The role of the USA as world guardian angel...

H

Hesomagari

Registered Senior Member
Someone here put up this in another thread:

3,400,000 massacred civilains in Vietnam by our B-52's.*
750,000 massacred civilains in the US' "illegal" bombing of Laos and Cambodia.
6,000 massacred civilians in the kidnapping of Manuel Noriega.
110,000 massacred civilians in Reagans black war against the people of Central America.

Believe that!

*(I'll skip the 19 million gallons of toxins (Agent Orange) poured on the Vietnamese survivors).

Somehow, people seem to think that we're some sort of "angel's."
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So how about lets look at a few other things as well....

Grenada?

Post-Reagan drug "wars" in So. America? (Columbia, etc.)

The overthrow of Allende (1973? ) led to the killing time in Chile....can we count those civilian deaths?

Somalia?

How far back has the USA taken this assumption of the mantle of guardianship?

1801 (I think) USA invaded Tripoli....From the Halls of Montezeuma, to the shores of Tripoli..... :drum

There was something involving Sumatra ? some other island in Indonesia? before the American Civil War...not sure of the date. I think it was because of some pirates who seized a ship. I think USA sent troops and killed a village and then left.

The Mexican War? But that was of conquest. USA got Texas. And California. Great. Boy, I guess we're really happy about that now.

I think USA went to war with Korea once in the late 1800's, too. Again about shipping. 1878? 1880?

Then there was the Spanish-American war. They got the Phillipines out of that. And Puerto Rico. And Guam. And Cuba became "independent".

And Nicaraguan elections in 1912.

And Tampico.

And USA invaded Mexico again against Pancho Villa in 1916. Didn't get him. THAT was really successful. Remind you of anything?

And USA sent troops to Siberia during the Russian Revolution to aid the Whites.

In 1927, USA sent Marines to Shanghai. Not sure if they killed anyone.

And before USA bombed Laos during the Vietnam War, they supported their right-wing gov't in 1962 with troops.

USA invaded the Dominican Republic in 1965 (?1966, not sure).

There's lots others. Don't know where to find the body counts.


Then, we could also include Manifest Destiny and all the Indian "Wars"?

Not quite sure just what USA thinks its place in the world is, and further, I don't understand why USA doesn't understand why so much of the world is totally pissed off with them.
 
From the list, USA does not look like an angel but instead, a devil. However, are these "all" that USA has ever done? Why did you or anyone ever call USA an angel in the first place? Maybe there are other good things that they have done as well to deserve the "angel" label but you just ignore them.

Take your life for example. If you can only list all the bad things that you have ever done, I an sure you will not look so good but if the your good things are also listed, then I think you will be OK.

You should not judge by showing only the negatives or only the positives but by showing everything.

I think the reason that so much of the world, including those countries whose butts have been saved more than once from being terminated, is USA is the richest and strongest. So whenever USA slap the head or kick the butt of another country and say stop being bad, almost the whole world react by saying that USA is bad for beating the weaker.
 
I used the term because the original poster used it in the quote placed above my comments.

No, those are not all that USA has ever done. I suspect the list is longer than that, as I can already add another four to it...

My comments were solely in reference to the original poster, and I don't intend to expand the discussion to what you think are all the good things USA has done.

Start another thread if you want to brag.

The point of the discussion was to try and work out just what the USA thinks is right about invading other countries FOR NO LEGITIMATE REASON and making their lives miserable.

Not about helping you to feel good about living there, if you do.
 
USA is bad and they say to bad countries to stop being bad... huuuumm... what's the name of this? Oh yeah! It's called h-y-p-o-c-r-a-s-y... :rolleyes:
 
Hesomagari,
Was I really bragging? Did I even list one good thing that the USA has done? Believe it or not, I have been feeling good about living in the USA but I have started to feel even better after realizing how jealous everyone else are toward the USA. This jealousy confirms me that this is the best country to be a citizen in.

TruthSeeker,
USA is bad? Whose judgement is this? Yours? Keep in mind that it is not mine. Are you supposed to be a h-y-p-o-c-r-i-j-u-d-g-e?
 
Where was the world's "Gardian Angel" when 500,000 Rawandan's were being hacked to death?

Ooops, I 4got, they had no oil! :(

Whirlwind....
 
GuessWho:
I have been feeling good about living in the USA but I have started to feel even better after realizing how jealous everyone else are toward the USA
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This "jealousy" theory is very well worn, and very convenient for you, isn't it? No need to think too deeply about anti-Americanism when you can simply say, "they're jealous, that's all."

