The right of self defense (use it or loose it)
- Thread starter betavoltaic
- Start date
CutterShane
Registered Member
Fabulous. That way we can get back to good-old-fashioned knife-related deaths, poison-related deaths, and my personal favorite, people who get beaten to death.
I wonder what it is about gun-related death that is so much worse than, say, starvation, bombing, drunk-driving accidents, or the billions of other things that are more worthy of human attention and resolution. Especially when you consider that the majority of gun deaths, BY FAR, are caused by military or para-military personnel, not civilians.
A tyrannical government created by civilian consensus? Doesn't make sense. Every tyrannical government I've ever heard of had a well-developed military to back it up. Even if they use propaganda and other pacification techniques (like the US) there are still generally a bunch of bombs and guns.
When civilians are given power to rule, it generally doesn't result in a tyrannical government. I'm open to looking at evidence to the contrary, if you have any.
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CutterShane
I can only assume you didn't actually read my earlier post. For your benefit, here it is again:
Yes, if there were no guns, people would go back to using knives and sticks. But guns do make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people. Why make it easy? Why not reduce the number of deaths by simply making it harder for people to kill each other?
Betavoltaic
Please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that the picture in my signature draws from a USA government server. I have demonstrated to you quite clearly that www.lbl.gov and www.publiclibraryofscience.org are on different servers, and that the picture comes from the PLOS server. So, care to explain?
I can only assume you didn't actually read my earlier post. For your benefit, here it is again:
Now, to make it easy, plain as day. One on hand (A) you have countries ruled by civilian consensus. On the other hand (B) you have countries ruled by armed tyrrany. A>B, or the first type is greater than the second type. Stated in English: More countries rule by civilian consensus than by govenment tyranny. Countries in which the government rules by force of arms are in the minority. Countries ruled by civilian consent are in the majority. I've said that many different ways now, I hope you get it.
Yes, if there were no guns, people would go back to using knives and sticks. But guns do make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people. Why make it easy? Why not reduce the number of deaths by simply making it harder for people to kill each other?
Betavoltaic
Please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that the picture in my signature draws from a USA government server. I have demonstrated to you quite clearly that www.lbl.gov and www.publiclibraryofscience.org are on different servers, and that the picture comes from the PLOS server. So, care to explain?
CutterShane
Registered Member
I'm not talking about non-tyrannical governments. I'm talking about tyrannical governments that deprive their citizenry of any means of resistance or ability to overthrow the government.
It seems rather stupid to talk about problems in Paradise. There are no problems in Paradise. That's why it's called Paradise ... because it's a paradise with no problems.
So instead, why don't we talk about governments that use overwhelming military might to enforce their will on the rest of the planet, governments that are ranked among the worst offenders of civil liberties because of police brutality against their own civilian population, governments that engage in massive, unabashed propaganda wars to promote their forgone policy decisions instead of allowing "civilian consensus" to have a voice, and governments that pretend to be able to provide the solutions to all the world's problems when (according to your argument) they have out-of-control violence problems at home.
Get it?
Re: Breach of contract in the constitution is alarming
More power than you're allowed in a crisis? This sounds an awful lot like the Emergency Act which allowed Hitler to consolidate his power. You really think that the US could go the same way as Nazi Germany?
What a low opinion of your country you have.
Many other countries have legal and chartorial provisions to prevent a dictatorship arising from their democracy.
The democratic process is there to prevent psychotic megalomaniacs from coming to any office of import.
Is it that easy for due selection to break down?
Does MI5/6 (or your equivalent) not vet polititians?
I should point out also that you appear to harbour a misconception WRT the state of the Monarchy.
The head of the British State has no power.
There are increasing numbers who feel that the monarchy is little more than a tourist attraction for people who want to see Kings, Queens and real castles.
There are many who lose no love to Queen Elizabeth.
Infact, there aren't really any subjects left (in the classical sense).
More power than you're allowed in a crisis? This sounds an awful lot like the Emergency Act which allowed Hitler to consolidate his power. You really think that the US could go the same way as Nazi Germany?
What a low opinion of your country you have.
