The resonance of Chemistry

[Bishadi]

This subject is a touph one to convey since very little is presented in a quantum chemistry form.

but there is one area that shares a definite promise

Chlorophyll is vital for photosynthesis, which allows plants to obtain energy from light.

Chlorophyll molecules are specifically arranged in and around pigment protein complexes called photosystems which are embedded in the thylakoid membranes of chloroplasts. In these complexes, chlorophyll serves two primary functions. The function of the vast majority of chlorophyll (up to several hundred molecules per photosystem) is to absorb light and transfer that light energy by resonance energy transfer to a specific chlorophyll pair in the reaction center of the photosystems. Because of chlorophyll’s selectivity regarding the wavelength of light it absorbs, areas of a leaf containing the molecule will appear green.

P680

P680, or Photosystem II primary donor, (where P stands for pigment) is a group of pigments associated with photosystem II and consists of 4 chlorophyll a molecules[1]. These four molecules are excitonically coupled which means that they effectively act as a single entity, i.e. they are excited as if they were a single molecule. The 680 number is its absorption maximum in the red part of the visible spectrum (680 nm). The primary donor receives excitation energy either by absorbing a photon of suitable frequency (colour) or by excitation energy transfer from other chlorophylls within photosystem II. During excitation an electron is excited to a higher energy level. This electron is subsequently captured by the primary electron acceptor, a pheophytin molecule located within photosystem II near P680. The oxidized P680 (P680+) is subsequently reduced by an electron originating from water (via Oxygen evolving complex).

P680 is the strongest biological oxidizing agent known. It has an estimated redox potential of ~1.3 V

The shares that the resonate energy transfer is vital to all plant life.

Would the bridge to observe this method of energy conveyance be too much to address in simple biological forms?

Such as plant life is pretty simple on the evolutionary tree, it would seem apparent that all life would be using a resonant form of energy transfer between structures.

 

[Trippy]

This subject is a touph one to convey since very little is presented in a quantum chemistry form.

but there is one area that shares a definite promise

What point are you trying to make here? Any graduate who has majored in chemistry is expected to have mastered at least the basics of quantum chemistry.

The shares that the resonate energy transfer is vital to all plant life.

Please clarify what you mean by "Resonate energy transfer"

Would the bridge to observe this method of energy conveyance be too much to address in simple biological forms?

Please rephrase this question to clarify the point you are addressing.

Such as plant life is pretty simple on the evolutionary tree, it would seem apparent that all life would be using a resonant form of energy transfer between structures.

Apparently not, because it was the first thing that life mastered (photosynthetic prokaryotes).

 

[Bishadi]

What point are you trying to make here? Any graduate who has majored in chemistry is expected to have mastered at least the basics of quantum chemistry.

then why do you ask this below?

Please clarify what you mean by "Resonate energy transfer"

Seems all plants do it, and you state you "have mastered at least the basics of quantum chemistry"

you should be telling us what it means.

 

[Trippy]

then why do you ask this below? Seems all plants do it, and you state you "have mastered at least the basics of quantum chemistry"

you should be telling us what it means.

Because the phrase, and the question, as they are worded make little or no sense, so i'm asking you to reword them in a way that does.

The reason I want you to clarify what you mean is that we can not proceed with anything approaching a rational discussion until we can both agree upon the meanings of the phrases you're using and the questions your asking.

 

[Bishadi]

Because the phrase, and the question, as they are worded make little or no sense, so i'm asking you to reword them in a way that does.

because you don't read

you asked me what a resonant energy transfer is, and in the first post the quote FROM the PUBLICATION used the term.

read the post and try and work through the idea before commenting

if you do not know the words and terms, look them up

The reason I want you to clarify what you mean is that we can not proceed with anything approaching a rational discussion until we can both agree upon the meanings of the phrases you're using and the questions your asking.

and you sound so sincere but the fact is you be a lousy person to discuss with because unless the material is found in YOUR book, then nothing of current or research can ever be observed without you being a fool

skippy you make yourself obsolete and don't even realize it

 

[Trippy]

because you don't read

you asked me what a resonant energy transfer is, and in the first post the quote FROM the PUBLICATION used the term.

read the post and try and work through the idea before commenting

if you do not know the words and terms, look them up




and you sound so sincere but the fact is you be a lousy person to discuss with because unless the material is found in YOUR book, then nothing of current or research can ever be observed without you being a fool

skippy you make yourself obsolete and don't even realize it

One can only assume you're talking about Förster Energy Transfer, because thus far you've refused to clarify what you're actually wanting to talk about, inspite of having being asked several times.