If you love your country because it's rich, powerful etc., fine. However, don't assume that others consider, as you do, that traits like these are what make a country admirable and therefore envied. You need to rid yourself of this "jealous" notion and see the big picture.

Let's put it this way. Let’s say you live in a big house, you have a fancy car, you've got a big fat wallet and a bodyguard or two. You're also a hypocritical bigot, an arrogant bully, you turn a blind eye to the truly needy but never fail to give a helping hand to someone with something to give. In short, you're a rather despicable character.

Now when people don’t seem to like you, it would never occur to you to that it might have something to do with your not-so-charming personality. (In your own eyes you do no wrong.) Much easier to skip over that ludicrous idea and tell yourself what Mummy says – “they’re just jealous.” Just say it over and over and over. Like you say yourself, it’ll make you feel better.
 
Actually MacZ,

The US gives more to the needy than anyone in the world, as a US ODA nation, in "trade-not-aid" packages and in charitable contributions by the American populace. We are one of the few UN ODA nations whose contribution is increasing, as oppsoed to the majority who have decreased aid. We are also called upon to send our sons and daughters to die every few years when Europe gets its backside in a sling. China, Russia, Britain, France and Germany have done similar or worse things than the US and for a much longer time (particularly Russia and China who instigated the majority of twentieth century wars in which we've been involved) but you never hear about anti-Russianism, anti-Sinoism, anti-Angloism (unless they happen to side with Americans) anti-Gallism or anti-Germanism. That's because it's personal.

Americans are disliked because of who we are, not because of what we do. It's all right though. We are as singularly unimpressed with the rest of the world and its impotence as they are with us and our might.
 
Paula, please put up a link that compares the level of the Government and charitable contributions so that we can see some fact, instead of opinion.

And for the rest of your next post, could you please tell me, why it is that you think it is okay for, for instance, the USA to get the CIA to ruined democracy in iran, by having Mossadegh taken out of power...?

why it is that you think it is okay for the USA to have interfered in so many countries who neither needed, or requested intervention?

As to the WW1, and WW2, please put up the figures showing how much the United States made out of selling munitions to Europe for the war. And in some cases, arming both sides.

Amazing! You mean you didn't know that the primary reason for USA getting involved in the european theatre for WW2, wasn't that they wanted the Allies to "win"? you mean you didn't know that had USA not assured a victory to their satisfaction, then and there ( since all allie munitions was on tick until the end of the war) , that the American economy would have been nigh on bankrupt, because they were supplying all the allied armies with weapons, and USA was afraid that Germany might win so they then wouldn't have got a cent??

And that would have put USA into a far worse depression than doint nothing. so they thought.....

You didn't know that? Not suprising.

And you didn't know that the only reason there was WW2 was because of the conditons that AMERICA put on Germany, regarding the issues of repayment?

Of course you Americans swing around saying "nga nga, if we hadn't come you would all be talking German."

Not quite so fast.

All you have to do is to read some of the books written by German SS people, to know that though the allies and the USA didn't know it, before the USA finally rolled up to Europe, Hitler was becoming paranoid, and had so alienated his own party and people, that had the USA not come when they did, Hitler and Germany would have imploded in on themselves anyway.

Of course, you will say, "ifs and buts" don't reality make.

Then of course the USA would argue that had that happen, Russia would have taken advantage of the situation, and therefore even had they known that, the USA couldn't have allowed Russia such a big foothold.

To say that the USA saved Europe from WW 2 is like saying to a woman that she was saved by a caesarian unnecessarily that she would NOT have needed had they left her alone, and that intervention saved her life.

The doc doesn't know that the intervention was unnecessary, does s/he?

(been there, refused that, and proved them wrong...so I know the analogy is apt. But had I allowed a caesarian, I would never have known they were wrong.)

also, since you think the rest of the world are simpering pimps, perhaps you might like to tell me how it would sit with the United States of the borders were closed and no importing or exporting into, or out of, the USA was permitted.

Would you then still be "unimpressed" with the rest of the world, who supply the USA with so much of their oil, clothes, shoes, goods, and food?

and last of all, why on earth do you even bother gracing an Australian board if you think everyone except Americans are all impotent whimpering idiots?

Because the attitudes you portray here, aren't going to win friends and influence people.
 