Many other countries have legal and chartorial provisions to prevent a dictatorship arising from their democracy.
The democratic process is there to prevent psychotic megalomaniacs from coming to any office of import.
Is it that easy for due selection to break down?
Does MI5/6 (or your equivalent) not vet polititians?
I should point out also that you appear to harbour a misconception WRT the state of the Monarchy.
The head of the British State has no power.
There are increasing numbers who feel that the monarchy is little more than a tourist attraction for people who want to see Kings, Queens and real castles.
There are many who lose no love to Queen Elizabeth.
Infact, there aren't really any subjects left (in the classical sense).
I'm still wondering how Betavoltaic got the idea that PLOS is run off a secret evil spying CIA server. I wonder if you are referring to the first set of numbers in the IP or something. If so, I would like to point out that both www.federal.gov.au and www.mcdonalds.com.au begin with 203.
I would like to point out that both www.federal.gov.au and www.mcdonalds.com.au begin with 203.
Oh. My. God!
You mean that McDonalds is a secret front for the Australian Gvt?!?
Oh. My. God!
You mean that McDonalds is a secret front for the Australian Gvt?!?
ESP
Yep. And each time you eat a McChunders burger, it carries a tiny electronic bug into your guts, and it burrows through the intestinal wall and attaches itself to your spine, and broadcasts a signal to let the government know what you're thinking...
Yep. And each time you eat a McChunders burger, it carries a tiny electronic bug into your guts, and it burrows through the intestinal wall and attaches itself to your spine, and broadcasts a signal to let the government know what you're thinking...
Does nobody knows?
I disscussed this in other threads and I have no intention of doing so again,...
Betavoltaïc is right about many things altough I not intent to agree on evrything,...
Let me explain: this world is governed by groups of intrests: the lobby's: industrial lobby's Nuclear lobby's ect,...
they indeed take 'us' (the people) where they want to go,...like slaves they command 'us' at a wink of an eye,...in the direction of MORE profit,...
Do you really think that we live in a democratic world? or state for that matter?
Let me open your eyes : DEMOCRASY: is a system ,...ruled by the people (in wich case: is represented by a few who have their own agenda) FOR that verry same people: now how come (you think) that the part on "FOR the people" is taken?
You really think that the system is there for the people that we all are? You're maby convinced by a set of toughts that is implemented on how you SHOULD think,...but give it a tought for a year or 25,....then we'll see,...I'm patient,...are you?
No,...it's not a democrasy that we live in,...it's an economic system in wich you can 'buy' yourself a position.
And the better you are in killing other bussinesses,...the greater your own company grows,...what you say? anti-monopoly trust? hahaha don't make me laugh again,...: it's clear that a lot of bussinesses are owned by the same state for that matter,...what you say? privatisation? hahaha you're really funny: that is only a strategic bussiness move to protect the bussiness itself from direct influence,...but is still ruled by the same trustees,...if not: then the board of direction is changed in order to cover up the trace wich leads back to it's origin of bussiness: being the bussiness of the intrest of the state,...
what you say? free-trade? hahaha,...now I'm falling of my chair: then why is it that all this benificial inventions are beign patented,...so that it will STAY in the hands of the powerfull: and NOT the people that surely could use anything that improves life and it's standards. And PLEASE just take my word for it: I'm not going to elaborate about anti-globalism here,...
Again and again you see that the people are not intended to grow,...their minds,...nor their wallets,...nor their families,...they are clearly ruled by hirarchy,..and classes,...wich in turn is analised by various Dr. and Proffessors in antropology as well as filosophy and other : as FASCHISTIC!!!
Now that must be clearly seen by all people,...
I don't understand that there are still people buying that shit there trying to make evryone believe in some sort of a concept of democrasy,...? hahaha don't make me laugh !!!
It's a joke in your town just like 911. P.E.nr.1remember?
There is substancial evidence enough to draw the conclusion that even THAT was staged,...how stupidious or horrific that may sound,...
No: I'm not a conspiracy theorist altough that's what you would be led to believe to describe me for the elaboration on a certain vieuw-point that I'm giving,...wich is a 'vieuw-point' and has nothing to do with what or who I am,...