Forster Energy Transfer is a long range interaction between electric dipoles, akin to to pendulum clocks on a wall, essentially it involves an overlap of the emission spectrum of one chromophore, and the absorption spectrum of another chromophore.

**Moderator Note**
I've given you chances to clarify whether or not you're wanting to discuss Förster Energy Transfer (long range interaction between electric dipoles), thus far you have resisted, and instead resorted to abuse and name calling. You've already been warned publically about name calling, consider this your second warning. Continue down this path, and I will close the thread on the grounds that you are trolling and flaming.

 

[Bishadi]

One can only assume you're talking about Förster Energy Transfer, because thus far you've refused to clarify what you're actually wanting to talk about, inspite of having being asked several times.

**Moderator Note**

Forster Energy Transfer is a long range interaction between electric dipoles,

not sure what that means

maybe FET is between molecular structures, and they may be biased but the energy is an em transfer as far as i can tell

akin to to pendulum clocks on a wall,

no idea how that works with FET

essentially it involves an overlap of the emission spectrum

spectrum.... a range? The pub above shares a single wavelength

of one chromophore, and the absorption spectrum of another chromophore.

what spectrum?

 

[Trippy]

not sure what that means

maybe FET is between molecular structures, and they may be biased but the energy is an em transfer as far as i can tell

It means exactly what it says it, in otherwords, that the energy transfer you're asking about occurs at a distance, and is an interaction between dipoles (but 'transmission' does not occur without a 'receptor')

no idea how that works with FET

I didn't say it did, only that the processes were similar.

spectrum.... a range? The pub above shares a single wavelength

Yes, and?

Think about it for just a minute. If I have two overlapping spectra, than there is going to be a particular wavelength at which transfer is most efficient, which is the wavelength of interest, and the wavelength that gets reported.

what spectrum?

If you didn't chop my senteces in half in a way that changed their meaning, you might get on a little better.

Again.

FET occurs between a pair of chromophores when there is an overlap between their absorption and emission spectra.

 

[Bishadi]

It means exactly what it says it, in otherwords, that the energy transfer you're asking about occurs at a distance, and is an interaction between dipoles (but 'transmission' does not occur without a 'receptor')

Can you share something to expand this definition you are stating?

I didn't say it did, only that the processes were similar.

i see no similarity of a pendulem and a FET interraction in which the thread is about how an exchange of energy (resonance) is observed in chemistry

Yes, and?

.... pub shares a 680 nm transfer, (i think that is why the molecule is named P680, perhaps for a single 'f', not a 'spectrum')

Think about it for just a minute. If I have two overlapping spectra,

What spectra.........? A photo is not like a light being on. Are you suggesting the resonance (photon causing the mass to resonate)?

Again.

FET occurs between a pair of chromophores when there is an overlap between their absorption and emission spectra.

Can i ask, is the exchange from molecule a and b in one photon or 2? If you mean 'the field's of the 2 resonant masses are overlaping', then that would make sense.

i can't get over that 'spectra' usage.... that is a range, based on a variety of shell states. (quantum jump) and each level is a single photon release/obsorption.

So now, if we on the same page; it cold be summarized that one molecule can transfer (FET) it's photon (resonant state) to another, over a distance (membrane for example).

have we found any common ground?

 

[Bishadi]

anyone seen Trippy?

:shrug:

 

[Trippy]

Can you share something to expand this definition you are stating?

Ask a specific question.

i see no similarity of a pendulem and a FET interraction in which the thread is about how an exchange of energy (resonance) is observed in chemistry

Really?

.... pub shares a 680 nm transfer, (i think that is why the molecule is named P680, perhaps for a single 'f', not a 'spectrum')

No, it's called P680 because that's where its peak absorption occurs - 680 nm, which is in the red part of the spectrum, hence the green apperance of plants.

Essentially P680 is an excitationally coupled tetramer of chlorophyll a (Simnply means that it acts as one big molecule).

What spectra.........? A photo is not like a light being on. Are you suggesting the resonance (photon causing the mass to resonate)?

Any molecule has an absorption and emission spectrum, all coloured molecules absorb in the visible region of the spectrum. These spectra are not nice tidy spectra that you might be expecting if you've been looking at atomic emission and absorption spectra.

Can i ask, is the exchange from molecule a and b in one photon or 2? If you mean 'the field's of the 2 resonant masses are overlaping', then that would make sense.