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could you please tell me, why it is that you think it is okay for, for instance, the USA to get the CIA to ruined democracy in iran, by having Mossadegh taken out of power...?
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Because Mossadegh was a passionate, fanatical man, who was so rabidly anti-West that he was willing to commit the political suicide of his country, if necessary, to nationalize the oil production. He did just that, by taking control away from the British, including kicking out the British technicians, despite the fact that the Iranians couldn't operate the Abadan refinery without the British. The result was, while Iran gained control of the oil, it lost the oil payments, which stopped all hope of economic progress. But Mossadegh said he was willing to return his country to the Stone Age if necessary. This disrupted the political life of Iran and in the chaos that followed, Iran's Tudeh Party (Communist) made significant gains, which it expected to see reflected in the upcoming elections. Meanwhile, Mossadegh was offering nothing that would provide a way out of the chaos he created. With the Cold War beginning, and 'communism' being the buzzword, the West had no intention of letting the Kremlin gaining influence in the Mideast.

As to the WW1, and WW2, please put up the figures showing how much the United States made out of selling munitions to Europe for the war. And in some cases, arming both sides.
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How about you putting up some figures showing that the US, in some cases, armed the Axis powers.

And you didn't know that the only reason there was WW2 was because of the conditons that AMERICA put on Germany, regarding the issues of repayment?
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Try again. Woodrow Wilson thought the war reparations the Allies were saddling Germany with were way too harsh. It was the Europeans, particularly the French, that wanted Germany to pay the war debt, mainly to cover their own war debts. Clemenceau wanted even harsher payments than they actually got. Even David Lloyd George thought the French demands were too harsh.

All you have to do is to read some of the books written by German SS people, to know that though the allies and the USA didn't know it, before the USA finally rolled up to Europe, Hitler was becoming paranoid, and had so alienated his own party and people, that had the USA not come when they did, Hitler and Germany would have imploded in on themselves anyway.
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Even if true, and that can't be determined, there was that little matter in the Pacific the US had to deal with.
 
Any amount of money given in aid to third world countries is entirely negated by the level of farming subsidies that we in the west give ourselves.
America = $20 billion
Europe = E45 billion
(These figures are outdated, and have I believe increased further).
This places developing countries in a massively disadvantaged position, making it cheaper to import western products than grow their own. Until we address this issue, giving small amounts of aid is ineffectual and deceptive.
The U.S. also when giving food aid, gives American grain, rather than giving cash which can be used to purchase grain internally, thus boosting flaggin economies.
At the same time, trade agreements prevent many of these countries from providing any subsidies whatsoever to their own farmers.
Obviously, the U.S.A. is not the only guilty party here, but it is the only one of the guilty parties with the political clout to do anything about it, since the E.U. will not remove sunsidies whilst the U.S.A. retains them.
If the U.S.A. can convince Europe to join in its questionable wars, supposedly for the good of the world, can it not also use that power to right a wrong that we in the developed world are imposing on the weaker countries of the world?
 
Hesomagari,

Don't be a silly drama queen. Look up UN ODA figures. It's easy enough. My uncle helped design the Patriot missile and my dad was an engineer who worked on nuclear weapons from the very earliest stages. I come from a long line of military and I'm telling you I know personally that much of what the US does, it does in conjunction with lots of other countries who know the deal, are part of the deal and make lots of money off the deal. Get over your Great Satan obsession. We play the same game that everyone else does but we take the most heat because we're front and center right now and make the easiest target.

Your opinion-based thesis on whether or not Hitler would have died anyway is irrelevant since hindsight is alway 20/20. Hitler may have died but the entire Nazi infrastructure had to be removed. Besides, what do you expect members of the SS to say? Naturally they're going to try and soften the harsh view which history will take of them.
 
To the American's who believe they won WWII single handed, please take a look at the top entry:

Country Military Civilian Total
Soviet Union 8,668,000 16,900,000 25,568,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece 520,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
USA 295,000 295,000

Even the cheese monkies lost more soldiers than you.
 
I suppose you think countries are like little worlds, unconnected, with only their own problems that don't effect anyone else. Come on, its a small world, and problems are better addressed while they are still small, thus the interest in world affairs. Before WWII, the US was more isolationist, but the example of those nasty Germans showed us how unrealistic isolationism was.
 
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Let's put it this way. Let’s say you live in a big house, you have a fancy car, you've got a big fat wallet and a bodyguard or two.
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This part sounds like a good analogy to describe USA so far.