Before I talked about Mind control and how it influences all of the lives of the people in this world.
But sofar only a few have begun to open their eyes,...
I know it must be verry hard on you all to believe in a horror,...
but believe me when I say to you: reality IS horror.
Exept when you don't walk out of line that is: so doing what your being told to do: and especially : don't ask questions and don't be sceptic on the set of values and rules wich they equipped you with.
In this way : I can state that there are a lot of things that I saw and that I can't even begin to explain unless there is real interest,...
because you wouldn't believe the shit that our fathers grand-fathers and great-grand-for-fathers went trough just to be seduced by their feelings of love that eventually created 'us' 'their' children their offspring.
This world is partially (verry big part) ruled by patterns of existence in wich you have to stay astray but yet to devellop some sort of a position towards 'it' (life).
That is not reached in my opinion by any state on this world by systems that are socalled : 'democratic' ,...
I would even go that far to state that it's all an pretty hypocritical situation that people are in,...and as long as there is some bussiness doing profit on the heads of other people: it's clear that it's UNFAIR trade,...
Thx
:bugeye:
I disscussed this in other threads and I have no intention of doing so again,...
Betavoltaïc is right about many things altough I not intent to agree on evrything,...
Let me explain: this world is governed by groups of intrests: the lobby's: industrial lobby's Nuclear lobby's ect,...
they indeed take 'us' (the people) where they want to go,...like slaves they command 'us' at a wink of an eye,...in the direction of MORE profit,...
Do you really think that we live in a democratic world? or state for that matter?
Let me open your eyes : DEMOCRASY: is a system ,...ruled by the people (in wich case: is represented by a few who have their own agenda) FOR that verry same people: now how come (you think) that the part on "FOR the people" is taken?
You really think that the system is there for the people that we all are? You're maby convinced by a set of toughts that is implemented on how you SHOULD think,...but give it a tought for a year or 25,....then we'll see,...I'm patient,...are you?
No,...it's not a democrasy that we live in,...it's an economic system in wich you can 'buy' yourself a position.
And the better you are in killing other bussinesses,...the greater your own company grows,...what you say? anti-monopoly trust? hahaha don't make me laugh again,...: it's clear that a lot of bussinesses are owned by the same state for that matter,...what you say? privatisation? hahaha you're really funny: that is only a strategic bussiness move to protect the bussiness itself from direct influence,...but is still ruled by the same trustees,...if not: then the board of direction is changed in order to cover up the trace wich leads back to it's origin of bussiness: being the bussiness of the intrest of the state,...
what you say? free-trade? hahaha,...now I'm falling of my chair: then why is it that all this benificial inventions are beign patented,...so that it will STAY in the hands of the powerfull: and NOT the people that surely could use anything that improves life and it's standards. And PLEASE just take my word for it: I'm not going to elaborate about anti-globalism here,...
Again and again you see that the people are not intended to grow,...their minds,...nor their wallets,...nor their families,...they are clearly ruled by hirarchy,..and classes,...wich in turn is analised by various Dr. and Proffessors in antropology as well as filosophy and other : as FASCHISTIC!!!
Now that must be clearly seen by all people,...
I don't understand that there are still people buying that shit there trying to make evryone believe in some sort of a concept of democrasy,...? hahaha don't make me laugh !!!
It's a joke in your town just like 911. P.E.nr.1remember?
There is substancial evidence enough to draw the conclusion that even THAT was staged,...how stupidious or horrific that may sound,...
No: I'm not a conspiracy theorist altough that's what you would be led to believe to describe me for the elaboration on a certain vieuw-point that I'm giving,...wich is a 'vieuw-point' and has nothing to do with what or who I am,...
Before I talked about Mind control and how it influences all of the lives of the people in this world.
But sofar only a few have begun to open their eyes,...
I know it must be verry hard on you all to believe in a horror,...
but believe me when I say to you: reality IS horror.
Exept when you don't walk out of line that is: so doing what your being told to do: and especially : don't ask questions and don't be sceptic on the set of values and rules wich they equipped you with.