It involves no actual photons.
And no, I don't mean 'the fields of the two resonant masses are overlapping' as that phrase is (or at least seems to me to be) largely nonsensical.

i can't get over that 'spectra' usage....

I suggest you do so.

that is a range, based on a variety of shell states. (quantum jump) and each level is a single photon release/obsorption.

Not exactly, but almost, there are a range of factors you're not considering (for example, molecular orbitals versus atomic ones).

So now, if we on the same page; it cold be summarized that one molecule can transfer (FET) it's photon (resonant state) to another, over a distance (membrane for example).

No. It's substantially more complicated than that, and it can only occur if you have two molecules where the emission spectrum of one overlaps with the absorption spectrum of another.

have we found any common ground?

Apparently not.

 

[Trippy]

anyone seen Trippy?

:shrug:

No.

(Actually, i've been around).

 

[Bishadi]

No.

(Actually, i've been around).

enjoying life?

i would hope you had not lost the thread(s) we were in discussion with.

all three come together and if we can work on a few items perhaps you can share the 'ideas' with others to help in your teaching

i can be considered the worst student on earth, but you could be helping me a whole bunch

Originally Posted by Bishadi


So now, if we on the same page; it cold be summarized that one molecule can transfer (FET) it's photon (resonant state) to another, over a distance (membrane for example).

and you said

"No. It's substantially more complicated than that, and it can only occur if you have two molecules where the emission spectrum of one overlaps with the absorption spectrum of another "

i read it as

the publication is talking about a molecule (4) that combines, that appears to be the structure, as a unit, to convey the 680nm wave length, which to me is 'photon' or an energy 'state' at a specific 'f'.

here it is

P680, or Photosystem II primary donor, (where P stands for pigment) is a group of pigments associated with photosystem II and consists of 4 chlorophyll a molecules[1]. These four molecules are excitonically coupled which means that they effectively act as a single entity, i.e. they are excited as if they were a single molecule. The 680 number is its absorption maximum in the red part of the visible spectrum (680 nm). The primary donor receives excitation energy either by absorbing a photon of suitable frequency (colour) or by excitation energy transfer from other chlorophylls within photosystem II.

am i seeing something different than you?

 

[Trippy]

and you said

"No. It's substantially more complicated than that, and it can only occur if you have two molecules where the emission spectrum of one overlaps with the absorption spectrum of another "

i read it as

the publication is talking about a molecule (4) that combines, that appears to be the structure, as a unit, to convey the 680nm wave length, which to me is 'photon' or an energy 'state' at a specific 'f'.

here it is

am i seeing something different than you?

Yes, and i've repeated myself several times now - the wavelengths cited are the wavelengths at which the absorption or transfer peaks, in otherwords, it's the wavelength that the absorption or transfer is at its most efficient.

Chlorophyll A, or P680 will still absorb a photon with a wavelength of 670 nm, it just does not do so as effieicntly as a photon with a wavelength of 680 nm. Go back and take another look at the spectrum I posted and you will see this, it's not a series of discrete maxima, or lines, it's a curve, a continuum.

 

[Bishadi]

Yes, and i've repeated myself several times now - the wavelengths cited are the wavelengths at which the absorption or transfer peaks, in otherwords, it's the wavelength that the absorption or transfer is at its most efficient.

i remember saying this
".... pub shares a 680 nm transfer, (i think that is why the molecule is named P680, perhaps for a single 'f', not a 'spectrum')

.....but we had to run around the room before you caught up :bugeye:

Chlorophyll A, or P680 will still absorb a photon with a wavelength of 670 nm, it just does not do so as effieicntly as a photon with a wavelength of 680 nm. Go back and take another look at the spectrum I posted and you will see this, it's not a series of discrete maxima, or lines, it's a curve, a continuum.

sorry,

that is the threshold wavelength for the reaction (per se electron release) of P680 (the only wavelength for the process to occur)

that's why they call it P680....

How is light energy transformed into reduction chemical energy?
Light energy may be directly absorbed by the P700 or P680 reduced molecule.

P700 can ONLY directly absorb light energy of a wavelength of 700 nm; P680 can ONLY directly absorb light energy of wavelength of 680 nm

why not go over and finish the other threads if you think you can keep up, seems this one was too much

:shrug:

 

[Trippy]

Wikipedia: P680

The 680 number is its absorption maximum in the red part of the visible spectrum (680 nm).

P680

P680 is the reaction-center chlorophyll a molecule associated with photosystem II. Its absorption spectrum peaks at 680 nm, which is in the red part of the spectrum.

