible is genuine, but at no point thus far in our reality has God or the Bibles word of apparent truth, been shown to be anything more than a POSSIBILITY that some people choose to put faith in while other choose to ignore to various degrees.
 
Weird things ab Catholics... what news! The popes also liked politics for a very long period of time. The interesting part came after the Protestant Reformation, when Catholic Church began to initiate random people into sainthood; my favorite is the statue of "The Ecstasy O St. Theresa" and the story that goes along with it.
 
Originally posted by razz
Ermmmm...just wondering where this particular commandment leaves the church and christians as a whole when it comes to their worship of the Pope... How many ways is this commandment broken with the existance of this religious icon
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Catholics do not worship the pope. If you asked a catholic if they worship the pope, they would tell you no. Catholics to not pray to the pope or believe that the pope is some sort of god or angel - or, at lest if they do then they are being very bad Catholics and not obeying the doctrines of the catholic church. He's just the head human in the catholic church.
 
Abdiel......

You stated yourself people are not supposed to worship the pope nor statues, but guess what ........ they do.:bugeye:

The pope is worshipped ...the masses do bow down to him, he is seen as a god to many, they kiss the ground he walks upon...hear his words as pure truth, they would even commit murder in his name should he ask it... if this is not godlike worship, if he has not and is not acting like an icon... then i'll eat my hat.

..... :D
 
For all of thise that are saying that they don't worship the statues, or they don't worship the crucifix.
Or even worse, they don;t worship them ABOVE GOD, please read the 2nd commandment again, paying special attention to the bolded part.


2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them, for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep My Commandments.
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Don't make them AND don't bow down to them.
Say it with me...
Thou shalt not make ANY graven image.

Hmmm.
Seems pretty clear to me.

This has always been a pet peeve of mine.
Even way back when I was a Catholic.
 
Originally posted by AvatarOfWoe
simply because of the argumnet of the existance of god it is proven that he exists.
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I would like to join the concensus.

That is just plain absurd.
 
Re: Abdiel......

Originally posted by razz
The pope is worshipped ...the masses do bow down to him, he is seen as a god to many, they kiss the ground he walks upon...hear his words as pure truth, they would even commit murder in his name should he ask it...
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You mistake great respect and reverence for idolatry. Simply bowing to someone and doing what they tell you does not necessarily mean that you believe them to be a supernatural deity.

If someone is actually worshiping the pope as a deity then they are not obeying the teachings of the catholic church.
 
Although I am a lapsed Catholic and technically an Atheist, I still feel obliged to set some misconceptions about Catholicism straight. Catholics DO NOT worship the Pope. The Pope is the head of the Church and an interpreter of scripture. Catholics pray to God and Jesus. Catholics also DO NOT worship Mary and the various saints but rather pray to them for intercession with God.

I am not going to waste time debating those who say that Jesus is the only route to salvation and that Mary and the saints cannot intercede on one’s behalf because, as I’ve already stated, I’m an Atheist and don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus or that Mary gave birth to God in human form.

As to the contradictions in the Bible, there are so many it’s amazing that anyone takes the book seriously. If the Bible is truly the word of God, then God is either insane, utterly incompetent or just has a very sick sense of humor.

This link has just some of the many contradictions:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
 
Thankyou Nasor.. just what i wanted you to say......

although it seems One_Raven stole my arguement .... lol Good work.. lol ..
Nasor please read One_Ravens post with the highlighted commandment.

Cheers
RazZ
 
Let me address this (again with my ex-Catholic hat on).


Originally posted by LucidDreamer
Catholics pray to God and Jesus.
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Which is a blatant sin in itself since the Catholic religion is NOT trinitarian in it's belief, so Jesus is NOT God, he is the offspring of the Catholic God, therefore the Catholics, when praying to Jesus, are worshipping some one/thing OTHER than God.


Originally posted by LucidDreamer
Catholics also DO NOT worship Mary and the various saints but rather pray to them for intercession with God.
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I beg to differ.
Praying to some one/thing is against the 2nd commandment whether or not you decide to use the word worship.

I think that:
thou shalt not bow down thyself to them
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pretty much covers that.

The Catholic practice of praying to the saints is just shy of Santaria.
Whether or not they "worship" them, is simply a matter of semantics.
 
The Catholic faith IS Trinitarian. God is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, or so both Catholics and Protestants believe. I don’t know why I’m even arguing this point since both Catholics and Protestants base their beliefs on a ridiculously flawed book (see my above post with the link to Biblical contradictions).

The so-called worship that Catholics give to the Pope is no different than Protestants prostrating themselves before some TV faith healer or waving their hands in the air while some fat gasbag in a $2000 suit pounds the Bible.
 
Originally posted by LucidDreamer
The Catholic faith IS Trinitarian.
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OK, I will give you that.
I have always been unclear as to the Catholic Church's position on and explanation of the Trinity.

The Holy Trinity was not even a concept apparently until the 2nd century, and has been a topic of controversy from the beginning within the church.

Some History

I am still not really clear on it.

It seems like the church basically says...
"It seems like it is. We don't know how or why, and we can't justify the belief, but we do believe in the Holy Trinity."
Apparently they refer to it as a "mystery".
a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness"
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:rolleyes:
 
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