In this way : I can state that there are a lot of things that I saw and that I can't even begin to explain unless there is real interest,...
because you wouldn't believe the shit that our fathers grand-fathers and great-grand-for-fathers went trough just to be seduced by their feelings of love that eventually created 'us' 'their' children their offspring.
This world is partially (verry big part) ruled by patterns of existence in wich you have to stay astray but yet to devellop some sort of a position towards 'it' (life).
That is not reached in my opinion by any state on this world by systems that are socalled : 'democratic' ,...
I would even go that far to state that it's all an pretty hypocritical situation that people are in,...and as long as there is some bussiness doing profit on the heads of other people: it's clear that it's UNFAIR trade,...
Thx
:bugeye:
I, ik, me, Ich, moi,...tsss,...
Look for yourself: I'm not willing to be talked into another
-yes/no that's not truth/it is truth , there's no evidence/there is evidince edition of your scepticism Goofyfish,...
No tricks here,...
"World War Three will be a guerilla information war, with no division between military and civilian participation."
-- Marshall McLuhan
Look for yourself: I'm not willing to be talked into another
-yes/no that's not truth/it is truth , there's no evidence/there is evidince edition of your scepticism Goofyfish,...
No tricks here,...
"World War Three will be a guerilla information war, with no division between military and civilian participation."
-- Marshall McLuhan
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Fukushi - still upset about the Drake's Equation "discussion"?
In other words, you have no credible evidence;
no evidence that stands up to scrutiny by others.
We should just believe whatever you say. I understand.
Peace.
--- Edit: spelling ---
In other words, you have no credible evidence;
no evidence that stands up to scrutiny by others.
We should just believe whatever you say. I understand.
Peace.
--- Edit: spelling ---
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For everyone
Can i just say that the queen can only sack the PM and the goverment at the recomedation of the govener genral. The queen can only sack the Govener genral at the request of the PM. That is the ONLY power she has (personaly i want a republic but thats beside the point)
Now we have only 2 levels of goverment (fedral that is) to your 3
The house of reps (which the PM MUST be a member)
The Senart (or the house of review)
Bills are made in the house of reps
Then they are checked by teh senart
The house of reps is domanated by the Labor and Libral party (the two main partys)
The senart is dominated by MINOR partys who hold the balance of power
This means that the senart is NOT just a rubber stamp
THIS is how we are protected.
The same system is copied in the states (like Victoria)
The other protection is the High court
This deals mainly with constitutional matters
If a Law is felt to breach the consitution it can be challanged (by ANYONE) in the High court
Can i just say that the queen can only sack the PM and the goverment at the recomedation of the govener genral. The queen can only sack the Govener genral at the request of the PM. That is the ONLY power she has (personaly i want a republic but thats beside the point)
Now we have only 2 levels of goverment (fedral that is) to your 3
The house of reps (which the PM MUST be a member)
The Senart (or the house of review)
Bills are made in the house of reps
Then they are checked by teh senart
The house of reps is domanated by the Labor and Libral party (the two main partys)
The senart is dominated by MINOR partys who hold the balance of power
This means that the senart is NOT just a rubber stamp
THIS is how we are protected.
The same system is copied in the states (like Victoria)
The other protection is the High court
This deals mainly with constitutional matters
If a Law is felt to breach the consitution it can be challanged (by ANYONE) in the High court
hahahadrake?
No drake equasion here pall:
Propagandists love short-cuts -- particularly those which short-circuit rational thought. They encourage this by agitating emotions, by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending the rules of logic. As history shows, they can be quite successful.
Your technique links a person, or idea, to a negative symbol> the socalled lack of proof in this case.
The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence.
Thx
:bugeye:
No drake equasion here pall:
Propagandists love short-cuts -- particularly those which short-circuit rational thought. They encourage this by agitating emotions, by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending the rules of logic. As history shows, they can be quite successful.
Your technique links a person, or idea, to a negative symbol> the socalled lack of proof in this case.
The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence.