P680

PSII cannot use photons of a wavelength greater than 680 nm, and is thus sometimes called P680.

P680

this provides an action spectrum which establishes that the lowest-energy excited-state of P680 in oxygen-evolving PSII cores extends to 700 nm. The absorption in this region is dominated by CP47, indicating the underlying P680 absorption is very weak.

P680

Upon absorption of a photon, P680 is excited to P680*...

And the list goes on and on and on, and they all say the same thing, which is what I am saying.

The name P680 is derived from P for pigment, and the fact that it has an absorption PEAK at 680 nm, also note that in not one of them will you find the phrase "Absorbs a photon of wavelength 680 nm" you will only ever find the statement "Absorbs a photon" because the statement "Absorbs a photon of wavelength 680 nm" IS WRONG.

(Wrong in the sense that P680 will absorb some energy from ANY photon with wavelength less than 700 nm).

 

[Bishadi]

Ask a specific question.

i did

Originally Posted by Bishadi
Can i ask, is the exchange from molecule a and b in one photon or 2?

and you said

It involves no actual photons.
And no, I don't mean 'the fields of the two resonant masses are overlapping' as that phrase is (or at least seems to me to be) largely nonsensical.

your all over the place

then you post this quote

Upon absorption of a photon, P680 is excited to P680*...

suggesting WHEN is absorbs 680, then it becomes a P680*........ basically the structure with the threshold state upon the mass..........

trippy, it seems you are just learning this material...

 

[Trippy]

i did

Originally Posted by Bishadi
Can i ask, is the exchange from molecule a and b in one photon or 2?

and you said

your all over the place

As you yourself quoted, I answered the question. There are no 'real' photons involved in the transfer, it involves a single virtual photon. It's an oscillation of an electric field that occurs in a space that is smaller than the photon that might ordinarily be generated (only if there is no receptor molecule, then no photon is generated).

then you post this quote

suggesting WHEN is absorbs 680, then it becomes a P680*........ basically the structure with the threshold state upon the mass..........

No, it has nothing to do with the 'threshold state upon mass' whatever that actually means.

P680 denotes the ground state of the P680 molecule, while P680* is used to denote one of the molecules excited states.

trippy, it seems you are just learning this material...

I've given you ample opportunities to engage in a meaningful dialogue, and so far, for the most part all you have had to offer is very thinly veiled abuse.

Continue down this path and I WILL move this thread to the pseudoscience section.

 

[Bishadi]

As you yourself quoted, I answered the question. There are no 'real' photons involved in the transfer,

just fake ones..... i suppose the energy called a photon (particle physics), or purely an electric and magnetic field at perpendicular planes (em/light) is a fignewton of the imagination?

it don't exist as real, perhaps because you do not want to step up and just convey what the experiment is representing.............

it involves a single virtual photon.

but you said before........... no photon and it is a range (spectrum)

It's an oscillation of an electric field that occurs in a space that is smaller than the photon

you mean the resonance that is at 680 nm

i guess it is smaller than a radio f, which some are larger than the earth (you smaught)

that might ordinarily be generated (only if there is no receptor molecule, then no photon is generated).

what happened to conservation? Or better still, i did not know p680 came with a pratt and whitney 'generator' or is it a briggs and straton... can you point out the chemistry of how a p680 generates energy

i thought it was the wavelength captured from the sun for photosynthesis

but hey, you the chemist on this section

No, it has nothing to do with the 'threshold state upon mass' whatever that actually means.

see QED or even the little unknown paper by Einstein........ something about 'photoelectric effect'

P680 denotes the ground state of the P680 molecule, while P680* is used to denote one of the molecules excited states.

so when p680 has a 680nm photon upon the structure, it is called a p680*

ooops....P680* (forgot the caps)

I've given you ample opportunities to engage in a meaningful dialogue,

it ain't me that is being rude, you are!

most every line you post, has been put in the trash

Continue down this path and I WILL move this thread to the pseudoscience section.

how can evidence be psuedo?

 

[Bishadi]

As you yourself quoted, I answered the question. There are no 'real' photons involved in the transfer, it involves a single virtual photon. It's an oscillation of an electric field that occurs in a space that is smaller than the photon that might ordinarily be generated (only if there is no receptor molecule, then no photon is generated).

this whole thread was to inquire about the 'resonance of chemistry'

and to read this thread, shares that there is more going on in biological systems than one frame of chemical descriptions!

so to the students out there; you have a whole new layer to pay attention to

enjoy