You're also a hypocritical bigot, an arrogant bully, you turn a blind eye to the truly needy but never fail to give a helping hand to someone with something to give. In short, you're a rather despicable character.
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This part sounds awsomely funny. Come on guys, if you want to play judges, then at least try to look at evidence from both sides. Nobody is perfect and everyone will make mistakes so it will not be at all difficult to make anyone look like a devil if only the negatives are considered. If you want to judge someone, besides looking only at the mistakes, allow yourself to also look at the good things. In some instance the USA may be considered a bully but in some other case, USA may look like a protector. If you cannot even try to be fair, do not even attempt to judge!
 
To the American's who believe they won WWII single handed, please take a look at the top entry:

Country Military Civilian Total
Soviet Union 8,668,000 16,900,000 25,568,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece 520,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
USA 295,000 295,000

Even the cheese monkies lost more soldiers than you.
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Good research!

However, imagine if the USA has not entered WWII, then of course USA would have not been included in that list but an additional zero might have to be added to each of the other numbers and at the end, Germany, Italy and Japan would still have won.

The USA of course did not win WWI single handed. Many other countries also contributed but USA was the butts saver.
 
Can you not see, looking at those figures, that some Europeans may feel your attitude is a little arrogant?

Russia could equally make case of having won the war, as could Great Britain (without a strategic base in Europe, how would the American's have joined in at all?)

It is because Great Britain was an island that we were able to hold off for so long, and it is because you were positioned on an entirely different continent that you came in, fresh, at the end. None of this is due to any national characteristic on the part of either the British, or the Americans, and rather than feeling like the 'saviours' of Europe, we should be grateful for the geographical accident that gave us our varying degrees of protection from the worst effects of the war.

We did not fight personally in the war, and should feel no nationalistic pride for what our countries did. I once told a member of the RAF that they were terribly brave, and he must be very proud. He told me that if I had seen what he had done to the German cities, I would not mention pride. I think this Gung Ho talk is only possible for those of us luxurious enough to have never lived through such times.
 
GuessWho said:
TruthSeeker,
USA is bad?
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Yep.

Whose judgement is this? Yours?
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Mine and the rest of the world. They are evil. They killed civilians in my country and in the other south american countries in the 60's in the name of "national security"... :bugeye:

Keep in mind that it is not mine. Are you supposed to be a h-y-p-o-c-r-i-j-u-d-g-e?
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No. I'm just not biased as many of the Americans are.


Not that I believe that all americans are evil. Not at all! I have an american friend now, and I'm going to live with her cause she is just cool. But often, americans are just plain crazy and arrogant :bugeye:
 
Btw, this thread reminds me of a music... :D

You look like an angel....
Walk like an angel....
Talk like an angel....
But I got wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise

[dancing and shaking]
You're the devil in disguise
Oh yes you are
The devil in disguise
... Turururu...
[/dancing and shaking]

One of my favorites... :D :D
(You're The) Devil In Disguise
 
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Leda,

I agree with much of what you say, however, most Americans I know only start having these conversations after being attacked by Europeans in the first place. No one in the US, to my knowledge at least, doubts the streadfastness of the British or their bravery and tenacity. There would have been no Allies to help if the English were made of lesser stuff. The fact that the Nazis were not entirely unwelcome in much of France did nothing to help the Allies' cause. Since Russia did win fighting for their homeland but immediately dropped the Iron Curtain around Eastern Europe, it is an ambiguous victory at best.

Americans had fewer civilian casualties because the war was not fought on our homeland (besides Pearl Harbor). We had fewer military casualties because we fought for only four years. The equipment we brought to bear at the end also leveled the playing field between the Axis and the Allies. It is not quite accurate to say that the US remained neutral, as we placed an oil embargo against Japan and funneled weapons and money to Britain. These are the reasons Japan attacked Pearl harbor and Germany subsequently declared war.

From the point of view of an American, we are damned when we don't intervene and damned when we do. This two hundred year legacy of constant complaining and criticising with little sign of Europe being able to do her bit (say, in Serbia) is the reason Europe has so little influence with Americans nowadays.

The fact remains, that Westerners are allowed to flourish because strong men and women stand ready to do violence on our behalf. It is the utmost hypocrisy to pretend otherwise. While I do not necessarily think the Iraq War was a very good idea, particularly in light of the fact that it has no positive result for our national security, you cannot deny that strong militaries are what keeps harm at bay.
 
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