Thx
:bugeye:
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about power:
When someone talks to us about democracy, we immediately think of our own definite ideas about democracy, the ideas and values we learned at home, at school, and/or in church. Our first and natural reaction is to assume that the speaker is using the word in our sense, that he believes as we do on this important subject. This lowers our 'sales resistance' and makes us far less suspicious than we ought to be when the speaker begins telling us the things 'the United States (or any other power for that matter) must do to preserve democracy (hypocrasy) and Freedom (to stay in power).'
As generally understood, propaganda is opinion expressed for the purpose of influencing actions of individuals or groups...
with offcourse use of the media,...now why would a democrasy need propaganda for nèh?
Because people are to swallow everyting 'they' come up with, without questioning? And why should a serious question need to be critisised and be dismissed as clearly the questioning itself bears no truth or proof,...
"It is essential in a democratic society that young people and adults learn how to think, learn how to make up their minds. They must learn how to think independently, and they must learn how to think together. They must come to conclusions, but at the same time they must recognize the right of other men to come to opposite conclusions.
I recon your other opinion,...but you do not recon mine,...a pitty.
When someone talks to us about democracy, we immediately think of our own definite ideas about democracy, the ideas and values we learned at home, at school, and/or in church. Our first and natural reaction is to assume that the speaker is using the word in our sense, that he believes as we do on this important subject. This lowers our 'sales resistance' and makes us far less suspicious than we ought to be when the speaker begins telling us the things 'the United States (or any other power for that matter) must do to preserve democracy (hypocrasy) and Freedom (to stay in power).'
As generally understood, propaganda is opinion expressed for the purpose of influencing actions of individuals or groups...
with offcourse use of the media,...now why would a democrasy need propaganda for nèh?
Because people are to swallow everyting 'they' come up with, without questioning? And why should a serious question need to be critisised and be dismissed as clearly the questioning itself bears no truth or proof,...
"It is essential in a democratic society that young people and adults learn how to think, learn how to make up their minds. They must learn how to think independently, and they must learn how to think together. They must come to conclusions, but at the same time they must recognize the right of other men to come to opposite conclusions.
I recon your other opinion,...but you do not recon mine,...a pitty.
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CutterShane
Registered Member
Re: Re: Breach of contract in the constitution is alarming
The truth of the matter is that what we now accept as "democracy" around the world is actually a plutocracy, or rule by the rich.
Not only are rich people rich, but they are smart, and they have a lot of resources at their disposal. And I believe it is generally accepted that they aren't the most moral of people. What, then, do you think it is that protects poor (or not-rich) people from rich people? The government? Does the government work for the people against the rich, or for the rich against the people?
If you believe that the government works for the poor against the rich, then that is communism. McCarthyism and massive propaganda pretty well took care of that ... nobody even really understands what communism is about, these days. So we can eliminate that out of the picture.
John Dewey said that government is the shadow cast over society by big business. I believe that is a very accurate depiction of the industrial world. Not only does that distract our attention away from the true centers of power, like big corporate conglomerates, but you can actually blame the poor for their own plight, ostensibly because they aren't electing the right people.
Though America has re-defined democracy to mean that everybody starts out with the same access to these things, and then where they wind up is up to them. But even this isn't true, as is evident from things like inheritance, schooling, racism, and the many other barriers between the classes.
I recommend that we look at monarchy as symbolic. A group of people who's "job" is to embody nobility. Whether they do a good job of that or not, I'm not qualified to say.
You have to identify problem areas before you can improve them. I suppose you recommend that we simply accept anything negative in our society, simply to avoid being negative?
I don't think that anybody seriously believes that a dictatorship will arise from a democracy. You're trying to erect a straw man.
The truth of the matter is that what we now accept as "democracy" around the world is actually a plutocracy, or rule by the rich.
Not only are rich people rich, but they are smart, and they have a lot of resources at their disposal. And I believe it is generally accepted that they aren't the most moral of people. What, then, do you think it is that protects poor (or not-rich) people from rich people? The government? Does the government work for the people against the rich, or for the rich against the people?
If you believe that the government works for the poor against the rich, then that is communism. McCarthyism and massive propaganda pretty well took care of that ... nobody even really understands what communism is about, these days. So we can eliminate that out of the picture.
John Dewey said that government is the shadow cast over society by big business. I believe that is a very accurate depiction of the industrial world. Not only does that distract our attention away from the true centers of power, like big corporate conglomerates, but you can actually blame the poor for their own plight, ostensibly because they aren't electing the right people.
Actually, the purpose of democracy is to guarantee equality of outcome. That is, to guarantee that everybody winds up with the same access to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I don't see that happening anywhere.
Though America has re-defined democracy to mean that everybody starts out with the same access to these things, and then where they wind up is up to them. But even this isn't true, as is evident from things like inheritance, schooling, racism, and the many other barriers between the classes.
Are you from a monarchic country? If so, it would appear that you have a pretty low opinion of your own country. Or you might be speaking out of typical American ignorance and prejudice.
I recommend that we look at monarchy as symbolic. A group of people who's "job" is to embody nobility. Whether they do a good job of that or not, I'm not qualified to say.
CutterShane
Registered Member
Propaganda
In the early 20th Century, a man named Edward Bernays wrote a book called "Propaganda" (propaganda wasn't a dirty word back then ... it only obtained infamy after Hitler realized its importance during WWII ... the US learned a lot about propaganda from Hitler).
In this book, Bernays claimed that not only is propaganda acceptable in a democratic society, but that propaganda is essential to a working democracy.
The very idea horrifies me ... but bear with me ...
The basic idea is that the masses are generally unintelligent and unmotivated. However, it must be recognized that the public has a great deal of power, power that is largely untapped because it has no focus or direction. Public power can express itself positively, through cooperation in/with the government, or negatively through revolution and civil disobedience.
So that's the role of the government ... to give that power focus and direction. To make people feel that they are working and paying taxes for a good reason, even when those reasons aren't their own personal reasons.
So what you wind up with are the "wise" and "enlightened" statesmen on the hill, and they debate and decide what is the best thing to do. Then they set about the task of convincing the public, as well, that what they decide to do is the right thing to do, through the machinery of propaganda.
So the basic idea (and again, I disagree in the strongest possible terms) is that without propaganda we would not have a democracy ... we would have a "mobocracy" where decisions are made by the unintelligent and uninformed masses.
For anybody that disagrees with me, this is all well-documented and very forthright (at least at the outset ... it has become less honest and open with time). Just do a little research and, in particular, read Bernay's book "Propaganda" ... if you can find it. It's a tough one to get your hands on, for obvious reasons. But it's out there.
Here's some scary information for you:
In the early 20th Century, a man named Edward Bernays wrote a book called "Propaganda" (propaganda wasn't a dirty word back then ... it only obtained infamy after Hitler realized its importance during WWII ... the US learned a lot about propaganda from Hitler).
In this book, Bernays claimed that not only is propaganda acceptable in a democratic society, but that propaganda is essential to a working democracy.
The very idea horrifies me ... but bear with me ...
The basic idea is that the masses are generally unintelligent and unmotivated. However, it must be recognized that the public has a great deal of power, power that is largely untapped because it has no focus or direction. Public power can express itself positively, through cooperation in/with the government, or negatively through revolution and civil disobedience.
So that's the role of the government ... to give that power focus and direction. To make people feel that they are working and paying taxes for a good reason, even when those reasons aren't their own personal reasons.
So what you wind up with are the "wise" and "enlightened" statesmen on the hill, and they debate and decide what is the best thing to do. Then they set about the task of convincing the public, as well, that what they decide to do is the right thing to do, through the machinery of propaganda.
So the basic idea (and again, I disagree in the strongest possible terms) is that without propaganda we would not have a democracy ... we would have a "mobocracy" where decisions are made by the unintelligent and uninformed masses.
For anybody that disagrees with me, this is all well-documented and very forthright (at least at the outset ... it has become less honest and open with time). Just do a little research and, in particular, read Bernay's book "Propaganda" ... if you can find it. It's a tough one to get your hands on, for obvious reasons. But it's out there.